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Animals Can Foretell Earthquakes – But Not by Much

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posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 12:05 AM
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The day of the VA quake, my cat drove me crazy! Typically, she is sleeping on or under my bed during the day. That day, she was crying to come in, and go out, back in, back out...over, and over, and over, and.....

I remember saying "what the hell is wrong with you? - go to sleep!" It wasn't long after that the quake hit. Once it happened, she curled up on my bed and went to sleep, like usual.

I would have to agree animals can tell coming earthquakes...mine did by hours.




posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Open2Truth
 


I would bet that they are reacting to electromagnetic waves

What electromagnetic waves? Light? Infrared? Microwaves? X-rays? Radio waves?

The electromagnetic spectrum is pretty well understood. I’m not sure I understand how earthquakes can produce electromagnetic waves. Any ideas?
Not electromagnetic waves. Sound waves.

The first waves from the earthquake that animals can sense are essentially sound waves or "P waves" in earthquake lingo.

The second waves that cause the shaking are totally different, they move perpendicular to the direction of propagation rather than in the direction of propagation, and those are called "S waves" in earthquake lingo.

It's explained here: www.geo.mtu.edu...

Sometimes animals can hear the P waves of an earthquake. Dogs, for instance, commonly begin barking hysterically just before an earthquake 'hits' (or more specifically, before the surface waves arrive).


edit on 30-8-2011 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 

So there’s no future in an animal-triggered earthquake early-warning system, then? A lot of people are going to be awfully disappointed...



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 

I found the dog video posted on the previous page to be pretty interesting, but that's about all the warning you'll get from either an animal, or p-wave sensors. If you react quickly enough and are in a not too huge 1-story building you could make some progress toward the exit in those few seconds, and you may be safer outside than hiding under a desk, if the roof collapses.

The problem I see with the animal based sensor, is that the dog is just as likely to get up like that and start running to the window when it sees a rival dog walking by and it decides to defend its territory, or similar false alarms.

I was surprised to find out that humans have been deploying technology based on this same P-wave early warning that dogs have since 1990, apparently with a major upgrade to Japan's system in 2007:

Earthquake warning system

Japan, Taiwan, Mexico and limited regions of Romania (the Basarab bridge in Bucharest) and the United States[1] are protected by earthquake early-warning systems.[2] The earliest automated earthquake pre-detection systems, named QuakeGuard, were installed in the 1990's by the company now known as Seismic Warning Systems of Scotts Valley, California. QuakeGuard technology currently protects over 40 locations, mostly across California, and has successfully detected multiple earthquakes with no false positive triggers, which is crucial to the effectiveness of such early warning devices. California's Calistoga fire station QuakeGuard installation automatically triggers a city-wide siren to alert the entire area's residents the moment any forewarning p-wave signature of a potentially dangerous quake is detected. Japan's Earthquake Early Warning system was put to practical use in 2006. Its scheme to warn the general public was installed on October 1, 2007.[3][4] It was modeled partly on the Urgent Earthquake Detection and Alarm System (UrEDAS) of Japan Railways, which was designed to enable automatic braking of bullet trains.


So if you're ever riding a bullet train in Japan and you feel the brakes auto-engage at the same time your dog freaks out a few seconds before the earthquake, it's because humans have been able to build sensors to hear what the dogs hear and use it for early warning, and early braking on bullet trains.

And unlike the dog early warning system, the human sensor based system doesn't get up to defend its territory when it sees a rival dog so the human system can actually claim zero false positives so far.


edit on 30-8-2011 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Open2Truth
 


I would bet that they are reacting to electromagnetic waves

What electromagnetic waves? Light? Infrared? Microwaves? X-rays? Radio waves?

The electromagnetic spectrum is pretty well understood. I’m not sure I understand how earthquakes can produce electromagnetic waves. Any ideas?


Not saying that its a proven fact yet, but it is a theory multiple researchers and scientists are looking into, with some interesting results.

Just a couple of quick references for you in regards to theories of electromagnetic precursers to earthquakes:

vortex.ucr.edu...




SAN FRANCISCO –- Scientists revealed data Thursday that an electromagnetic alarm might have preceded a 2007 earthquake in Northern California. The evidence could offer support to a controversial theory that mysterious and little-understood signals might offer fair warning for imminent catastrophic earthquakes.


www.wired.com...



