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Seawolf vs Virginia class Submarine

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posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by C0bzz

Wow, you got me all wrong.

ec1.images-amazon.com...

It's a book.


Thanks and sorry for the misunderstanding.
Star added for good post.


[edit on 8/9/2007 by C0bzz]


Mwahahahahahahahahhahaha

Sorry C0bzz, thought u were haven a go, heh heh, got a laugh out of that.




posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999

Originally posted by Tonka

If she was cruisin around with her towed sonar array out she would hear the tubes being flooded, she would hear the doors open up

Tonka,
Think this through carefully. This is last years technology including the flooding of the tubes. and doors opening up or closing. Quiet methods of firing torpedos were out two generations of boats go. This tech has only gotten better and quieter.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 8-9-2007 by orangetom1999]


Orangetom,

I hereby issue you with a certificate of no responsibility.
This certificate negates your right to say I told you so.
You have been issued with this certificate for the reason that u presume to know more about a given subject yet u offer no facts,arguments or proof of any kind to substantiate it.

I have read many of your posts in this section and most are written in a manner that confirs the fact u know more about this topic than most yet you provide absolutely minimal facts and near on no proof to substantiate that knowledge. Your Spelling,syntax and grammar also leave a lot to be desired. If I am mistaken in my belief, fair enough, prove me wrong with substantiated facts not offhand comments with absolutely no proof to back up your arguments.

There are 2 methods that I am aware of that are commonly used to discharge torpedo's in todays subs, they are stated below.

1.Gas or compressed air discharge as used in the Collins subs I was referring to in my previous post.

2.Discharge by water pressure also commonly known as a "water ram", this method is used on nearly all modern european designs, It is stated that a water ram is nearly completely silent. Im an unsure if this is the system used on Seawolf/Virginia but I would presume so, to this date I have found no information relating to the disharge method of these subs.

Regarding the torpedo doors being opened I am unsure if u are speaking of tactics used or the design itself. Please state more prescisely which part of my comment u disagree with and your argument to substantiate it.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by Tonka]



posted on Sep, 8 2007 @ 10:43 PM
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Also while not really relevant to this thread but definitely relevant to submarine history over the past 50 years I wish to recommend a few books that throw a lot of light on the subject of submarines and there operations. These are a must read for all Sub buffs.

Blind Mans Bluff, The Untold Story Of American Submarine Espionage
Authors:Sherry Sontag, Christopher Drew, Annette Drew

The Silent War, Author: John Pina Craven.
Former Chief scientist of U.S. navy special projects office.

We Come Unseen, The Untold Story Of Britains Cold War Submariners
Author: Jim Ring

I have a lot more if people are interested but these are the pick of the bunch in my eyes, all were very enjoyable and shed a lot of light on submarine design and operations.



posted on Sep, 9 2007 @ 05:59 AM
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Tonka,

You are correct. You find very little to nothing on how the Virginia Class Submarines fire thier torpedos. This is not accidental.

As for sources...I will post this one here.

www.nn.northropgrumman.com...

I was at this location not one hour ago...in a reactor plant.

I am not getting my informations from books or television, newspaper articles, magazines etc etc. et al.

I have however ..read Blind Mans Bluff..very intresting book.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 9-9-2007 by orangetom1999]



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 03:16 AM
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Well goodness me...

I must apologize to the board here. It was not my intention to kill this thread. It would seem that with my last post ...for some reason the conversation just broke right down. Once again my apologies for this effect. It was not my intention.

I want to make a few corrections to some points made on the first page of this thread which are not quite on the mark.


The only difference between blue water operations and shallow water operations is sonar related, once a sub passes over the continental shelf the water becomes very noisy with biologics,


This is not the issue it was at one time due to new types of sonar and signal processing. Think digital here.
See the Bose stereo web site for Bose Noise Canceling headphones ...read and think further than the next sound bite on the boob tube!! No one has ever actually told me or revealed this to me...You just think for yourself. Much of this is out there for you to realize....just in disjointed or unconnected bits and pieces. You have to be able to think outside of the standard blocks/public education or what is in so many of these books and articles. You have to train yourself to connect the dots.


