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Is hell a good place?

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posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 08:46 AM
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Is hell a good place?

We cannot know how the first iniquity demonstrated itself but we can know that rebellion begins with questioning the status quo.

The moment God was questioned in any way, he responded with an evil punishment.
Evil as I class it in any case. He does not tolerate anyone doing their will, if it does not comply with his will. Obey or else. Not quite what scriptures say he should be doing.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It would seem that God let himself be overcome by evil and responded with evil. Or evil must be good. God created the first division in his once united kingdom.
It appears that God does not follow his own good advise. Or does he? If God was following his WORD, then hell must be a good place somehow.
Strange but true.

Are their any theists who would like to show how this is not back sliding?
That is of course, a rhetorical question as back sliding cannot be denied.

Was God overcome by evil?
Did God follow his literal WORD or not?
Should we?


Is hell a good place or is God’s WORD worthless since he himself ignores it and breaks his own laws?

Regards
DL




posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 08:52 AM
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Hell doesn't exist it's a mistranslation i think it was actually a burning rubbish tip



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Isaac Asimov - "Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night"

Ernest Hemingway - "All thinking men are atheists"

Friedrich Nietzsche - "Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

George Bernard Shaw - "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"

Kurt Vonnegut - "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile"

Edward Gibbon - "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

If these guys are in hell, I'll be happy to go.

I don't want to spend eternity making fawning professions of faith to a master with a flock of sheep.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 
Unfortunately, you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. Just like people try to bind 'god' by the rules of time, physics, and the like, he stands above and outside these systems as he created them, and so is not bound by their limitations.

Additionally, god is on such a different plane and driven but such different motivations that he is to be considered ALIEN more than good or evil, and beyond our comprehension as to why an alien entity might act in such fashion (exactly same reason believers in ETs cannot validly attribute good or evil to their motivations. They are merely alien and so far beyond that that it's not even a valid comparison). It's like a lab rat trying to understand the motives or actions of the scientist.

And in closing, as Paul himself taught, 'hath not the potter power over the clay'? Humans here are a good analogue, in their scientific endeavors. We create hybrids/zygotes/'artificial' life in laboratories, then destroy it once we've done our will. Were it conscious, it would not be able to ascribe a 'good' or 'evil' description to such handling - to, we would just be 'alien'.

But, dear ant, continue to question - although I would assume there is a good possibility you might be one of those who calls the validity or transcribing of the very texts your referring to into question in the first place, thus throwing the whole line of questioning up in the air.

Be well.


EDIT:
I suppose I should provide an answer to the hell question, though, since it's the main topic. "Hell" is not so much a mistranslation as the other poster mentioned, but the concept discussed (the lake of fire, final destruction of those without everlasting life, and eternal punishment of the devil and his angels, etc.) comes from the word Gehenna, a reference derived from the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, which was used as a prototype for the final destruction due to the ongoing trash fires, worms, and the like.

There are a few other words translated hell that refer to other places - Tarsus, the abyss under the earth where the watchers are chained and awaiting their judgement.

As far as if hell is a good place? How's a lake of fire that consumes all things sound to you? Otherwise, if you want to check into either Tarsus or Sheol, I'd say the best bet for an idea would be to look at the UNPLEASANT NDE accounts people have provided after coming back from the other side. Not sure how much stock I put in them, but they seem very convinced as to where they were, likely why, and that it wasn't a happy spot.
edit on 8/29/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

The moment God was questioned in any way, he responded with an evil punishment.
Evil as I class it in any case. He does not tolerate anyone doing their will, if it does not comply with his will. Obey or else. Not quite what scriptures say he should be doing.


First, can we agree that God is "that which there is no greater"? That God, if He exists (which I believe He does), must by definition be pure and perfect? OK, if we can agree on that then you have to measure everything you read or hear against that. If you read something that seems to conflict with the will of a pure and perfect God then you have to accept that either A) you have misinterpreted what you read, or B) what you read is faulty. Too many people try to find "loopholes" to "prove" that God doesn't exist, and they look for those loopholes in a Bible that they don't believe in to begin with. But the Bible isn't needed to believe in a pure and perfect God.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:24 AM
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reply to post by NeverForget
 
While I'll have to agree with some of these sentiments as far as *unquestioning* faith, I'll have to disagree with most of the rest. And I'm sure Newton, a good many of the founders of the US, as well as the other fathers of a good many of our legacy sciences would be most distressed by the lines provided by Hemingway and the others...as they were in good part theists.

Take care.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Praetorius
 



ll have to disagree with most of the rest.


Of course, Each to his own, different strokes for different folks.


And I'm sure Newton, a good many of the founders of the US, as well as the other fathers of a good many of our legacy sciences would be most distressed by the lines provided by Hemingway and the others...as they were in good part theists.


