could the "virgin" mary have become pregnant in a public bathing pool?

Originally posted by Pinke
If Mary get pregnant in a pool ...

Did Lazarus just have a bit of a bad flu, the blind person spontaneously recovered, people didn't notice the water wasn't wine, and the fish multipication was just applied mathematics that were ahead of their time?

The other possibility is water bound sperm provides super powers and we just haven't discovered this yet?

I think if a person starts explaining part of the story this way, then logically the whole thing has to follow. Not trying to be smart OP, just how I see it.

These are all completely separate stories in the bible and have nothing to do with Mary being impregnated. Even those that are religious should learn to separate the stories in the bible and look at them as such. Some can be scientifically corroborated and others are just plain insane. Learn to filter all content of obvious bulls***.

We don't know, it could be, you want to hear that? we will never know, its the past, we can't go back, it's done, it will not change anything.

Originally posted by nusnus

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

I was being serious...

Also, everyone knows there is an emptiness inside women's vaginas. That means water in a tub or pool cannot go all the way inside by itself. The pressure would prevent it from so.

If there is an emptiness then the water pressure could pushed its way in, similar to the way water fills a cup as it is submerged.

Umm its not a vacuum emptiness

Its an emptiness that has air in it. If water just went all the way inside when women went inside tubs/pools, the discharge would cause some serious pollution in pools.Its like water in your ears. It doesn't go all the way inside.

edit on 26-8-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

My drinking glasses are not filled with a vacuum either, water is quite fluid you might find, it can sneak into small places one would not think.

My large colon does not have an "emptiness" the intestines close themselves off when empty, otherwise its filled with s*** like this thread full of trolls.

Originally posted by Silend
We don't know, it could be, you want to hear that? we will never know, its the past, we can't go back, it's done, it will not change anything.

Why would I want a change, I'm simply offering a scientific possibility I've never had presented to me before, I'm sorry if your emotions and beliefs drive you people so much you can't even allow for a legitimate discussion to take place. You people need to go back to your facebook accounts, oh that's right, your such trolls you probably don't have anyone to talk to there. Anyway, go play in a sand box and let the grownups have a conversation.

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Originally posted by nusnus

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Originally posted by nusnus
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

I was being serious...

Also, everyone knows there is an emptiness inside women's vaginas. That means water in a tub or pool cannot go all the way inside by itself. The pressure would prevent it from so.

If there is an emptiness then the water pressure could pushed its way in, similar to the way water fills a cup as it is submerged.

Umm its not a vacuum emptiness

Its an emptiness that has air in it. If water just went all the way inside when women went inside tubs/pools, the discharge would cause some serious pollution in pools.Its like water in your ears. It doesn't go all the way inside.

edit on 26-8-2011 by nusnus because: (no reason given)

My drinking glasses are not filled with a vacuum either, water is quite fluid you might find, it can sneak into small places one would not think.

My large colon does not have an "emptiness" the intestines close themselves off when empty, otherwise its filled with s*** like this thread full of trolls.

As are the reproductive organs of a woman, they are not voids, the vaginal walls themselves are spongelike in places. Prior to menstruation, and during pregnancy they expand to accommodate, but they are not empty spaces, but very elastic, muscle and tissue. There are measures also to protect things from going up there too, as defense against disease. Water, especially, small amounts, would most likely be forced out by the thicker mucous secreted by the walls of the vagina even if the hymen wasn't intact.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Elastic is the key word there, and like I said, water is fluid and its particles are small enough to fit between the walls of the uterus and filopian tube. Sperm are also microscopic and can fit between these walls. I'm simply explaining the possibility, the only way the tube and uteran walls would close perfectly is if there was a vacuum created directly outside of the vagina which would pull all air present, out. We do not live in a vacuum, therefore there can be extremely small (even microscopic) "tunnels" between the labia that extend to within the uterus.

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Ok, so [color=gold] I had this thought when I was in high-school, it was more than 4 years ago.

Prepair for satire and humor, MEDIEVAL style!

If that quote above is true then it is pretty funny.
Cause a little known medieval satire from between AD 700 - 1,000
called "The Alphabet of Ben Sirach" says almost exactly the same thing.

The setting is Jerusalem, and a learned/lettered old testament style prophet/rabbi
has decided to join the other Jews (no derogatory inflection intended) in a heated Roman Bath.