In all honesty the Seawolf has a massive advantage over Virginia and any other boat currently in the water specifically because of her sonar, why u ask??
.

Virginia sonar is Seawolf sonar with upgrades. Just look at the hulls and it will clear up alot. All this stuff about under the icecaps will be negated or minimized with these unmanned vehicles coming on line and some already on line. What do they call them UUVs or such?? Not all is in Janes or Wikipedia here.


under ice zones are notorious for screwing with sonar, they are the one place where the hunted has a very large advantage over the hunter and the yanks knew that sending 688's under the ice looking for them would be virtual suicide they were simply never designed to operate in that environment.


Hmmm...once the 688 class had the fairwater planes removed from the sides of the sail structures and placed in the foreward ballast tanks...retractable bow planes...the sails were modified for under ice operations. This means reinforced heavy type metals in the sails for breaking through ice.
In the olde days the fairwater planes would turn up straight vertical to break throught the ice. Some pictures exist of these olde Sturgeon Class boats up in the North Pole areas operating ...under the ice. There are also photos in existance of 688 class boats operating near the North Pole and sticking through the ice. Nothing new here. Just an adaptation of olde technology.
The point here is that wherever other boats go...we go and follow them and snoop/spy. On our friends as well as our enemys.
I have some news for you folks...sub skippers just like some fighter jocks have some big ones hanging...Rock solid Brass ones. That means the Brit skippers as well as ours. Some other countrys too!!

Any of you ever heard of this Brit course for skippers called the Perisher Course. Talk about grueling and weeding out the men from the boys. This is it!! Not many Brits themselves get invited or selected to take this course much less forigners ...like Yanks. This course is heavily psychological as well as physical. Who can keep thier cool and continue to operate/lead under heavy fire and psychological stress/pressure.

It is my belief that some of this stuff you read in certan articles, books, and magazines are misinformations and disinformations. You figure out what. This field and the technology is rapidly changing.
For example..


If she was cruisin around with her towed sonar array out she would hear the tubes being flooded, she would hear the doors open up,


Not likely here unless someone messed up big time. This is the impression one gets from hollywood movies and books...Sorry folks but they are that quiet today... it's been that way for awhile.

Once again my apologies for dampening out or killing this thread

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 04:39 AM
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IIRC its not just torpedo tubes being flodded that is quiet - the spearfish (as an example) is very very quiet in low power mode when running - only when blasting up to 80 knots does everyone know its there



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999


The only difference between blue water operations and shallow water operations is sonar related, once a sub passes over the continental shelf the water becomes very noisy with biologics,


This is not the issue it was at one time due to new types of sonar and signal processing. Think digital here.
See the Bose stereo web site for Bose Noise Canceling headphones ...read and think further than the next sound bite on the boob tube!! No one has ever actually told me or revealed this to me...You just think for yourself. Much of this is out there for you to realize....just in disjointed or unconnected bits and pieces. You have to be able to think outside of the standard blocks/public education or what is in so many of these books and articles. You have to train yourself to connect the dots.



Your right modern sonars are no where near as inhibited by background noise as they once were but it still equates to driving through heavy rain so to speak, the boat with the best passive sonar is gonna come out ahead all other things being equal.



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 05:14 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999


In all honesty the Seawolf has a massive advantage over Virginia and any other boat currently in the water specifically because of her sonar, why u ask??
.


Virginia sonar is Seawolf sonar with upgrades. Just look at the hulls and it will clear up alot. All this stuff about under the icecaps will be negated or minimized with these unmanned vehicles coming on line and some already on line. What do they call them UUVs or such?? Not all is in Janes or Wikipedia here.



