Survey Results: Origins and Evolution

Originally posted by spikey
You're obviously clever and thoughtful poster Slayer69, but read what you have put together in your reply and think about it for a moment longer, but from this angle...

Clever?
This is how I've always felt and thought. This topic is just a place to post it. But I'll take that as a compliment.

If your belief in a god who is and always was, who is as you say truly omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient..how does that reconcile with a Great flood taken literally by the religious to be an event deliberately initiated by god, upon our planet and it's 'unworthy' inhabitants, apart from a single 'worthy' family?

I believe it was the last of the ice age melt off that flooded coast lines all throughout the world at the earliest points in recorded history. To them "Their whole world was flooded out as they knew it" How it was interpreted and written down and later how people choose to believe is not my responsibility.

That's their baggage, not mine.

A truly omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient entity would not have to perform a 'do over' because of a disappointing outcome of a first attempt surely?

Exactly.
Am I responsible for how others think and feel now?

An entity with absolute knowledge and certainty of every action and every outcome to every event, not only on Earth, but in the entire Universe (or Multiverse) would be immune to disappointment or surprise at a given turn of event, as within a nano-second or in quantum terms *before* the creation of said Uni/Multiverse, it/he/she would already be fully aware of whatever event or events would provoke such things and use it's omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient position to correct these 'errors' before anything came into existence.

Again that's how some people who take the bible literally word for word feel. Not how a growing numbers of us who have read and studied science feel. I don't. I feel real world events took place and a primitive people wrote down and to the best of their limited ability interpreted these real world events as the work of God. Again it was their interpretation.

The flood is just one example, of instances where god has recognised a requirement to 'make a change' to a supposed plan for creation.

In my opinion you are arguing points with some people who take the bible 100% literally. I don't and again I shouldn't have to answer for THEIR beliefs. I don't push my beliefs on others and I hate it when others try to push theirs on me.

The Bible is full of instances of 'God's anger', 'God's wrath', 'God's sadness', 'God's coming judgement and punishment' and so on and on....

Again all interpretation of real world scientific events. Coastal flooding ice age melt off or tsunamis, a comet impact etc etc etc.

this would be impossible for such a truly omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient entity for reasons already mentioned. To be disappointed one has to be surprised at a conclusion, an entity that knows everything, everywhere could not be disappointed, and it could never be surprised by unknown events.

"Scientifically" unknown for the period that was again written down and interpreted by a primitive peoples understanding on how Gods physical world works according to his plan and time frame.

Also any summery 'Judgement' by such an entity on a species or an individual would have surely have already been decided upon in advance of the creation of the Uni/Multiverse, by such an entity and makes the whole concept of 'free will' a totally moot point, as we on an individual and species wide level would already have been seen to be good, bad, worthy, unworthy, moral, immoral, saved or condemned long before not only any of us had existed, but before the whole of 'creation' had existed too!

Think about it.

I have.
Again, none of that is my baggage.

Understand that...

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Actually The Greek word translated “whale” is ketos(pronounced kay-tos), and it means “a huge fish (as gaping for prey).”

The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek... not in English. And both “whale” and “great fish” are English translations of the original words.

Good attempt at trying to disprove the story of Jonah though, better luck next time.

edit on 30-8-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

You know, I fully accept that it is a mistranslation...a corruption of the word...no worries.

Yep, that totally made the story of jonas make sense...see, before, I was thinking he was inside of a big tuna or something,
Thats just silly.
But now thinking about it, living inside of a whale...yes, this makes total sense.
I am ready to sign up.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Actually The Greek word translated “whale” is ketos(pronounced kay-tos), and it means “a huge fish (as gaping for prey).”

The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek... not in English. And both “whale” and “great fish” are English translations of the original words.

Good attempt at trying to disprove the story of Jonah though, better luck next time.

edit on 30-8-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

The story is disproven by the simple FACT that people can't survive inside whales (or fish for that matter). No fish except for the whale shark is large enough to swallow a human...and you'd die inside it. And of course there's the fact that they don't swallow humans or stuff even remotely as large...mostly because they can't digest it, and there's therefore no reason to swallow something like that.

In the case of whales, look up how deep they dive. The pressure and lack of breathable air would kill you pretty quickly. Also, you wouldn't get the baleens of a baleen whale...unless you're a midget running into a blue whale. And of course the the whale's gullet isn't wide enough for you once you're inside its mouth. In the case of whales with teeth, you wouldn't get past it's teeth without getting chopped apart.