... before I proceed just let me say that the complete work is almost impossible to find,
and the few fragments to be found on the Net are convieniently missing some of the most
inflamatory/hilarous bits. ... continuing....

Where he finds all the young men masturbating, and chastizes them for such immoral behavior.
Emboldened in the face of their elder they challenge him and philosophical debate ensues
where after admitting he himself has never done it, they then say... well how can you condemn it?

So he tries it. Changes his mind, and leaves with them. Immediately afterwards the women come in to bathe,
and his own daughter enters the water and becomes miraculously impregnated.

Later when the child is born it has hair, teeth, and immediately begins arguing with the mother.

"My son," said his mother to Ben Sira, "don't speak for the evil eye may fix its power on you."
"The evil eye has no authority over me. Besides, do not try to talk me out of doing what my father did. To me applies the proverb, 'The ewe takes after the ewe, and the son follows the deeds of his father.'"
"Why do you interrupt me my son?" his mother asked.
"Because you know that I'm hungry, and you give me nothing to eat."
"Here, take my breasts. Eat and drink."
"I have no desire for your breasts. Go sift flour in a vessel, knead it into fine bread, and get fatty meat and aged wine - and you can eat with me."

the-alphabet-of-ben-sira/

During the period this satirical work is attributed too,
one can well understand how admitting to writting it,
hell even being found in possession of a copy of it
may have resulted in a traditional burning at the stake.

The work is considered anonymous,
though probably written by a well educated Rabbi.
It has many facinating insights to the ancient world view,
a lively pacing, some amazing laugh out loud moments.
But even as recently as 20 years ago it was considered
far to controversial to be the subject of any serious scholarship.

Salonica, 1514, two known surviving copies
Constantinople, 1519, one known complete copy in the British Library, and a defective one at the Bodleian
Venice, 1544, reprinted by Steinschneider, 1854; most later editions are based on this one.

wiki / the alphabet of ben siri

It may seem like a bold new radical though to you,
but once again we are reminded that their truely is nothing new under the sun.
So... congratulations.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Elastic is the key word there.

Not really. Not in the sense that you mean. The elasticity is responsive. Water would have to be pumped in unless the girl was willing and actively participating...which penetration or not, is still sex in my book.

Edit to take into account your edit...even germs have difficulty getting in there if not attached to a phallus or other object being inserted in there along with them. Otherwise, we and all other mammals wouldn't have made it this far.

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm
Wonderful, trolls, just what I wanted!!!!!!

Thanks for "adding to the discussion"

/sarcasm

edit on 26-8-2011 by DarkSarcasm because: (no reason given)

k, then , why are you doing this?

why are you examining this point? you believe the bible stories except for this. Everything in the bible was true except Mary wasn't a virgin. you thinkso? or you then have to examine everything else and find a simple explanation. Like how Jesus turned water into wine at his own wedding? Maybe the wine had some sort of water seal on top that came out before the wine appeared? you could go on for every. What about the old testament. now thats a story. would you take your kid up a mounatin and muderer him to pove your allegiance to an all powerful god? what if God and jesus were actually Satan and we are already in hell or just uder Satan's 10,000years of power......

you either accept what is written in the bible or you don't very simple.

Originally posted by JohnySeagull

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm
Wonderful, trolls, just what I wanted!!!!!!

Thanks for "adding to the discussion"

/sarcasm

edit on 26-8-2011 by DarkSarcasm because: (no reason given)

k, then , why are you doing this?

why are you examining this point? you believe the bible stories except for this. Everything in the bible was true except Mary wasn't a virgin. you thinkso? or you then have to examine everything else and find a simple explanation. Like how Jesus turned water into wine at his own wedding? Maybe the wine had some sort of water seal on top that came out before the wine appeared? you could go on for every. What about the old testament. now thats a story. would you take your kid up a mounatin and muderer him to pove your allegiance to an all powerful god? what if God and jesus were actually Satan and we are already in hell or just uder Satan's 10,000years of power......

you either accept what is written in the bible or you don't very simple.

edit on 26-8-2011 by JohnySeagull because: (no reason given)

Like I said, separate the stories, they were written individually therefore hey should be interpreted separately. I made no claims to believe any of the stories in the bible, nor am I saying that they must universally be discarded if one finds even a single misrepresentation within.

