Should Holocaust revision (NOT denial) be taken more seriously?

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posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by m1991

Nah, I respect your opinion of course. I want to question some of your points though.

First of all, do any of these records exist, Nazi records of exterminating Jews? If so, how many, and are they translated correctly? Also, remember the part of the Nuremberg trials devoted to the Holocaust was rather short. Plus, I imagine no matter what they admitted, they would have likely been executed anyway.

Second, the reason Germany is apologetic and Japan isn't is because modern Germany is not the same state as the Germany of Weimar and the Third Reich. Being apologetic was part of the war reparations Germany paid as a conquered nation.

I agree with you that genocide is genocide and really 1 million is in principle as horrific as 6 million or 1 billion. However, if only 1 million or 3 million Jewish people died in the camps, it makes the suffering of Jews look less especially horrible relative to the suffering of Poles, Gypsies, and the like. I think the concept of Jewish people as victims is like I said, propaganda to justify Allied acts in WW2, and is also a way of justifying the current Middle East wars.

I should have figured I wouldn't get off so easily without citing sources and links.


This first one is an online repository for the full text transcripts of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal as well as actions that occurred in trying Nazis outside of the Nuremberg framework.

War Crimes Tribunal Transcripts

and while I was in these again, I found this for another poster who claimed the Jews had plenty of Medical care. Yeah...I guess you could say that. I suppose the care was medical in nature...

Some Medical Experiments in the Camps

You also asked about the specific documents. Harvard appears to be the holder for those collections and fortunately, a full searchable database. The source documents I searched from transcripts above and pulled up to read directly were found and displayed with no issues.

Some references in the transcripts discuss sections of documents deliberately left out of the trial. I'll say this....there were reasons, and the Harvard collection has the source material without sensitivities considered. I was eating the first time I delved into this, and that was a mistake. What is left out is specific, graphic and impossible to forget in some cases. That is saying a lot when the trial transcripts themselves turned my stomach in many parts I read. Nothing about watching these things on the History Channel compares to the words of the men themselves describing it or ordering it with detailed instructions.

Harvard Document Collection RE: War Crime Tribunals

I eventually just had one site open on each monitor for quick reference back and forth. It made research much easier. As far as a shortage of testimony about the specifics, I personally found just the opposite. I could have spent days in those collections and still never read all of them. I came away with the distinct impression the goal was to document in trial transcript what the cameras did in the camps themselves. They certainly weren't shy about drawing out details.

I suppose you have good points about how the exploitation of the events during the war reach right into the present day. I pretty much left that alone because the politics of this cover countless threads all by itself.




posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 11:17 PM
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Should it be taken more "seriously"?

Well not sure if it should be taken more seriously but if someone wants to dispute or question aspects of the Holocaust, they should not be stripped of their civil liberties or imprisoned as is currently done in Europe. Ernst Zündel being an example.

Is there a Holocaust 'Industry'?

Take for example the 1948 report by the International Red Cross:


In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis-occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews [italics added]. In all its 1,600 pages the Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber [italics added]. It admits that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend [italics added].

behindthehoaxes.com...

edit on 27-8-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 11:18 PM
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The Holocaust was real, but some of the Jewish influence, tries to make it about them, guess what alot of polish people were killed, but they don't go around pushing it in everyones face, trying to make it about them. Alot of people died and they should all be treated equal



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:48 AM
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if you think it is racist or 'illegal' or someone should go to jail for asking questions, congratulations, you are following the proper 'programmed response' the [self percieved] elitists want you to think.

i mentioned this to someone recently, and they said i was nuts. then i pointed out how the media is all lies now, what makes it different then? he conceeded that he thinks the jews died from poor conditions at the camp, but he, like any objective person after seeing the facts, realized the rest was a scam.

there were no precious six million dead. they all moved to the usa, trust me, im living in the xionist controlled crap now. turn on ANY tv show. 55% of the 'talented' actors or performers are chozen. and yet, they make up 2% of the population?



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 01:03 AM
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Not too long ago I finished reading the biography of Hitler by John Toland. I enjoyed this book very much because it went far beyond other books I have read in humanizing Hitler. In some respects Hitler was a great guy. People liked him. He took good care of his relatives, with a couple of notable exceptions and stayed in contact with his musician friend Kubizek well after he became Chancellor.

Some people thought he was a crank during his youth and army service. Others admired him or thought he was an OK guy, "one of the guys" as a matter of fact.

He liked children. He liked dogs. He charmed the ladies. He won the loyalty of men. He was the champion of a a certain segment of the German people.

And he led Germany into an unprecedented catastrophe.

