first - public apology to the Masons and the board

Originally posted by theron dunn
DTOM,

that's probably true... masonry has made a significant difference in my life, one that I can see. Folks that criticize masons do so for a couple of reasons:

Skepticism. they think that since their lives are what they are that no one else can make a change

Small spirits... they can't stand it that someone might be making themselves better and want to drag them back into the muck in which they live. These are the same folks that criticize christians for being "holier than thou".

fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of being rejected...

No problem. Understanding these folks makes it easier to deal with them.

For me, I would not trade freemasonry for anything in the world.

Lol, nice generalization. This coming from a Mason and not one who criticizes...

Hey, here's what Jahmun thinks of me:

You are a troll. The only time I see you post is in threads with Masons in the title. And while sometimes this may be a virtue, in your case it is not. When you speak of masonry, you speak for yourself and not your brothers. Your version of the accounts flips and flops with the wind never sticking with the history and vision by your brothers, specifically Masonic Light.

As well, I have perceived you as not to have the capacity to keep multiple ideas in your head at once. Perhaps you have alzeheimers and in such a case, it is not your fault. But you do have faults, and I see your arrogance shining through at every junction. You now decide to reduce your posts to simple exclamations of "you're wrong" and picking out spelling errors. I ask that you start providing points of substance within the context of the article and keeping in mind points made by all members.

I see that it is a "skill" you have mastered to ignore relevant points and only linger on those that you may correct. You have no capacity for showing your faults nor do you have a capacity to be conscious of faults within your arguments.

Consider this constructive criticism in that I ask you to provide more substance and less nit-picking. You could learn a thing or two from your brother Masonic Light.

I think the message speaks for itself. I provide no further comment than what Jahmun's provided for himself.

Originally posted by df1
It seems that what you are saying is that "a man must already be Mason in his heart" before he joins the fraternity. I have read this in many places and believe it to be true.

HAHAHA. What I am saying is men and woman around the globe have this value no matter what. Infact the trait has been displayed in animals also, maybe they must be masons at heart too!!

Maybe Jesus was a mason because he was so forgiving. God must be a mason too. everyone who is forgiving has a mason in their heart!!! What an ignorant stance!

Alex. Well sorry for you being an angry man, however I firmly beleive at being at peace with ones self and being a light to ones self, as a wise man once wrote. You needed a group to join, not everyone does.

Just because some people need masonary to teach them values does not mean others do. To think that would be ignorant!

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
HAHAHA.

Maybe Jesus was a mason because he was so forgiving. God must be a mason too. everyone who is forgiving has a mason in their heart!!! What an ignorant stance!

You missed my point entirely, however I am pleased that I could at least bring some laughter to your day. Since you believe my views are based in ignorance, I see nothing to gain for either of us by attempting to sway you otherwise.

May your chakra be all that you want it to be.
.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Concerning Manly Palmer Hall:

He wrote "Lost Keys of Freemasonry" in 1923, when he was 21 years old. He became a Mason in 1953, 30 years after the book was written.

I think Alex's point was not that Hall gave a bad view of the Fraternity; only that, at the time, he was a non-Mason and had no personal experience in the Fraternity. Hall himself freely admits this in his preface in the 1972 printing, where he states that, when he wrote the book, the only knowledge he had of Freemasonry was that which he received from books in his local public library.

"Lost Keys" is a very interesting and entertaining book, very insightful for a young man of barely 21.

Fiat Lvx.

Thanks for the clarification ML, I appreciate it. I'll definitely be giving it a read.


[edit on 8/23/04 by The Axeman]

Thread Author Dribbler:

Never apologize for something you said in an argument. The only thing you should do is adjust your views towards information and knowledge as it becomes available to you, noone is all knowing and noone is without error.

Who can blame you or how could you appologize for an uneducated belief in something, when the ones you argue against do not educate and relieve you of your ignorance towards a concept?

It is them that need to apologize to you for failing to show and educate you with information they hold and the truth.