Also, I don't dismiss having discussions about other stories, however, imagine how difficult it would be to discuss the entire bible within one thread, there would be no organization. It's best to separate the stories and discuss them one at a time. How can you say that the bible is that black and white. One does not have to be religious to be moral, but by your train of thought your either perfect or criminal, a republican or a democrat, angelic or evil. There is a thing called the middle ground.

reply to post by DarkSarcasm


Apart from mammals, all other lifeforms can self-replicate, there are exceptions, but as a rule, without sex. It is a uniquely mammalian feature. Not necessarily better though. A clone birth or Virgin birth is a survival mechanism that narrows diversity, allowing the traits of the lone parent to be reproduced without contamination. Biology is primarily feminine though. One mother cell divides to form two daughter cells and so on and so forth. Exact replications. At some point, in observing nature, there must have been some realisation of this, and a greater understanding of our own reproduction functioning must have been a natural by-product of our domesticating animals. Since they would have observed that chickens and other fowl, as well as reptiles, can self-reproduce, and that they were generally classed as female, it would be a natural assumption to assume that females, at one time, from some external source, reproduced something that brought 'maleness' and the option of sexual reproduction. Obviously maleness evolved before mammals did, but our ancestors, when trying to explain the world around them, can be forgiven for coming up with the notion of an external god impregnating a virgin earth-bound female, without realising that the maleness was probably a much more primitive element when it first made it's appearance.

naw, not getting into this.

good luck with the answer.

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Ok, so [color=gold] I had this thought when I was in high-school, it was more than 4 years ago.

Prepair for satire and humor, MEDIEVAL style!

If that quote above is true then it is pretty funny.
Cause a little known medieval satire from between AD 700 - 1,000
called "The Alphabet of Ben Sirach" says the almost exactly the same thing.

The setting is Jerusalem, and a learned/lettered old testament style prophet/rabbi
has decided to join the other Jews (no derogatory inflection intended) in a heated Roman Bath.

... before I proceed just let me say that the complete work is almost impossible to find,
and the few fragments to be found on the Net are convieniently missing some of the most
inflamatory/hilarous bits. ... continuing....

Where he finds all the young men masturbating, and chastizes them for such immoral behavior.
Emboldened in the face of their elder they challenge him and philosophical debate ensues
where after admitting he himself has never done it, they then say... well how can you condemn it?

So he tries it. Changes his mind, and leaves with them. Immediately afterwards the women come in to bathe,
and his own daughter enters the water and becomes miraculously impregnated.

Later when the child is born it has hair, teeth, and immediately begins arguing with the mother.

"My son," said his mother to Ben Sira, "don't speak for the evil eye may fix its power on you."
"The evil eye has no authority over me. Besides, do not try to talk me out of doing what my father did. To me applies the proverb, 'The ewe takes after the ewe, and the son follows the deeds of his father.'"
"Why do you interrupt me my son?" his mother asked.
"Because you know that I'm hungry, and you give me nothing to eat."
"Here, take my breasts. Eat and drink."
"I have no desire for your breasts. Go sift flour in a vessel, knead it into fine bread, and get fatty meat and aged wine - and you can eat with me."

the-alphabet-of-ben-sira/

During the period this satirical work is attributed too,
one can well understand how admitting to writting it,
hell even being found in possession of a copy of it
may have resulted in a traditional burning at the stake.

The work is considered anonymous,
though probably written by a well educated Rabbi.
It has many facinating insights to the ancient world view,
a lively pacing, some amazing laugh out loud moments.
But even as recently as 20 years ago it was considered
far to controversial to be the subject of any serious scholarship.

Salonica, 1514, two known surviving copies
Constantinople, 1519, one known complete copy in the British Library, and a defective one at the Bodleian
Venice, 1544, reprinted by Steinschneider, 1854; most later editions are based on this one.

wiki / the alphabet of ben siri

It may seem like a bold new radical though to you,
but once again we are reminded that their truely is nothing new under the sun.
So... congradulations.

David Grouchy

edit on 26-8-2011 by davidgrouchy because: spelling

I never claimed to be the first, humans have been thinking for thousands of years, anything I can think of without full education within a certain subject has almost definitely been thought of and possibly discussed before. This is not to say that one can still not come up with ideas without the knowledge of it previous existence. Everyone does not know everything. Thank you for posting the story, I probably won't read it though.

reply to post by DarkSarcasm


its not about something being black or white?

its about having faith. if you question some of the stories, you don't have faith. when you have faith or reach a point of belief, nothing matters anymore, you just accpet it all.you cannot have a bit of faith. it is because it is. when you still have questions you are lacking in faith, but dont worry, jesus will forgive you, he is waiting for you.