Emphasis on good part "Theists", quite a few, Newton especially, was a deist, if anything.


Depsite having a religious values, and many of the founding fathers being Theists (as well as Deists), still insisted upon separation of Church and State.

I am very jelous of your constitution, myself being ruled under a Monarchy; the objective of which is to "withold the faith".

Peace, I agree with your Hemingway comment; I just admire a good skeptic.

Bertrand Russel once said:-


The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

edit on 29/8/2011 by NeverForget because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Isaac Asimov - "Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night"

Ernest Hemingway - "All thinking men are atheists"

Friedrich Nietzsche - "Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

George Bernard Shaw - "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"

Kurt Vonnegut - "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile"

Edward Gibbon - "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

If these guys are in hell, I'll be happy to go.

I don't want to spend eternity making fawning professions of faith to a master with a flock of sheep.


With you on this.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Greatest I am
 
Unfortunately, you're approaching this from the wrong perspective. Just like people try to bind 'god' by the rules of time, physics, and the like, he stands above and outside these systems as he created them, and so is not bound by their limitations.

Additionally, god is on such a different plane and driven but such different motivations that he is to be considered ALIEN more than good or evil, and beyond our comprehension as to why an alien entity might act in such fashion (exactly same reason believers in ETs cannot validly attribute good or evil to their motivations. They are merely alien and so far beyond that that it's not even a valid comparison). It's like a lab rat trying to understand the motives or actions of the scientist.

And in closing, as Paul himself taught, 'hath not the potter power over the clay'? Humans here are a good analogue, in their scientific endeavors. We create hybrids/zygotes/'artificial' life in laboratories, then destroy it once we've done our will. Were it conscious, it would not be able to ascribe a 'good' or 'evil' description to such handling - to, we would just be 'alien'.

But, dear ant, continue to question - although I would assume there is a good possibility you might be one of those who calls the validity or transcribing of the very texts your referring to into question in the first place, thus throwing the whole line of questioning up in the air.

Be well.


EDIT:
I suppose I should provide an answer to the hell question, though, since it's the main topic. "Hell" is not so much a mistranslation as the other poster mentioned, but the concept discussed (the lake of fire, final destruction of those without everlasting life, and eternal punishment of the devil and his angels, etc.) comes from the word Gehenna, a reference derived from the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, which was used as a prototype for the final destruction due to the ongoing trash fires, worms, and the like.

There are a few other words translated hell that refer to other places - Tarsus, the abyss under the earth where the watchers are chained and awaiting their judgement.

As far as if hell is a good place? How's a lake of fire that consumes all things sound to you? Otherwise, if you want to check into either Tarsus or Sheol, I'd say the best bet for an idea would be to look at the UNPLEASANT NDE accounts people have provided after coming back from the other side. Not sure how much stock I put in them, but they seem very convinced as to where they were, likely why, and that it wasn't a happy spot.
edit on 8/29/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)


If hell is not good then your God does not follow his own biblical advise.

Should he? Should we follow his example or advise?

"Just like people try to bind 'god' by the rules of time, physics, and the like, he stands above and outside these systems as he created them, and so is not bound by their limitations."

You know this for a fact, how?

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 02:45 PM
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I think by removing the word good, and coming to the question: is hell a place? would be a more appropriate question. I think there are so many contradictions to the idea of good vs. evil in the afterlife, that even believers have a hard time believing in a hell. I would say that hell is on earth, in the mind and around you, when you are in a state of deep depression etc. and that is not a good place.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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It's ofcourse meaningless to answer such a question from the inside of the self-contained, closed system of OT-related christianity. The premises of this system have a limited amount of optional 'answers', all of which are self-reinforcements of the 'authorised' doctrinal positions.

Believers will ever Ouroboros-like circle around in these answers, which basically say, that authority always is right and always has the right.

This bubble can only be questioned from 'the outside', asking the semi-officially impopular question of "but does such a situation really present reality" or by introducing reference-points, which even theists are obliged to accept.

With a third possibility of going the 'free will' direction and supporting the view, that 'really' existing authority can be questioned and opposed, such as the recurring conflicts the OT 'god' are involved in indicate. He seems to be a very difficult character to get along with and has met increasing opposition, from the mythological descriptions to present times ideological opposition.

So in any case I would personally side with what, depending on propaganda-perspective either is called either rebellion or freedom-fighting, is the liberal faction.

The german death-camps and the Sovjet Gulags (parallel to 'hell') are so realistic expressions of self-proclaimed authority, that just this is a reason to suspect self-proclaimed authority. Power corrupts....

.......and obviously the outcome of a conflict between self-proclaimed authority and liberal principles can't be that certain, considering the sheer mass of pro-authority propaganda.