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by Open2Truth
 


Not only is your source rather tenuous about the existence of EM waves related to Earthquakes, but it doesn't say anything about dogs being able to detect such waves which I think would be the bigger problem with your assertion.

However humans could detect EM waves with instruments, and since EM waves travel faster than sound waves, it would be valuable to us to get even more warning than we have now from the sound waves. But according to your source, the subject needs a lot more research, and even then it's questionable if any reliable relationship will be established between earthquakes and EM waves that could be used as an early warning system.

On the other hand, we know that dogs can hear a wider range of frequencies than humans so the assertion that dogs are responding to sound waves is pretty plausible on that basis, supported by the fact we've built early warning systems based on sound waves which are fairly reliable indicators according to the no false alarm claims of the warning system makers.



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


I agree that sound waves is a more solid scientific theory at this point - but I would point out that there are many interesting, and growing, studies pointing to different species' sensitivity to the earth's electromagnetic field. And more than a couple are tying the growing interest in animal's quake-predictive to these sensitivities.

As stated in my original post, it's just my opinion, based on a number of factors, only some of which are beginning to be seriously studied and reflected in the scientific record. But I wasn't just farting in the wind.


"Electromagnetic waves are emitted before an earthquake happens. Animals have the ability to detect these electromagnetic waves," Ota says.

www.mindpowernews.com...
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that it is proven, or even widely believed - at this point it's a theory that some scientists are finding has merit.



posted on Aug, 31 2011 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by Open2Truth
As stated in my original post, it's just my opinion, based on a number of factors, only some of which are beginning to be seriously studied and reflected in the scientific record. But I wasn't just farting in the wind.
Thanks for providing sources...for what they're worth which you've admirably admitted isn't much. So you're not farting in the wind, but you really haven't convinced me you're not just watching others fart in the wind. I'm not totally closed minded on the subject, but I have some problems with the approach used in the research you cite.


"Electromagnetic waves are emitted before an earthquake happens. Animals have the ability to detect these electromagnetic waves," Ota says.
Humans have the ability to build instruments to detect electromagnetic waves, so I'm not sure what the obsession with animals is in this regard. That's part of my problem with the approach. If it's electromagnetic, why not build electromagnetic antennae and amplifiers and use those instead of animals?


Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that it is proven, or even widely believed - at this point it's a theory that some scientists are finding has merit.
At least you acknowledge it may be far from proven, which by the way does not elevate it to the status of a theory as you suggest...some might consider it a hypothesis.

I think it would be fairly easy to determine if the dog in the video posted in this thread reacted to sound waves or electromagnetic waves. We know the video was taken about 39km from the epicenter, so it's pretty easy to calculate how much advance warning EM waves should give over sound waves.


Originally posted by AuirOverrun

edit on 29-8-2011 by AuirOverrun because: (no reason given)


From this source: www.gps.caltech.edu...
I estimated the southern CA velocities and travel times for 39 km as follows:

wave type-Velocity => (yields) time to travel 39km
em waves- 270,000 km/s => 0.000144 s
primary wave- 6.0 km/s => 6.5s
secondary wave- 3.6 km/s => 10.83s

I used about 90% of the speed of light for the EM waves, but even if it's 50% of c, the travel time is fairly negligible over a distance of 39km compared to the speed of the primary and secondary waves.So according to that, if the dog is reacting to sound, the advance warning would be about 4.33 seconds. If the dog is reacting to EM waves, the advance warning would be over 10 seconds if the EM waves are traveling any appreciable fraction of the speed of light..

The elapsed time in the video is roughly 5 seconds from 17:21:38 to 17:21:43 and it does take a mammal a fraction of a second to respond to a stimulus, so the reaction time added to 4.33 seconds puts us close to the 5 second mark. How does the hypothesis of the dog reacting to em waves stand up to this simple test?

I don't think it's as mysterious or uncertain as you're making it out to be. I believe the warning from EM waves would be greater than what the video shows, because EM waves travel MUCH faster than S-waves, not just a little faster like the sound waves do. The dog seems to be reacting to something that travels just a little bit faster than the S-waves. According to my rough assessment, the em reaction hypothesis fails in that specific video.



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