Norse mythology part 1 - The creation of the world and universe

reply to post by Mimir

The only one that I've encountered that even runs a close second is the Enûma Eliš. Bunch of gods, living in a giant chaos dragons body, partying so much that the dragon's hubby gets really angry and wants to kill them. And then it really gets crazy.

reply to post by Raud


Hopefully it dosen't stray to much off trail.
We shoulden't make fun of other beliefs, just because we disagree, but on the other hand all religions seams like a bedtime story. That said I dont see how we're far into the woods, to show a personal oppinion and if you feel offended I'm sorry, but you shoulden't be that touchy. Both post with "bashing" actually also talk about the "genesis", which is the topic of the thread.

There's giant fossils many places, many been called hoaxes, but others is harder to explain.

(Last note. Christians always say the bible can interpretated, but when someone does so and the believers disagree it's almost instantly addresed as heretic flamming or blaspheme. Many muslims is even worse, when we talk about defending religions. That said I'll repeat myself.)

Hopefully the thread can stay on course and focus on the norse beginning.

reply to post by Mimir


Haa, okay LOL, I'll just take that from a random member that does not know me very well just yet
I am not, at all, or in any way offended by any religious remarks in this thread. Fact is, I've been holding back my own lashes but other members say what I have in mind anyway so I don't have to bother!
I base my way of life and ground principles out of the Old Norse ways and I have been doing so since my early teens and it has worked out just fine for me. I have also had the great luck to find me a loyal woman who shares those beliefs.

Those things aside; this thread will only discuss the origins of the mythological/hypothetical Old Norse world?
I shall then bide my time well and come up with any philosophical thoughts on it.
As for now, I can only think of the fact that it starts off with a clear dualism already from the beginning. This puts it apart from other, later, religions who starts off with a divine singularity. Also the scientific world says that prior to big bang there was some sort of lifeless singularity that is "unnecessary" to discuss or even imagine (I think Stephen Hawking was in on that view, at least I think I heard it from him).
In my opinion, a singularity can not be, at least not in terms of original divinity. There has to be at least a divine dualism of sorts. Maybe prior to "everything" there was some sort of total void, like that in the depths of the Ginnungagap, or "the gaping mouth of Ginnunga" but I might be in on Mr. Hawkings (if that was the case) idea that such a void is not really a hot topic, nor can it be.
In the Old Norse belief, the origin was simply the clash of two elements: fire and water. I guess you can also see it as a Yin-Yan kind of relation.
I think it is a pretty clever and sensible way to see it; the cold, black ice versus the hot, blazing fire: the two most apparent opposites the world provides. I doubt however that such a thought would have struck a person who has never been prone to seasonal cold (and for the same reason, biblical stories doesn't stick well to a stubborn Norse mind since we know nothing of desert wanderings and palm leaves etc., just a thought).
In the clash between fire and ice in the earliest stages of genesis, we see also clearly the very same origins of life here on our very own planet earth; once a smouldering sphere of molten rock when introduced to the element of water harboured life and in life's earliest stage came divinity; the "life spark" or the essence of the soul- a fragment of a universal divinity that all living is a part of and that dwells in all that lives.
(That last part is very much my own thoughts).

reply to post by iterationzero


Enûma Eliš?
Is that some Baltic similarity to the Old Norse? Sounds crazy enough though

reply to post by iterationzero


LoL.
I would like to hear those stories, starts out well.

reply to post by Raud


A duality is very intriguing. M-theory and the law of the one got a explanation to big bang that could be real. A collision between two universes or parallel universes creating a new brane-universe which begins in a singularity. To stay on track I could add that these two parallel universes could have been of fire and ice. Even if the norse had known the implications of M-theory, it would be easyer to talk about giants and flying goats.

M-Theory is not realy a theory yet, just a bunch of mathematical ideas put together and not proven in reality so it could be a hoax.These two videos should give insight to both concepts and seams alot more credible than most other explanation's. With these theories you can follow time back thrue the singularity before our universe.

reply to post by Raud

Babylonian, actually. Gives their creation myth and then establishes Marduk as the BAMF of the Babylonian pantheon.

Awesome thread! S&F!

For those interested in modern-day Odinism ("Asatru") check out www.odinic-rite.org...

I have been with this group for a few years now. Pretty solid people who don't go dressing up as vikings all the time

This girl really does a lot of effort to interprete the beginning of Norse mythology into a modern understanding. She talk about the primordial soup, the big bang and more, ill quote a few of her interpretations. The two first lines of stanza 3 in Völuspá, Poetic Edda: "AR VAR ALDA; THAR ER YMIR BYGD" ill write the direct translation in yellow.

In the beginning there was a big wave. (Big as in tsunami. Wave is a important part of early cosmos)
There was only the big wave no little waves - waves are movement or vibration.