His story is fascinating and Toland does an outstanding job of telling it. I am aware of scholarly criticisms made of the Toland book. He is alleged to have taken some liberties in recreating certain situations, where he purports to relate the thoughts going on in the heads of some of the historical figures.

The great strength of the book is the result of two circumstances that were not operative, at least not to the same degree, with Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Allan Bullock's Hitler a Study in Tyranny or Kondrad Heiden's Die Fuhrer, all of which I have read. Those two circumstances were many more research interviews with people who knew Hitler in official, social, and familiar circumstances and the emergence of many more documents than could be used in writing the earlier books.

In Toland's book, he has a report being given to Hitler by Himmler, I believe, summing up the progress of the program of the "final solution" to the Jewish problem, toward the end of the war, when it was obvious that Germany was not going to be able to achieve the objectives which Hitler had set for the country.

The figure, said by Toland to have been given to Hitler personally was six million. Obviously, these figures could have been fudged, particularly toward the end of the war.

I am at work at the moment so I can't actually consult the book to give precise chapter and verse.

This is the sort of thing that even the Nazis, who were generally good record keepers, could get wrong by some percentage, but in my opinion, based on their acknowledged skills in just about any technical area you might name, the percentage of error might be at most, the very most, in fog of war and bureaucracy, 10%.

Of course Jews were liquidated in different ways in different places. There was a lot of bureaucratic liquidation involving strokes of the pen on documents, rather than the death of the body of the person being liquidated. One of the Gauleiters, whose name escapes me was well known for bureaucratic liquidations and for classic Germanic reasons. It was quick, cheap and efficient. It allowed him to maintain competitive numbers with other Gauleiters while avoiding the costly and troublesome business of actually killing people. He wasn't able to carry this on for too long.

I believe one thing is certain, though. It was Hitler's intention to exterminate all of the Jews in Europe, with the exception of people who for one reason or other could be exempted either because they had connections or because they were too important.

How successful they actually were in this is a subject for serious, scholarly people. My two cents worth.



edit on 28-8-2011 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:09 AM
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reply to post by m1991
 


The Zionists sacrificed the Jews on purpose and for a reason - so that you can't criticise them without the fear of being branded anti-semitic.

Thats why many Western Governments and Corporations have already been infiltrated by Zionists who claim to be "Jews" but do not represent the Jewish people at all...
edit on 28-8-2011 by CasiusIgnoranze because: .



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:35 AM
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Actually when the Holocaust was taught at my school, the teacher spend quite a lot of time talking about the non Jewish victims. We covered the political activists, the gypsys, the mentally ill people, the communists, and all of the others who were sent to the death camps.

Don't know if that's still the case. But in my part of the UK at least, it was never taught as an exclusively Jewish event.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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Definitely i dont deny it happened, but the number 6 million is exaggerated, i wouldnt even say it was over 600k, and even then, it would have been only the gypsys and disabled, barely any jews died in the holocaust, it's just Zionist propaganda Hitler himself was jewish.
And both sides of the war was funding by Zionists.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Obviously the impact on the Jewish people is emphasised because, and I know this might shock you OP.....

BUT THE JEWISH PEOPLE WERE THE MAIN TARGETS! OF COURSE the impact on homosexuals, intelectually disabled, and Roma people doesn't get the same degree of attention - because they were not the main targets of this particular genocide and as a result there isn't anywhere near as much information about how they were affected by it - because they simply weren't affected anywhere near as much as Jews were.

The Third Reich was built on anti-semitic propaganda and oppression of Jews so to suggest that it's somehow biased reporting to focus on the impact the holocaust had on Jews when teaching the history of it is intellectually dishonest.
edit on 28/8/11 by Yazman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by m1991
 


back in middle school we had to take a holocaust/WW2 class and i did my paper on the fact that NOT 6billion jews were killed 6 billion people were killed in the holocaust. there were jews and the nazis did target them mainly however everyone here knows that is was gay,mentaly ill, people apposed to the the 3rd rich, P.O.W.S etc etc etc. I also went into the pasific side of the holocaust and what the japs did to the chinies. i got an A+++ for my effort and different angle on my paper. and to this day i really think they need to teach about the holocaust better. give the big picture but that wontr happen. ever.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by Upthepunx
 


I do hope your teacher was fired soon after, on basis of being a complete ignoramus.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by RadeonGFXRHumanGTXisAlien
Definitely i dont deny it happened, but the number 6 million is exaggerated, i wouldnt even say it was over 600k, and even then, it would have been only the gypsys and disabled, barely any jews died in the holocaust, it's just Zionist propaganda Hitler himself was jewish.
And both sides of the war was funding by Zionists.

Perhaps you can explain then why the German High Command would have lied to such an extreme and how the documents coming in from all corners of German occupation to base the numbers on were apparently falsified to make 600k into 6 million?