In short, taking that story literally is RIDICULOUS given we live in the 21st century

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


No evolution being "just a theory" is not the reason i disbelieve in it. The reason is because ive looked at both creation evidence and evolution evidence, and the creation evidence just makes more logical sense to me. Ive looked at both sides and watched countless hours of video but ive not found one thing in the biblical accounts to be false, and on the contrary ive been shown tons of evidence to support it, unlike evolution where they have not one piece of physical evidence for there hypotheses, bacteria simply doesn't cut it im afraid. I apologize if im appearing to be judgemental, but i'm just going off the information you told me about how you used to believe and no longer do. I personally do not believe you can lose your salvation once you've been saved, so this is why i called you a false convert. Hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

No evolution being "just a theory" is not the reason i disbelieve in it. The reason is because ive looked at both creation evidence and evolution evidence, and the creation evidence just makes more logical sense to me. Ive looked at both sides and watched countless hours of video but ive not found one thing in the biblical accounts to be false, and on the contrary ive been shown tons of evidence to support it, unlike evolution where they have not one piece of physical evidence for there hypotheses, bacteria simply doesn't cut it im afraid. I apologize if im appearing to be judgemental, but i'm just going off the information you told me about how you used to believe and no longer do. I personally do not believe you can lose your salvation once you've been saved, so this is why i called you a false convert. Hope that makes sense.

edit on 30-8-2011 by RevelationGeneration because: (no reason given)

Please post some of those sources of "creationist evidence". We've already posted solid evidence that prove the theory of evolution, only fair you do the same

If you can't, all you're doing is preaching...

reply to post by undo


I don't agree with you, but I quiet enjoy your opinions. If anything, you present some interesting food for thought (and I am a lot more tolerant over people trying to suggest the bible and other early books is monkey talk for advanced extraterrestrial affairs going on)

I'm sorry, I was reading through the thread like I do after every poll I take and never say nothing until now, I just cannot help myself.

I am a religious person, period. I don't want to debate why, I don't want to defend or try to convince you of my convictions.

But why on this site do some of you guys refer to people that believe as loonies, or fanatics, or whatever.

Look through my 502 posts, I never push my belief upon others or state fanatical religious lifestyle or attitude.

I don't see some of you getting attacked for as '' loonies '' for what you believe in. I get it, ATS's thing is atheists and a defiant alternative to the media.

I just want to point that not all of us are fanatics. If I am what does that make you? Your # stinks too I don't care how many books you have read on evolution.

reply to post by boncho


Haha!

Well honestly, that poll sums up the leanings and beliefs of everyone that visit's the site. And they polled over 27k people, you can almost apply that across the board. I ironic part is that poll sums up how i would have answered minus a few difference.

But the real kicker is the last question. Love it

reply to post by MrXYZ


Are you really saying the whale shark is the only whale big enough to swallow a human? Did you forget the blue and grey whales which are much larger animals. How do we know what happened inside the whale/fish jonah was swallowed by? Miracles aren't something we can measure by scientific apparatus so their is no way we can say for sure it didn't happen. I trust what the bible says about Jonah as even Jesus himself referenced to the story of Jonah.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


What's logical about a magical being who we have absolutely zero evidence for creating the universe?

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration

I suppose most are not thinking like a person from the 14th Century.

Cute, do you think that kind of talk is going to help sway people into believing the hoax of evolution?

Or is it just going to make you look rather infantile and arrogant?

Perhaps it would be better if you thought before you spoke.

I just can't watch any more... the irony is overwhelming, and it's like a train wreck in slow motion.

You really can't see how what you typed here is intimately related to the rest of what you're typing in this thread, and have not a clue the damage you're doing to the cause you CLAIM to be for, do you?

I'm kicking the dust off my feet and taking a nap before my head explodes and someone has to clean it up.

Good luck with your maker... you're eventually going to need it. A stiffer neck I have never seen.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by undo

 

I don't agree with you, but I quiet enjoy your opinions. If anything, you present some interesting food for thought (and I am a lot more tolerant over people trying to suggest the bible and other early books is monkey talk for advanced extraterrestrial affairs going on)

well that's kinda what i'm saying, but look at this

. 11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'


what else could he be describing? where else are stars caught in a fiery abyss with pillars of fire descending and ascending beyond measure above and below? it's right there! i can't believe i'm the only one (besides the guy who pointed it out to me) that can see what it's saying. the angel is trying to explain to enoch that they got caught in the gravity well of the super massive black hole because the laws of the universe dictate things like gravitational forces (trangressed the commandment in the beginning of their rising, not coming forth at appointed times, clearly enoch trying to recount what the angel told him)

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Are you really saying the whale shark is the only whale big enough to swallow a human? Did you forget the blue and grey whales which are much larger animals. How do we know what happened inside the whale/fish jonah was swallowed by? Miracles aren't something we can measure by scientific apparatus so their is no way we can say for sure it didn't happen. I trust what the bible says about Jonah as even Jesus himself referenced to the story of Jonah.

First of all, the whale shark is a FISH, not a whale. And yes, it's the only fish large enough to maybe being able to swallow a human. But we'd be too large for it's digestive tract, so there's no way one of those would swallow a human.

And I've already explained why humans would die 100% when swallowed by a whale. That's a FACT!