The place where Ymir is building. (Ymir also means a Big sound in old Norse "big bang")
Later Ymir was cut into pieces to build the universe, splitting the "big bang" into the " orchestra of the universe".

I just had to post this:

An enormous Rainbow, the kind you would see in a children's book. I would describe it as a road, or a bridge. It was not an arc like you would usually picture one to be. At first it was far away, surrounded by blackness. As I slowly approched, it got larger. I felt incredibly attracted to it, almost like I knew I needed to get to it. I felt in all of my being "The answer lies over the rainbow". I was distinctly urged by another entity that I could not see, hear, or name...only feel...to "Go over". I felt resistance, but I wanted to go so bad. I kept pushing, mentally, to get closer to it.

From this thread

Is it Bifrost, the rainbow bridge to Asgaard or is it not!

reply to post by Raud


The gods fear Ragnarok because they too will die.

reply to post by Raud


I didn't now that there was originally no new world after Ragnarok.Thanks for that and thanks for posting Bathory.

Originally posted by Mimir
reply to post by merka

 

Yea Asatro I probably misspelled a lot

They were good storytellers no doubt about that. Maybe these incredible stories is created under the influence of drugs. I often seen speculations that say they used mushroom's before battle, maybe they did during storytelling too.

Your probably right about the pigeonmen would get ripped and possible preserved in one of Thor's halls or worse if they got to close. (And he's one of the good guy's)


reply to post by iterationzero

 

Signed.
Giant magical Cow's licking ice and Giants spawning from the sweat of other giants later challenging the gods, is a lot more interesting than the story about the invisible skywizard. I don’t see any of them as very credible, but at least they give you a chance to see how fanatic people are. I’m also pretty sure the norse version would catch the boys interest in school, they don’t want to hear about sissy angel praying for peace in the world.

(please don’t get offended, I don’t mean that literally).

edit on 28-8-2011 by Mimir because: (no reason given)

Angel's didn't have wings.
1 regular Angel= 200,000 Assyrian warriors in terms of raw destructive power. Last I checked the viking gods needed humans as allies for Ragnarok to face the army of undead(Army of Saints?).

My Guess is "Thor" wouldn't even last a round with an Angel, let alone an Arch-Angel.

reply to post by korathin


I should first of all apologize for calling them pigeonmen, but when people speak of angels in general they always refer to the angels in the Christian point of view, that's a biased view.

"Angels" had another meaning in the pagan traditions, but

Let's start with the misconception that Angels are strictly Christian or non-pagan. They're not. Mythology of Angels existed long before Judaism and Christianity.

Angels also are major figures in Buddhism and Hinduism. Celtic and Norse mythology. And in many Shamanistic legends. But not all of these call these entities "angels", just like not everyone refers to a prayer as a mantra, or a spell of protection a prayer, and so on. We all have our "labels" for what fundamentally are the same things.

The Buddhist for instance refer to angels as devas, or celestial beings. Some paths of Buddhism use the label dharmapalas or dharma protectors. In Tibetan Buddhism, devas are sometimes considered to be emanations of bodhisattvas or enlightened beings. Other paths of Buddhism have specific important devas, as they are often derived from pre-Buddhist cultures and religions and not from Buddhist philosophy itself. So these paths encorporated pre-Buddhist local or regional mythology into their Buddhist paths long ago.

In Norse mythology the equivalent angels are the Valkyries who were originally sinister spirits of slaughter, dark angels of death who soared over the battlefields like birds of prey, carrying out a warriors fate in the name of Odin. They chose the heroes of the battle and took them away to Valhalla, the heavenly home of honor for Odin's ghostly army. In later Norse mythology, the Valkyries were romanticized as Odin's Shield-Maidens, virgins with golden hair and snowy arms who served the chosen heroes everlasting mead and meat in the great hall of Valhalla. They also soared over the battlefield as lovely swan-maidens or splendid mounted Amazons. This was portrayed in the Volsung Saga and Niebelungenlied, where the heroine Brynhild was a beautiful fallen Valkyrie.

"Angels" actually worked under the command of the allfather Odin who like most of the Aesir is a God of war....God's using magical trinkets like Odin's spear Gungnir that would wipe out any "angel" if he should engage. Thor would also be able to make some damage with his hammerthrows and lightningfields (I doubt angels like being engulfed in a field of lightning). There's other lesser known Aesir wargods. They were "masters" of the "angels" and not at war with "angels". There's no reportings of battles between gods and "angels" as far as I know of. Who would win is all speculation, but I would put my money on the god's.

Source

Originally posted by korathin
Angel's didn't have wings.
1 regular Angel= 200,000 Assyrian warriors in terms of raw destructive power. Last I checked the viking gods needed humans as allies for Ragnarok to face the army of undead(Army of Saints?).