Originally posted by JohnySeagull
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

its not about something being black or white?

its about having faith. if you question some of the stories, you don't have faith. when you have faith or reach a point of belief, nothing matters anymore, you just accpet it all.you cannot have a bit of faith. it is because it is. when you still have questions you are lacking in faith, but dont worry, jesus will forgive you, he is waiting for you.

That sounds terribly black and white to me.

Blind, unquestioning faith doesn't sound even remotely Jesus-y to me. I doubt he'd approve.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

Apart from mammals, all other lifeforms can self-replicate, there are exceptions, but as a rule, without sex. It is a uniquely mammalian feature. Not necessarily better though. A clone birth or Virgin birth is a survival mechanism that narrows diversity, allowing the traits of the lone parent to be reproduced without contamination. Biology is primarily feminine though. One mother cell divides to form two daughter cells and so on and so forth. Exact replications. At some point, in observing nature, there must have been some realisation of this, and a greater understanding of our own reproduction functioning must have been a natural by-product of our domesticating animals. Since they would have observed that chickens and other fowl, as well as reptiles, can self-reproduce, and that they were generally classed as female, it would be a natural assumption to assume that females, at one time, from some external source, reproduced something that brought 'maleness' and the option of sexual reproduction. Obviously maleness evolved before mammals did, but our ancestors, when trying to explain the world around them, can be forgiven for coming up with the notion of an external god impregnating a virgin earth-bound female, without realising that the maleness was probably a much more primitive element when it first made it's appearance.

There are plenty of species on this player that can not self replicate, amphibians, reptiles, fish, many plants cannot self replicate though hermafrodity is common in plants. Many insects cannot self replicate, spiders cannot self replicate.

You must realize that self replication is the primitive form of reproduction as genetic mutations occur more slowly and genetic diversity is decreased thereby decreasing the survival capabilities in an environment that changes regularly or drastically. If genetic sharing did not exist and self replication was environmentally and Evolutionarily beneficial then we would not exist. There would just be bacteria all over the place, but obviously we change over time as a species. Muli sex species are evolutionarily beneficial because sex offers chromosome splitting, sharing, and genetic diversity which allows for the change needed to survive in a "fluid" environment.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by JohnySeagull
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

its not about something being black or white?

its about having faith. if you question some of the stories, you don't have faith. when you have faith or reach a point of belief, nothing matters anymore, you just accpet it all.you cannot have a bit of faith. it is because it is. when you still have questions you are lacking in faith, but dont worry, jesus will forgive you, he is waiting for you.

That sounds terribly black and white to me.

Blind, unquestioning faith doesn't sound even remotely Jesus-y to me. I doubt he'd approve.

I agree, if Jesus were here today, he would probably be what most people call a "hippie".

Originally posted by JohnySeagull
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

its not about something being black or white?

its about having faith. if you question some of the stories, you don't have faith. when you have faith or reach a point of belief, nothing matters anymore, you just accpet it all.you cannot have a bit of faith. it is because it is. when you still have questions you are lacking in faith, but dont worry, jesus will forgive you, he is waiting for you.

You do relaize that each book in the bible was written individually of one another. Then "man" put those books together under the direction of god. This Is how every religious book on the planet was put together. It even says in the bible that man is fallible and will infiltrate the bible with false doctrine. God does not know you, nor has he ever, maybe you should read that book of yours. It's a book written to manipulate man into submission.

You have to take into account a more universal picture though. Mass extinctions and clade sizes. Which are the most successful species in the very long run? Non-sexual reproduction is the winner in those terms. Our existence is a only a blink of the eye in the scheme of things, and our continuation no certainty, individually or globally. More complex does not necessarily mean better, universally speaking.

Originally posted by DarkSarcasm

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by JohnySeagull
reply to post by DarkSarcasm

 

its not about something being black or white?

its about having faith. if you question some of the stories, you don't have faith. when you have faith or reach a point of belief, nothing matters anymore, you just accpet it all.you cannot have a bit of faith. it is because it is. when you still have questions you are lacking in faith, but dont worry, jesus will forgive you, he is waiting for you.

That sounds terribly black and white to me.

Blind, unquestioning faith doesn't sound even remotely Jesus-y to me. I doubt he'd approve.

I agree, if Jesus were here today, he would probably be what most people call a "hippie".

Or terrorist, though I prefer the term 'freedom fighter'.