Recall now, the reports that all would have to be faked were internal and generated by and FOR the German command structure. They fully intended to WIN the war at that point. It's also well worth noting that deceiving the Reich wasn't 'perjury', it was a Capital Offense in Hitler's Germany. That is quite a penalty indeed, for fudging up the numbers long before they could know the importance their own reports would have later.

A lot of real world things would have had to be faked, falsified or outright made up out of thin air by Russia, Germany, Britain and the United States (Since even the conquered failed to argue the facts in any meaningful way right to the present day...as I noted in another message on this thread.)

I'm looking forward to seeing your reasoning and thought process on this if you get back here again.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


I'll just point out one thing that negates the whole Nuremberg evidence.

Based on Rudolf Hoess testimony ,and of which was used to calculate how many jews perished in Auschwitz....How do you explain why the Plaque outside Auschwitz was changed in 1989 for another citing the number who perished there was reduced from 4 million to just 1.5 million.

Right there is proof that evidence at Nuremberg trials is totally unreliable, and further the figure of 6 million jews who were claimed to have perished that had held as true up till 1989 must be reduced by a minimum of 2.5 million.

------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway my main criticism is how a movement that had its leader listed as Times "Man of the year" twice, and which united and pulled a Country flattened by war and hyper-inflation into the strongest Country in the world is labelled as bad ?........Bad for who, the Internationals who could no longer exploit for personal gain !

Maybe that is why laws are in place to stop people getting to the truth...."Never again" shall the elite by deprived of their share of a country's wealth.





(no reason given)
edit on 28-8-2011 by ken10 because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-8-2011 by ken10 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by RadeonGFXRHumanGTXisAlien
Definitely i dont deny it happened, but the number 6 million is exaggerated, i wouldnt even say it was over 600k, and even then, it would have been only the gypsys and disabled, barely any jews died in the holocaust, it's just Zionist propaganda Hitler himself was jewish.
And both sides of the war was funding by Zionists.

Perhaps you can explain then why the German High Command would have lied to such an extreme and how the documents coming in from all corners of German occupation to base the numbers on were apparently falsified to make 600k into 6 million?

Recall now, the reports that all would have to be faked were internal and generated by and FOR the German command structure. They fully intended to WIN the war at that point. It's also well worth noting that deceiving the Reich wasn't 'perjury', it was a Capital Offense in Hitler's Germany. That is quite a penalty indeed, for fudging up the numbers long before they could know the importance their own reports would have later.

A lot of real world things would have had to be faked, falsified or outright made up out of thin air by Russia, Germany, Britain and the United States (Since even the conquered failed to argue the facts in any meaningful way right to the present day...as I noted in another message on this thread.)

I'm looking forward to seeing your reasoning and thought process on this if you get back here again.


You dont question the facts?
6 million jews dead is a hyperbole.
The US government has fabricated much harder things let alone, the number of jews dead in WW2.
You side step the fact i state when i said both sides were funded by zionists and hilter himself was jewish.
What about bush's stake in WW2, you do know he was banking in on it?

No, but its about the poor jews though, well whatever works for you, playing the victim and fabricating the truth is second nature to some.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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The things you say are extremely naive. It sounds to me like you are speaking from the perspective of a highschool student.

The figures, if anything, are low. 6 million is the low figure... it is almost certainly 8 million, and as high as 12 million. There is really no telling the true figures though.

If you were to take a collage course on the war, you would learn about all the other victims. Gays, blacks, gypsies, slavs, the mentally retarded... who were also euthanized and killed in the millions.

It has nothing to do with "the narrative of the powers that be". It has everything to do with the narrative of the person that was Hitler. His upbringing and experiences bred the most psychotic racially charged anti-semite that has probably ever existed.

The holocaust is one of the most thoroughly investigated events in history. Thousands of historians have dedicated their lives to holocause research, and they continue to make discoveries to this day.

One thing is certain though. The holocaust happened, and it was at least as extreme as we are taught in schools. Theres no reason for thousands of real, honest historians to lie through their teeth for the sake of some assumed end game of "tptb". no need to revise anything, because nothing has been invented. Its ignorant to assume Americans or Jews have managed to somehow invented a part of history that still burns in the memories of so many people.

These sorts of threads really tick me off. I have learned a lot about the holocaust, the reasons why it happened, exactly how it happened, and why its something we should never diminish or forget. I know people around here are skeptical, mostly because they dont trust jews (and see the holocaust as somehow creating sympathy for them), but there is absolutely no evidence for any sort of holocaust coverup or invention.