I myself am not a mason and will never be one.
My reasons are simple and clear.

First of all, I dislike the banding together of people in groups, especialy when these groups say that joining them will make you a better person. YOU and YOU alone is who and what can make you a better person.
Love, friendship and compasion to fellow man is a quality every human being has, you do not need to bond yourself to a groupment of people to be all you can be or to make a difference.
These things are not traits you can only learn and aquire by joining a groupment or religeon. These are traits you posses from birth and can and should strive for as a person. For no other reasons then self evolvement and peace in your heart.

Second reason would be that binding yourself to a groupment will limit you in honor and trust to bring out whatever information you stumble upon within the organisation.
Nomatter how insignificant, important or disturbing the information you recieve within an organisation is, when your bound to an oath, you can not live in honor or respect for yourself by revealing any or all information you aquire within that organisation.
When there is a rotten apple within that organisation, it is not the right of that organisations to deal with the problem internaly and by themself without revealing it to the outside world. But vowing and oath when joining that organisation will constrict you in bringing out the information you have.

Third reason would be that for me, binding yourself to a groupment can and will limit you to evolve yourself and your actions towards the world by the rules and boundries set forth by the groupment you tied yourself to. The only rules and boundries a human being should live by are the ones he or she imposes on him or herself.
NOONE outside the self should have any right or power to limit you. Not if its for the general good as seen by the organisation, or for more dubious reasons.
If you think its right to do something, thats what counts. If you are wrong in thinking it was right to do something, you accept the punishment or disgrace put toward it.

We are all equal, we all have good within ourselves, we can all achieve the same goals.

There is no need or reason to restrict yourself to a group of people to become all you can be. Since that by itself is a paradox. You cannot become all you can be, when you restrict yourself.

EDIT: Typo's and some spelling.


[edit on 23-8-2004 by thematrix]

Originally posted by thematrix
There is no need or reason to restrict yourself to a group of people to become all you can be. Since that by itself is a paradox. You cannot become all you can be, when you restrict yourself.

Way to go on ignorant judgement.
Freemasonry certainly does not restrict it's members. It hasopened up to me, avenues of thought, ideas and philosophies that I would never have dreamt of looking at. Now, you might say that people gathering under one banner is a sign of weakness, but I don't see all this individual love, peace and enlightenment actually making much of an impact in this world. And as for love being something that the individual can learn for himself? Isn't that a paradox? It takes more than one person to love.

All of this anti-group rhetoric has been shown to be worthless. People naturally group and bond - it's what makes us human. There is an old saying that there is strength in numbers.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by thematrix
There is no need or reason to restrict yourself to a group of people to become all you can be. Since that by itself is a paradox. You cannot become all you can be, when you restrict yourself.

Way to go on ignorant judgement.
Freemasonry certainly does not restrict it's members. It hasopened up to me, avenues of thought, ideas and philosophies that I would never have dreamt of looking at. Now, you might say that people gathering under one banner is a sign of weakness, but I don't see all this individual love, peace and enlightenment actually making much of an impact in this world. And as for love being something that the individual can learn for himself? Isn't that a paradox? It takes more than one person to love.

All of this anti-group rhetoric has been shown to be worthless. People naturally group and bond - it's what makes us human. There is an old saying that there is strength in numbers.

If you need more then 1 person to love. How can you love a piece of art, love a writing, love your dog, your cat, love the world around you, love nature itself. Can't you love and respect the world around you?

And sorry, but because you don't see what an inpact an individual can have on the world, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Didn't Jesus, Mother Theresa, Michalengelo, Van Gogh, Mozart and a whole flury lot of other people around the world and trough history bring something to the world by their individual talent and contributions?

You'll need to do better then that, and if you can't do better then sling an "ignorant" comment at me, then well, don't please, its embarasing for you and your brothers. Not to mention you don't even know me, so please refrain from making that kind of judgements towards a person.

My statements are not exclusive towards masonry, but to the entire concept of groupments and religeon.

You don't need to be part of a groupment to be part of human kind and interact with the world and people around you.