Giving mankind the information necessary for choosing (if the mythology is correct after all)...fair enough.

Frenetically pushing it beyond any information-needs...it smells fishy.

According to the sales-arguments from pro-authority side, it's supposed to be a choice. Brainwashing or violating people into it can't have any value, so the 'hell' inclusion isn't really a sound theological argument.



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NeverForget
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Isaac Asimov - "Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night"

Ernest Hemingway - "All thinking men are atheists"

Friedrich Nietzsche - "Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

George Bernard Shaw - "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"

Kurt Vonnegut - "Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile"

Edward Gibbon - "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

If these guys are in hell, I'll be happy to go.

I don't want to spend eternity making fawning professions of faith to a master with a flock of sheep.


With you on this.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

Regards
DL


Dude, you have no clue. Your friends and family that go to heaven don't watch you burn in hell. God makes them forget you ever existed, he wipes away all their tears and makes them forget their sorrows and troubles. Your family won't remember you at all and they definately won't know whats happening to you, only the Lord and the angels will know because God will protect his children from being in pain and sorrow.

You don't go to hell forever. Hell is just a prison God built to house the fallen angels, it was never built for man in the first place. Only humans who do not accept Christ end up in hell to await Judgement Day, where you and all the other's who refused to accept Christ will face the White Throne and be judged. From there you go to the Lake of Fire, escorted by the angels and it is they that will throw you in for the 3rd and final death and the fire will consume you forever.

If you don't want to end up in the lake of fire to burn forever, then it is up to you to get yourself and your household in order, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You can argue all you want, but God will not hear of it, your protests will fall on deaf ears. People that refuse Christ, will be dragged to Hell to await judgement day the very second they close their eyes in death. It doesn't matter if you do not believe in God, you will end up their all the same and after you die it will be too late to accept Christ, this must be done in this life. There are no second chances after you leave this proving ground we call earth.
edit on 29-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by TeroK
I think by removing the word good, and coming to the question: is hell a place? would be a more appropriate question. I think there are so many contradictions to the idea of good vs. evil in the afterlife, that even believers have a hard time believing in a hell. I would say that hell is on earth, in the mind and around you, when you are in a state of deep depression etc. and that is not a good place.


I do not agree with your statement that believers have a hard time believing in hell.
Statistics agreed with me.
We will see how many here are of that ilk.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 08:41 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 



Well said.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
[
Dude, you have no clue. Your friends and family that go to heaven don't watch you burn in hell. God makes them forget you ever existed, he wipes away all their tears and makes them forget their sorrows and troubles. Your family won't remember you at all and they definately won't know whats happening to you, only the Lord and the angels will know because God will protect his children from being in pain and sorrow.

You don't go to hell forever. Hell is just a prison God built to house the fallen angels, it was never built for man in the first place. Only humans who do not accept Christ end up in hell to await Judgement Day, where you and all the other's who refused to accept Christ will face the White Throne and be judged. From there you go to the Lake of Fire, escorted by the angels and it is they that will throw you in for the 3rd and final death and the fire will consume you forever.

If you don't want to end up in the lake of fire to burn forever, then it is up to you to get yourself and your household in order, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You can argue all you want, but God will not hear of it, your protests will fall on deaf ears. People that refuse Christ, will be dragged to Hell to await judgement day the very second they close their eyes in death. It doesn't matter if you do not believe in God, you will end up their all the same and after you die it will be too late to accept Christ, this must be done in this life. There are no second chances after you leave this proving ground we call earth.
edit on 29-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)


Thanks for showing us your fantasy.
It is not backed by anything I have ever read.

So as far as you are concerned, all one needs do to be saved is agree that God was right in setting the condition where his own son is murdered for God's own self aggrandizement.

No thanks. I do not believe in following one who chooses to murder his son.
You go ahead though. It shows your moral position.

Regards
DL



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


You wrote:

["Dude, you have no clue. Your friends and family that go to heaven don't watch you burn in hell."]

Is this to be understood so, that 'clues' and blind faith are one and the same.

For your information, OUTSIDE your self-contained mythology, 'clues' have another meaning (just trying to help your communication-options and -skills), which could have some importance in a debate on hell..



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 01:56 PM
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There is a saying among people who believe hell exists...

"There are no dead atheists".



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


There's probably a saying amongst people who believe in reincarnation;

"Herp de derp".

Peace



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by NeverForget
 


Well, in that case you are entitled to believe in re-incarnation.

Peace.



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Ah shucks... that's very nice of you but I'd rather hold on to what little intellectual integrity I have left.

Have a great day, fellow humanoid.


edit on 30/8/2011 by NeverForget because: (no reason given)




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