My Guess is "Thor" wouldn't even last a round with an Angel, let alone an Arch-Angel.

edit on 25-1-2012 by korathin because: (no reason given)

Oh no, are you referring to Thor as the comic book character, in later times also seen in a movie?
If so, please don't. That's highly disturbing.
If not, please disregard this post.

Originally posted by korathin
Angel's didn't have wings.
1 regular Angel= 200,000 Assyrian warriors in terms of raw destructive power. Last I checked the viking gods needed humans as allies for Ragnarok to face the army of undead(Army of Saints?).

My Guess is "Thor" wouldn't even last a round with an Angel, let alone an Arch-Angel.

Your Angel power math is amazing. I am just curious how you reached that very precise conclusion.

BUT your math is flawed. You assume 200,000 Assyrians of equal quality. The Vikings however often had hero characters, which would obviously be used for the Valhallan army. How many Assyrian warriors does a Viking hero equal? Like say, Beowulf. Other Viking stories tell of "regular" men that can do feats like throwing a spear 100m and skewer 4 men at once, or stuff like that. Skilled Viking warriors is a fact.

If we assume that Thor would bring an equal amount of men as those Assyrians, where maybe 1/3rd is "strong" Vikings (lets say they equal 5 men) and 1/20th is a "hero" character (lets say they equal 20 men) and the rest is just your average Viking warrior, that would mean that the 200,000 Vikings would actually equal some 650,000 Assyrians - Or more than enough to take on 3 Angels! Even if I am being generous with the numbers, this isnt even taking into account Thor himself and his power multiplier, Mjölnir.

Now the only question is... How many Angels does an Arch-Angel equal?

reply to post by Mimir


•Asgard (Aesir, the land of the gods),
•some say Alfheim is in the middle level
•Vanaheim (Vanir),


Middle Level
•Midgard (men),
•Jotunheim (giants),
•Svartalfaheim (dark-elves),
•there is no Nithavellir dwares and dark elves are the same


Lower Level
•some say Muspelheim is at the top level
•Niflheim (is the primal world of ice not the dead)
hel is the world of the dead

Originally posted by truthontheloose
reply to post by Mimir

 

•Asgard (Aesir, the land of the gods),
•some say Alfheim is in the middle level
•Vanaheim (Vanir),


Middle Level
•Midgard (men),
•Jotunheim (giants),
•Svartalfaheim (dark-elves),
•there is no Nithavellir dwares and dark elves are the same


Lower Level
•some say Muspelheim is at the top level
•Niflheim (is the primal world of ice not the dead)
hel is the world of the dead

this is a matter of what sources you use, the eddas aren't really all that clear on some of the place names.
the name of the land hel rules is called nifhel in later versions and niflhelm in earlier ones. scribes seem to have conflated the names after a while.

snorri used the name nidavellir as a synonym for the dwelling place of the dwarves or the dark elves.
norse mythology is convoluted lol.

reply to post by demongoat


I partly agree with you–
Snorri & Co. did translate the sagas/mythology in their own context as being christian monks. Thus, some of their intepretations where made to fit into a christian world view. For example, in the original Rangarök story there is no "new world" arising from the ashes with the golden barley fileds gently swaying in wind and whatnot. Instead, there is the apocalypse and thats that; there's nothing more. Maybe Snorri and his fellow monks found that all too horrible and re-wrote the end so that it would be more understandable for a christian audience, who knows.
Also, there was a skewed focus and selections of what sagas and myths to be written down, what and what not to mention, what aspects to take into consideration and what discourse to use. This is typical for all the written history of mankind.

On another note, Helheim is the land of Godess Hel; the domain of the dead. Nifelheim is a completely different place; it is the domain of eternal ice and is ruled by the dragon-demon Nidhögg.
You got it a lil' mixed up there I believe

reply to post by Raud


actually there is a world after raganoak comes the thing the cristians changed was they said that in the new world there would only be one god there god but in reality many of the gods will survive and become the gods of the new world

reply to post by Viking9019


the gods are more afraid of the horrible death that awaits us at the end of fimbul winter

reply to post by truthontheloose


Apparently we've heard different Rangarök legends, you and I.
The thing with the post-apocalyptical divine singularity I've presonally never heard of, despite a life-long dedication to norse mythology. What I have heard, however, is that Rangarök is the end of everything. A few Gods and their offspring do escape the fiery end but is forever drifting without a goal in the black emptiness of space.

I have a harder time figuring out whether Rangarök is supposed to have happened already or if it is about to happen. Depending on what legend you turn to, you get different versions. I have a guess that it all happens unrelated to time and space, in some parallell dimension of sorts. But that's just me speculating