EDIT: spelling and additions.


[edit on 23-8-2004 by thematrix]

Originally posted by thematrix
And sorry, but because you don't see what an inpact an individual can have on the world, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Didn't Jesus, Mother Theresa, Michalengelo, Van Gogh, Mozart and a whole flury lot of other people around the world and trough history bring something to the world by their individual talent and contributions?

You make a good point, but at the same time, wouldn't you say that (except in Jesus' case, I won't go there) it was less a matter of the actual pesons or contributions made by said persons, than the actual effect of their contributions on other people? After all what effect would their art/writings/music had if it had not been for the interpretations of others? None.

How about art or music appreciation clubs? The boys and girls clubs? These are groupings of people. What do you have to say about them?

DF1,

I must have miss read your post then. What do you mean?

I understood it as if you were saying if a man as good in his soul/heart then he must be a mason but he doesn't know it. That is why I posted the ignorant comment. If that isn't what you ment then I am sorry.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
DF1,

I must have miss read your post then. What do you mean?

I understood it as if you were saying if a man as good in his soul/heart then he must be a mason but he doesn't know it. That is why I posted the ignorant comment. If that isn't what you ment then I am sorry.

I think he meant that Freemasonry is not for everyone. If a man is of the caliber to be a good Mason, whether he becomes one or not, he is still "cut of the right cloth" so to speak. Same with those who would not make good Masons. Either you have the moral fiber to begin with or you don't.

I think the point that DF1 was trying to make is that it has less to do with Freemasonry per se than the individual himself. Freemasonry merely encourages the man to make improvements on himself through study and good works, rather than try to impose changes on him throug a certain dogma. I could be misinterpreting, but I think that's the general idea.

Any comments or corrections are as always quite welcome.

As I said "You don't need to be part of a groupment to be part of human kind and interact with the world and people around you."

Are people only and exclusivly able to bring that kind of change or contribution to the world if they belong to a groupment, religion or society?

Aren't there people all over the world and troughout all religions and races that see and cherish their contributions?
In Jesus's case, even Islam recognizes him as a prophet and extrordinary person.

People should join the groupments and religions for the right reasons, not in the illusion that only by joining, they can find enlightenment and be a good person.

Don't get me wrong, If someone wants to join a groupment of any kind, I have no problem with it, let them, but let it be for the right reasons.

I'm not judging or saying that people shouldn't join a groupment, I can only speak for myself. Give my opinion on the subject and state my reasons for most definatly never being one to join them.

uh, groupment? Do you mean group?

If masonry is not for you, fine. For many GOOD men, it is a good thing. We, banded together, have done much good in the world, arguably more than any one person could do alone. There is, after all, strength in numbers. Masonry, through our various charities, donates over $720 MILLION per year, and that is STRENGTH. One man, alone, could not do that, unless he were Bill Gates, and then, arguably, BIll Gates wouldn't be able to unless he were a member of the Microsoft TEAM, which has put him where he is...

No, groups, or groupments, as you call them, are natural to human beings, and in groups, we can make a significant difference. One man can make a difference, as a HEAD of a group. Jesus gathered disciples around him, Mother Theresa had the strength of the Roman Catholic Church behind her, Martin Luther King Jr had the civil rights movement behind him... one man, LEADING a group, can make a significant difference.

One man alone can make a difference, but not as great as that of a group.

In masonry, we strive to be better men, and part of that struggle is service, to each other and to society.

Masonry isn't or everyone, that much is true. To be a mason, you have to be able to see the betterment of the group and society as a goal, and the betterment of yourself by working in that effort. A man is first made a mason in his heart, by being able to see beyond himslef, to desire to be more serviceable to his family, his community, his country and his g-d... a good man is not a selfish man.

As for loving a painting, you speak in the abstract. And of course, there are several different kinds of "Love", from eros to agape.