U dont know whether its the same sonar or not, neither do I, sonar capabilitys are one of the most tightly held secrets in the submarine fraternity. You cant tell a hell of a lot from the external hull regarding sonar, yeah there both fitted with side scan thats obvious but the actual passive equipment is hidden from prying eyes in the bow even at launching there covered. My opinion is that Seawolfs sonar capabilitys are better it is an opinion and nothing more, I base it on the fact that Seawolf was built to operate in very adverse sonar regions, I also base it on the fact Virginia was built to be cheaper and therfore in my opinion capability was removed from the boat for the sake of cost, capability isnt free.



[edit on 12-9-2007 by Tonka]



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999


under ice zones are notorious for screwing with sonar, they are the one place where the hunted has a very large advantage over the hunter and the yanks knew that sending 688's under the ice looking for them would be virtual suicide they were simply never designed to operate in that environment.


Hmmm...once the 688 class had the fairwater planes removed from the sides of the sail structures and placed in the foreward ballast tanks...retractable bow planes...the sails were modified for under ice operations. This means reinforced heavy type metals in the sails for breaking through ice.
In the olde days the fairwater planes would turn up straight vertical to break throught the ice. Some pictures exist of these olde Sturgeon Class boats up in the North Pole areas operating ...under the ice. There are also photos in existance of 688 class boats operating near the North Pole and sticking through the ice. Nothing new here. Just an adaptation of olde technology.
The point here is that wherever other boats go...we go and follow them and snoop/spy. On our friends as well as our enemys.
I have some news for you folks...sub skippers just like some fighter jocks have some big ones hanging...Rock solid Brass ones. That means the Brit skippers as well as ours. Some other countrys too!!


I probably should have worded that comment better, what I meant to say is not that the boats were incapable of operating under the ice, boats have been travelling under the ice since the 50's, a better way of wording it would be that the 688's were never designed to hunt under the ice. Read up on the subject of bastioning and sonar related issues in marginal ice zones and you will know what I mean. Seawolf was designed to hunt in these environments.



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999


If she was cruisin around with her towed sonar array out she would hear the tubes being flooded, she would hear the doors open up,


Not likely here unless someone messed up big time. This is the impression one gets from hollywood movies and book



Any activity that results in the expulsion of air under pressure (any amount of pressure) such as "flooding" a tube will generate noise, opening a torpedo door will generate noise, expelling a torpedo will generate noise and the torpedo itself will generate noise this is competely unavoidable. Although not avoidable it can be minimized sometimes to the point of near silence but never complete silence this is fact. My opinion is that depending on the range that these activities are carried out a modern American towed sonar array will pick these sounds up to a degree, once again this is purely an opinion based on observations of text relating to modern towed arrays. The simple fact is there is not one person here that can give us an exact correct answer, opinions, calculated guesses and educated guesses are all there is, aint life a bitch.



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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Ahhh..now that is better. Good to see this thread pick back up again.

some good comments on here again.

While I will not go into comments or details on how this is done...I have been behind the torpedo doors on both Virginias and 688 class boats in what is called the free flood areas....the mechanical side. I have also worked the Hydraulic systems for both. I speak also of both inside and around the tubes.... inside the pressure hulls. Flood and drain systems both.
I should probably have worded this better myself...You would have to be practically up on the backsides of these boats to hear anything. Including flooding the tubes. From a distance one would be hard pressed to hear anything.
The pattern of which Harlequin speaks of the Spearfish class boats also holds true for the Yank boats. Above a certain speed threshold noise is more easily generated. The technological challange has always been to move this threshold up the scales. This work continues today.

Since there is an article on the web which can be found under the name Cutthroat LSV or Large Scale Vehicle.I will go ahead and post this. Cutthroat is a native species of trout out in the western states. I got to see this hull shape out back of one of the sheds at night before it was shipped out west to the lakes. I was at first astonished and immediately swung my bicycle around for a closer look. Inside the tanks and free flood area she was built very similar to an actual submarine. It was then that I realized this was a test bed ,a scale model, for future designs and modifications. Albet ..a very expensive test bed but this is the extent to which one goes to accomplish the desired goals if one can in fact afford such.