What you're describing is BLIND FAITH, and you're trying to make it sound as if you're stance is based on logic and rationality...when it's really not. It's blind belief, just like some jungle tribes believe in a giant monkey god.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Are you really saying the whale shark is the only whale big enough to swallow a human? Did you forget the blue and grey whales which are much larger animals. How do we know what happened inside the whale/fish jonah was swallowed by? Miracles aren't something we can measure by scientific apparatus so their is no way we can say for sure it didn't happen. I trust what the bible says about Jonah as even Jesus himself referenced to the story of Jonah.

Seriously dude, total dead end.

You really need to either drop religion all together (or deal with these incredibly silly "debates" for the rest of your life) or start thinking outside the box.
Since you are simply hopeing to find anything that puts your worldview back together slightly to include supernatural stuff, I recommend watching how undo resolves the issues.

Hint:
Stop thinking big fish/whale and start thinking jonas was a primitive man and therefore had no concept of submarines and the like...so just went with it being a whale/big fish considering it went underwater

Christ sakes man, must an atheist teach you how to even debate with an atheist?

Thanks OP for the results... very interesting.

If I may, I will tell you that I met Jesus Christ on the road to an Industrial Estate when
I was around 11 years old!
I was with a couple of other boys and we were looking for newts that sometimes appear
after a good downpour in that area.
The pickings were slim and the two older friends decided that better opportunities lay over
a new and recently-creosoted wooden fence.
Sadly, Boy In A Dress wasn't tall enough then and after ripping my palm on the spiked barrier,
my two chums agreed to take my jar and bring me back one the 'fire-bellied' amphibians.

I sat on the side of the gravel path (the clinkers and gravel were from a nearby foundry)...
and nursed my wound. That's when a young man dressed in black with a white dog collar
came by and asked if I was okay.
I showed him my hand, he shrugged and walked away... then he stopped and turned to face
me.
My hackles were up and I glanced at possible routes of escape, when he said:
"Do you know who I am, son.... I'm Jesus Christ... that's who I am" and with that continued
his journey towards the Industrial Estate.
1971.

So here I am, 51 years-old and telling strangers of an account from my childhood.

Was it God's son?

Was it an adult flexing his 'power' muscles over someone weaker than he?

Did God want to startle me so that I would relate the story years later to anybody who might
stumble upon this tale, for some reason?

Was it someone atttempting to put -through 'mysterious ways' -the seed of a wonder into a
young mind, so that -that mind would muse and ponder on whether God was close that day?

Was it just some young Vicar who thought he would impart to an ignorant kid -his role in bringing
God's word to the world and hope that kid would grow up?

Was he a liar?

That boy grew up and now believes that this world's species evolved within the effects of a
changing enviroment and yet, wonders if an intelligence is at work behind it... an intelligence
that can count five Blackjack shoes at Vegas!

You never know... he may have given us the power to debate and find our own way through this
labyrinth -we call life.

Does this help?
Great thread.

reply to post by john_bmth


Whats logical about Aliens we have no physical proof of? This site is littered with 100 page threads that people think a simple picture that you can barely make out is a Alien. 99 % of the photos of UFO/Alien I have seen are laughable. But believeing in that is logical compared to believeing in God?

Thats all the logic I need.

Some of you need to take the hate out your mouth, and actually pick what side your on, I see alot of flip flopping from certain members, I will not ever take stuff they say seriously again.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


Would you care to post the peer-reviewed articles that provide all of this evidence for Creation, while completely destroying all the evidence evolution has accrued over the years? Here's a question for you, what's your opinion of Gregor Mendel, the monk that discovered genetics and provided one of the best pieces of evidence for evolution? Or what about Georges Lemaitre the priest that originally proposed Big Bang Theory? Are you telling me that these men who have devoted their lives to God are not true Christians?

reply to post by JAGx1981


Neither are logical. Believing in alien abductions without evidence is as logical as believing in a creator without evidence. The illogicality of one does not make the other more logical.

reply to post by undo


Few things

1) What is the heavenly host (host of heaven). This is one of those debates actually due to poor understanding of linguistics..some say it means stars, some say it is a army of ufos...

2) Stars don't necessarily mean stars...it translates to shining, and angels also fit the descriptions of shining ones...a ufo would also fit that description btw.


The passage you bring up is muddled in confusion more than anything...you got two things working against itself, first off, linguistic issues not really being clear of what they are describing...and again, cavemen trying to explain something far outside of their common understanding.

If you take it to celestial bodies, then yes, the case of black holes and such could be made, but what if they are discussing not stars, but simply ufo's, or something of the like...suddenly you are back to square one.

Check this out, you may find it interesting:
About the host of heaven

reply to post by nenothtu


Stay with it my friend... I KNOW your patience can endure this!
Debate in a freedom-based society is great! It let's us fume and
growl at the person on the otherside of table... but remember, it's
a table we're all sat at.

For Thou...