Apologising publically takes a man to do it trust me i have done before here well done Dribbler, dont get me wrong i aint a mason, but anyone who apologises is cool in my book Dribbler

Originally posted by thematrix
As I said "You don't need to be part of a groupment to be part of human kind and interact with the world and people around you."

I agree.

Are people only and exclusivly able to bring that kind of change or contribution to the world if they belong to a groupment, religion or society?

I would say no, not at all.

Aren't there people all over the world and troughout all religions and races that see and cherish their contributions?
In Jesus's case, even Islam recognizes him as a prophet and extrordinary person.

Absolutely. But without society to percieve their contributions, they would make no more difference than the music I make in my living room, or the words I write in my poetry books. those great people are dependent on others to elevet them to their status, otherwise they would just be another average Joe.

People should join the groupments and religions for the right reasons, not in the illusion that only by joining, they can find enlightenment and be a good person.

I think in Freemasonry's case, it is not alluded to that just by joining you will be a better person, or become mystically enlightened when you are initiated. They merely provide the stimulus (encouragement and fellowship with men who are seeking the same knowledge for themselves) to get the individual doing work to better himself. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Don't get me wrong, If someone wants to join a groupment of any kind, I have no problem with it, let them, but let it be for the right reasons.

With Freemasonry it has to be for the right reasons. Otherwise there are ways that they would know if a man were trying to join for the wrong reasons, and he would not be accepted.

I'm not judging or saying that people shouldn't join a groupment, I can only speak for myself. Give my opinion on the subject and state my reasons for most definatly never being one to join them.

You are well within your rights to do so, and I respect your opinion... I only ask the same courtesy in return. Good stuff.

"Didn't Jesus, Mother Theresa, Michalengelo, Van Gogh, Mozart and a whole flury lot of other people around the world and trough history bring something to the world by their individual talent and contributions?"

Mozart was a Freemason, apparently, as were many others whose "individual talent and contributions" brought "something to the world."

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Maybe Jesus was a mason because he was so forgiving. God must be a mason too. everyone who is forgiving has a mason in their heart!!! What an ignorant stance!

Nobody said or even suggested this. What we said is that in joining the Craft, we improved ourselves. You seem to have a problem with this. You seem to think it's impossible to improve yourself by joining the Craft.

Just because some people need masonary to teach them values does not mean others do. To think that would be ignorant!

Nobody suggested this. There are many who never should be Masons. I personally found Masonry helpful. If you don't I urge you to never even contemplate joining. Just lay off those of us who have joined, and those who may want to join... there's no need to be hostile to us.

Originally posted by thematrix
If you need more then 1 person to love. How can you love a piece of art, love a writing, love your dog, your cat, love the world around you, love nature itself. Can't you love and respect the world around you?


Didn't Jesus, Mother Theresa, Michalengelo, Van Gogh, Mozart and a whole flury lot of other people around the world and trough history bring something to the world by their individual talent and contributions?

You still need more than one person, don't you? You're loving the work of other individuals.
It's kind of ironic that you should mention the work of a Freemason (Mozart) whilst denigrating the Order as a whole.

I must have completely mis-understodd Df1's statment. sorry.

However I will never become a Mason, its not my thing (ATS theories aside). However I will help anyone who needs it. I respect first instead of expecting it first, I live life as a experince to make me a better man and soul. If I am wrong in any aspect I am always first to apologise and when I come to travel to the next world I will do so with a smile that I lived my life as a free soul.

I will never give my energy outwardly to worship, a shard of light lives within.

Originally posted by Leveller
You still need more than one person, don't you? You're loving the work of other individuals.
It's kind of ironic that you should mention the work of a Freemason (Mozart) whilst denigrating the Order as a whole.

Sorry but a work of art, piece of music, a garden, a house, a dog, a cat, a thought, a vision, your very self, need not be of someone else property or origin to be able to love it(offcource, you need to be born from another person to be able to love yourself :p).

Ok, nice to know, that Mozart was a freemason, that doesn't exlude all the people that weren't and still did great things in their lifetimes.

And reread what I said please in regard to your "denigrating" comment.