Link here. www.chinfo.navy.mil...

Tonka,
You are again correct..in that sonar and its modern capabilities are one of the most closely guarded secrets. And so it is in this case. I wont go into details again on how I know but suffice it to say they have not scrimped on the sonar on the Virginias. This is one of the reasons for the costs soaring on these boats in addition to the inflation of our money supply here...more accurately refered to as depreciation.

The huge cost areas on a nuclear type boat are the nuclear plant itself...and the electronics which go into these modern boats. Not so much the hull materials...though they are not inexpensive themselves. The nuclear plant itself is the single biggest cost item on such a boat...or even a surface ship.

There are some significant changes coming in the Virginia class boats, but this is true of any class. The last of the boats in a series are often different in key areas than are the first ones built as these changes are incorporated in the yards before delivery. Virginia was designed to be more accessable to changes than were the 688 class. Computer aided designs have made possible quantum leaps in such construction or modifications. For Virginias this change will be radical as compared to the 688 class boats.
The one factor I can predict which will not change is the cost spiral. This will continue unabated.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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spearfish is a pump jet torpedo used by teh Royal Navy - and when it enetered service there was nothing else like it in the world in service



modern attack boats arn`t called `holes in teh water` for nothing - IIRC something like 15 knots (maybe 20) they are near invisible



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by Kim78
Hi guys!
My first post here...so be nice to me =)

Submarines are a great interest of mine and therefore I have this question for you.

Which is the better sub...Seawolf or Virginia? And what do you think the max deapth and max speed are?

The way I see it, Seawolf was very expensive and after Soviet went belly up there was no need for such a peach of weapon.
The Virginia Class was built as a more Littoral combat sub, and as a more budget version. But the Virgina as at least 10 years newer...so what do you think?

I'm guessing the speed is around 42-45 knots...but I have no idea of deapth.

[edit on 21-8-2004 by Kim78]


As a former submariner familiar with both i can neither confirm nor deny any of your guesses ha ha.. but i will say that Virginia class has the more up to date tecno.. thats not always what matters. its tactics and education. you can put a awesome crew in a garbage scow let them clean it up and because of the crew it can kick some.. in the cold war the soviets played with some advanced boats, it was the usa education on tactics and the environment that put us on top. put seawolf vs Virgina with comparable crews. no sound augmentation for training. at let them go at it? ill give Virginia 3 out of 5 victories with a survivor. although most likely they would take each other out.. one of my best friends turned down a spot on the Connecticut, and one of my captains was a former xo off that same boat. and leaned a lot from him. its the crew that determins a boats fate not the tech. one of the most dangerous subs in the world isn't even nuclear.. the german type 209 thats right a diesel.. technology isn't everything..

[edit on 12-9-2007 by DIRTMASTER]


[edit on 12-9-2007 by DIRTMASTER]



posted on Sep, 12 2007 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
spearfish is a pump jet torpedo used by teh Royal Navy - and when it enetered service there was nothing else like it in the world in service


What a bonehead....thanks for clearing this up Harlequin. I thought Spearfish was a class of boat. It is the same with certain of our class of torpedos. Seems that the pump jet is taking over.
Thanks for the clarification.

Dirtmaster is right on here. IN the bullseye. Crew Training counts for alot...a whole lot.

As a yardbird, Ive been in the yards doing certain work on my stomach and been caught in the middle of a drill..a flooding casualty. They will walk and run right over you to get to the casualty and this was only a drill. Dont try this on your own unless you like getting run over. The focus is intense when they are training. As a crew member you dont want to get a reputation that you cannot be counted on to make the grade or in hard difficult times and or not make your qualification. Such word gets out quickly in a small cloistered arena. Out at sea it must be doubly so. When they can these guys will tell you some very intresting and also some frightening sea storys..some of which can bring you up short.

Dont misunderstand me here..the technology is great..but unless you have matching crew training to compliment you are just treading water. Way outclassed by a better trained crew.