It happened, to more people then jews, and millions were killed. It was absolutely disgusting, and makes me sick just to think about it. But, it makes me more sad to see people weaving it into their own little conspiracy narrative and calling it phoney.

absolutely unacceptable.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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I think it's all a bunch of Zionist war propaganda(that continues for agendas forever).
It's so many untruths we have been programmed to believe without question, regarding the 3rd Reich.
I don't believe it. That "h" and the other anti-3rd Reich propaganda.
The Zionists controlled the US media and politics, to make the 3rd Reich into pure evil, so we have no qualms destroying them, as well as laying the foundation for Israel, which the Zionists killed many anti-Reich Jews in prisons by having the allies bomb the supply routes, to make it worse and then even more elaborate on it, so they secure their grip of world power. But, it does seem to me, that this "h" hoax is crumbling, and people are starting to question and doubt more, and the Zionist state controlled oppression of questioners only enforces there is an agenda and something they must keep hidden at all costs.
edit on 28-8-2011 by tom502 because: misspell



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:25 PM
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I do not have access, nor do I have the skills needed, to tabulate some numbers from the cencus records which may be available. This has very possibly been done but I have not seen it .

How many questions could be answered by comparing the number of Jews living in the areas taken by the Nazies in WWII. Compare this to the number of the same populations who moved away before and/or survived the war. It might also be interesting to include some accounting of those who have migrated to other areas afterward, just to keep a prospective of the population.

Was the number "six million" also cited during the WW I. If so, it might be interesting to find out how the population rebounded so fast.

I have been told that the number of those who are seeking repartions from Germany has risen over the past several years. You would think the numbers of those who survived the death camps should go down as time passed. As they normally would age and die.
edit on 28-8-2011 by hdutton because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:40 PM
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Hindsight is 20/20

History is always best comprehended from present to past with every event having a reason leading up to it

Germany was never trying to win the fight against Great Britain and the US on the western front
Otherwise they would have never invaded Russia before invading England thereby making a 2 front war highly unlikely and victory truly possible.

Dunkirk in May 1940 Which in itself calls into question the Nazis’ goal of conquering the world since the German held back for three days, thereby enabling British and French troops to escape.

This along with many other blunders made during the war for whatever reason given to explain for them. That incompetence exists on such a level that one should question the purpose and motive behind them.

Western European people experienced the realities of the wars and its intrusion into their daily lives far differently then then the people of Eastern Europe. but additionally the holocaust, which is the only real difference between Axis and Allies forces for the most part, was starkly different from east to west with 90,000 or 26% of Jewish population being exterminated in France, Belgium 40,000 (60%) killed and in the Netherlands 105,000 (75%) where exterminated, where as the Jewish population in Eastern European countries the Baltic countries totaled 228,000 killed (90%), Romania 300,000 killed (50%) Ukrainian 900,000 killed (60%), Poland suffered an estimated 3 million deaths (90%) of the Jewish population wiped-out (that’s half the of all Jewish holocaust deaths). Germany & Austria also had 90% of their Jewish population exterminated together totaling 210,000, Hungary had over double that 450,000 killed (70%) the total Jewish population

This disregard for human life was practiced by both sides in the east with widespread scorched earth tactics and large scale terror against civilians. With German and German-allied forces treating civilian populations with exceptional brutality, massacring villages and routinely killing civilian hostages. And Russian force being nearly as brutal 30 million people died on the eastern front compared to 3-5 million in the west
The world’s top 100 companies before WW2 did 30% of all business after the war the top 100 did 70% The real goals behind WW2 where to ensure that Capitalism and Western Europe culture dominated the world. Not through force but by offering the choice of the lesser of two Evils

Alchemy is an ancient tradition; it is often thought of as magic which is true only in that it is “the art of deceit” the objective of which was the creation of the mythical philosopher’s stone was, which must be paid in blood, but which allows for actions taken because of it to seem justified. The holocaust was a philosopher's stone that after the war laid the moral grounds and justification for the creation of Israel as the Jewish homeland.

Which is why this is the greatest Mind f*ck in history



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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There's no reason to not believe that holocaust figures were exaggerated for political gain or whatever reason. Look at Libya - we've come to the point where history is revised as it is being made.

edit on 28-8-2011 by AwakeinNM because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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I don't think the numbers are necessarily accurate (though I am sure the real number is very high) and I definitely think the whole thing was engineered by someone other than Hitler. I can't remember where I read this, but some say he was as dumb as a load of bricks (seriously, like almost mentally retarded) and couldn't have possibly written that book, etc. Also he was known to love children and animals-- and wanted to be an artist. What gives??? He was probably just some idiot they picked up off the street and brainwashed.
The only thing I can say for sure is that I believe the people who were secretly running Nazi Germany are secretly running America now.
edit on 8/28/2011 by Universer because: America





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