The technology will continue to advance and adapt to changing demands and or mission requirements.

Another thing though not quite the same as going out to sea on one of these boats. As a yardbird...you also dont want to not make the grade. There are certain peoples of certain reputations/skills/ knowleges you want with you on difficult dangerous jobs..and people you definitely dont want. When your backside is on the line...you will draw such a line in who does and does not work with you. No light weights need apply. Thats just the way it is.
I dont blame the Navy one bit for drawing such a line for thier standards.
IT needs to be done..hard and fast. No lightweights need apply!! YOu make the grade or get the hell down the road.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 12-9-2007 by orangetom1999]



posted on Sep, 25 2007 @ 04:00 AM
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Tonka,

Was looking for some new material to read when I have some slack time around here. I remembered this thread and decided to go ahead and order those two books you mentioned.

The Silent War and We Come unseen.

I look forward to reading them and thanks for these titles.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Oct, 10 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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I ordered the two books late last month.


We Come Unseen by Jim Ring

The Silent War By John Pina Craven

Just today I managaed to finish We Come Unseen. This turned out to be a intresting book after what I consider to be a very slow start. There was more detail in this book than what I am accustomed in books on this topic. Some of the material would be considered classified here in the USA and not allowed to be covered or discussed. Lots of detail once the introductory chapters are completed. Actually more detail than is covered in Tom Clancys books. Intresting account of what happened in the Falklands Island Conflict with the sinking of the General Belgrano.
Also lots on the buisness of intelligence gathering. Very intresting here too on intelligence gathering.
A very shocking and stunning account of the dangers of and an accident working with the special boat squadrons is told here clearly illustrating the dangers and weighty responsibilitys of command.
Also...very intresting accounts of the Perisher Course. These accounts alone made the book worthwhile.

While preparing for work today I checked the post and the other book came The Silent War. I will have something to read tonight during the slack periods.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jul, 2 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by Kim78
 


The German world is very small when it comes to defense. A small budget, a narrow scope in mission, a VERY restrictive political environment when it comes to issues regarding environmentalism or use of military force outside German or NATO boundaries..... The mere idea of suggesting a nuclear sub is nearly absurd, given Germany's or many other EU nations’ political landscape. You can also see this with tanks where they use inferior materials for penetrators in armor piercing rounds because the political ramifications of using depleted Uranium is unfathomable. Many European Navies are no war fighting Navy's, they barely even see themselves as such and in some cases one can argue they are more like a Coast Guard than a Navy. The political environment is very different, their budgets are small, and in some cases they lack the industrial base to really support a nuclear powered sub, their scope in missions are more limited......

The US Navy needs subs that are part of that carrier group. These subs stay out for loooooong times and travel vast distances....... US Ohio class subs basically go out and disappear for months at a time, with literally only a hand full of people knowing where they are at, sitting and waiting to shoot a nuclear payload at a target. The German Cold War scenario was to seal of the Baltic Sea and that's pretty much it. Small subs with a small span in mission that don't stay out on sea very long, carry no nukes, and don't "really" worry about delivering special troops into places with names like Libya, Iran, Iraq........

The USN operates in a completely different universe than near all these European nations. Most comparisons typically single out one variable on which they focus to make some overall judgment, but it's largely nonsense. The USN operates with a budget that is larger than the entire defense budget of ANY European nation (Army, Air Force, and Navy combined) and where it counts, they have the lead, if for no other reason because they can afford the nice new toys. A modern subs performance isn’t measured in simple underwater speed or dive depth or any other ignorant comparison like this. Like a modern fighter which is no faster or higher flying than it’s predecessor, the real advantage is in stealth, the sensors carried on board, the armament……….



posted on Jul, 9 2008 @ 08:22 AM
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"An LA class submarine can shut down almost everything not absolutely needed. Same with the older class Sturgeon 637 class boats."

I'm pretty sure they still had to run the pumps that circulated water through the reactor coils. This is generally why a nuke boat is not as quit as a diesel even if they are both stopped.

I know the Ohio's could run silently on low power with the pumps off. The natural heat currents pushing the water through the reactor.

I haven't heard of the LA's had this option though.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course if you only build 3 Seawolfs, they will be very expensive. Whenever you hear that the price per unit escalated (subs, jets, etc.) the number one reason is that the initial quote is based on a higher quantity. When Congress typically cuts back the quantity, the price per unit goes up.

2nd-I'm sure the Virginia class benefitted imensely from technolopies paid for by the Seawolf program.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIP subs lack the power projection of nuclear subs. If the president suddenly needs several subs stationed to where they can launch tomahawks or something, you pretty much need nuke boats.

Subs often escort our carriers. It would make sense for them to have the speed and endurance to keep up with them--something an AIP could not do.

When there is a maritime crisis and the President asks, "Where is the nearest carrier?" The next question is probably, "Which sub is already there?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



posted on Jul, 11 2008 @ 05:24 AM
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My money is on the Seawolf. The technologies in both boats are rather similar - though upgrades to the 688s put most of them on some rather equal footing.

The Seawolf is larger - which generally translates to being more quiet. It also had more torpedo tubes - which can be pretty invaluable when reserving a few for a snapshot (firing on a bearing - usually done to make the enemy tuck&run while you dodge whatever they fired at you).

Though war games are often rather skewed - you're dead if you screw up and are found - you don't get to use countermeasures. In my reserve unit, we have a sonar technician and an electronics technician who both served on submarines in active duty before shifting to reserves. Their war games usually involved the CO getting annoyed and calling back "Can someone drop a wrench or something down there so that they can find us and we get on with this?"

Though some training exercises using 'dummy' weapons are rather interesting. The torpedoes that are used are designed to curve off after they get within a certain range of the target.... though that doesn't always happen like it should.... causing some minor damage to the hull of the boat.

Though, really, the difference in submarine warfare is the crew and the training. There has been a lot of concern over the restrictions on submarine training exercises off the west coast (where we have a very extravagant training center for submarine crews - namely the real environments used to train in). The concern is the proliferation of diesel submarines (which can run very quiet) to many countries that are potentially hostile to the U.S. Primary concern has been with regards to our carriers.

A few Kilo-class submarines would easily be able to sneak up on a carrier, and even fire two or three salvos from their tubes before any escorts could do much more than get a few torpedoes off, themselves. Having 20+ torpedoes screaming towards a multi-trillion dollar carrier and its 2 squadrons and irreplaceable man-power and experience.... obviously not a good thing. Carriers are armed to the teeth to defend against anti-ship missiles.... but torpedoes have somehow been forgotten..... ironic considering it was a major design consideration back in WWII - particularly for battleships and dreadnoughts.

Obviously early detection of threats to a carrier and its task force is vital to the U.S. The loss of one carrier would be a rather drastic blow to our naval forces - but an insanely large blow to our morale. However, Congress and local governments seem to think Carriers run on dreams and prayers, and computer simulations are all it requires to train someone these days (so much cheaper than the real stuff, too - the perfect solution!). So they restrict operational budgets and training budgets for our military while placing restrictions on training exercises that threaten the quality and capability of our personnel.

But it will probably take the loss of a few carriers to some backwater country with a few Kilos they bought for a few million USD before they start going on a headhunt, wanting to know why the Navy isn't doing their job and why they seem to think they need more money when they obviously can't do their job.

I hate politicians..... being brain-dead must be a requirement to run in party-based elections. There are a few that get through the screen (ironically in the Presidential race), but it seems like the party says "Whoa... hey.... you sound like you know what you are talking about and have half a brain... I'm sorry - you're so overqualified for this job that you should just go somewhere else."



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by longbow
 


If you wanted to protect only the waters around the U.S., then fine. But we are a superpower and deploy far and wide. The Virginias are far better suited for force projection.




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