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Was Jesus the Anti-Christ?

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posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by auraelium
 


Jesus said any man who stands against him is anti-christ. The anti-christ is not one man. Many people confuse the anti-christ with being the Son of Perdition, and is a common misconception. Even I fell into that line of thinking after having it drilled into my head by pentecostal preachers and it took a catholic friend of mine to set me straight.




posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by auraelium
 


So why cant people eat shellfish?

How intelligent is that law... not to mention the stupidity of many others.


All of God's laws have some kind of moral implication or safety implication. Certain kinds of shellfish will kill a human if they eat them.

Swine have parasites that are extemely hard to kill, so the stigma with eating pork was because in those days more often than not you died from parasites like tapeworms because there was no medicine in those days to kill parasites, so God told them "do not eat pork"

Whatever His laws, there was always some kind of moral conotation to them.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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@ mamaj

Jesus himself said "i am the Christ, anyone who stands against me is "anti-christ"". Anti-Christ is plural not singular. So many people get the Son of Perdition (from Revelation) mixed up with anti-christ because they are listening to false prophets who proclaim what they think and not what Christ has told them. The anti-christ has been around since Jesus' time because they are everywhere. Any man or woman who states that Jesus is not real, or is a lie, or a myth is anti-christ. These anti-christ can perform miracles and spout lies in Christ's name but they are False Prophets.

In the Book of Matthew 7: 14-27 Jesus speaks about false Prophets. Basically he states (paraphrased) if anyone claims to work miracles or speaks lies, even if it is in Jesus' name and for his glory he will say to them "depart from me you workers on iniquity, for i knew you not". Jesus will NOT abide by anyone speaking lies in his name even if it is being done to bring souls to him and for his glory. He will cast you out because his ministry was about the truth, and not built on lies.

BTW, this reply is to back you up incase you were wondering. So many people don't know what the anti-christ really is, and i had to set them straight.

edit on 26-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ

Hi again, MamaJ -

Allow me to break down the 'False Prophet = anti-Messiah (i.e. antiChrist) issue a little more - since it seems to be hard for some on this thread to follow, evidently- especially with all the latest in modern texutal biblical scholarship finally coming out to the general public...

Suffice it to say that there was certainly a wide-spread notion in the 1st century CE in Palestine that R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (Gk. 'Iesous'), being of Daviddic descent, was originally 'expected' to do something Messianic about the Roman occupiers since 63 BCE - but failed - ending up as a 'failed Messiah' nailed up naked on a cross - so there was widespread disappointment among most of those who were watching his career up to the end - which occured at the 100th anniversary of the Roman invasion (i.e. 36 CE)

In fact by 36 CE, there were several Daviddic 'Messiah' End of Days Pretenders (see for example Iesous Bar-Abbas, which COULD be construed as a Messianic Title too - literally 'Joshua son of the father' i.e. 'son of god'') who went around Eretz Yisroel declaring that in the End Times, i.e. the last Days, that the 'Times of the Amorites' (i.e. the non Jewish Gentile military Occupiers of the 'holy land') were 'fulfilled' or 'filled up' i.e. all-over-and-done-with(see Gen chapter 15 - 'until such time as when the Times of the Amorites in the Land are fulfilled...') - so by the 100th anniversary of the invasion of the 'gentile' Roman General Pompey (back in 63 BCE when he raided the Temple at Jerusalem for its gold and silver, naturally) it was expected that ('after all, TWO full Jubillees had expired since the Romans invaded Jerusalem taking away 100 years (2 earlier Jubilees) of more or less self-rule after the Maccabean Revolt in BCE 163 - I mean what was YHWH the clan god of the Jews up to?')

It was the follower-disciple-crowd of this Daviddic 'kingly' upstart [who armed his disciples in 36 CE at Passover (I mean, come on, the Slave of the High Priest's ear was not accidentally cut off with a butter-knife left over from the Last Supper !) in an attempt to sieze the Throne back for the Davidds - since the Hashmonean high priests had taken it during the Maccabbean revolt back in 163 BCE ] who were the ones who had to find Midrashic Explanation as to why this unexpected event happened (cf: 'for, lo, they believed the Kingdom of heaven was going to appear at any moment...') - after all, most of them were promised postions in the new government ('and she said to him, When you come into your kingdom, son of David, see that my two sons sit on your right and your left...' or, if you believe the koine Greek of the 3rd canonical gospel ('according to Luke' - whoever he was..)in chapter 22:30 in the 'Last Supper Pericope' where a Greek speaking Iesous blurts out :

'Lo, you 12 are the ones who have endured to the End with Patience [unto death]
Even the [many] Tribulations of the haBar Enasha (the 'Son of Man')
Therefore you shall Eat & Drink at my Table in my Kingdom
And I shall confer upon you 12 Thrones of your own
Just as my Father conferred a Throne upon the Bar Enasha ('Son of Man')
In order that you might be seated thereon to judge the 12 Tribes of Israel....'

This is the kind of talk we hear in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite
(aka 'Book of Revelation' chapter 2:26) e.g.

To him who overcomes to the End with Patience unto Death, shall the Son of Man bestow upon him...

e.g. Authority over the Goyim (i.e. the Gentiles, non-Jews)
that you might Rule them with an iron scepter
and will dash them to pieces like a Potter's Vessel
Just as I have received Authority to Rule over the Goyim from my Father...etc. etc.

-- talk about 'counting your chickens before they hatch' !

At any rate, all this kind of bravado came to nothing at the arrest followed by the Roman Gibbet - so naturally most of his followers began to see him as a failed 'anti-messiah' i.e. Anti Christ who had managed to 'lead the Elect of the house of Yisro'el astray'....

This explains why his die-hard followers who would not accept his execution as fact began to re-trace some of the prophecies that DID NOT come to pass, besides the 'promised cabinet posts' ('thrones') for his loyal followers ('the 12') when 'he came into his Kingdom' like e.g.

'There be some standing here right now who will see the Bar Enasha ('son of man' see Aramaic Daniel 7:13-14) flying on the Clouds of Heaven, sitting at the riight hand of the Power, with all of his Holy Ones with him,,,,')

and devised midrashically inspired legendary stories e.g. the 'Transfiguration', in midrashic expansion fashion, by dredging up old hebrew texts that they could use for a better understanding (the purpose of a midrash is 'to learn a moral lesson', from the Heb. root D-R-Sh - 'to seek out, discover') - with the specificc phrase blasted from the sky - 'this is my Son my elect one, Listen to him !!' - which was meant to reverse the order in Deuteronomy 18 ('if a man should purport to speak an oracle of YHWH and that oracle does NOT come to pass, then that man is a FALSE PROPHET - you SHALL NOT LISTEN TO HIM...')

Since 1st century christians were mainly Jews who could not paint pictures or carve statues (despite Moses and his bronze snake idol or Aaron's golden calves out of spare earings idols !) they 'painted pictures in words' i.e. by using colourful language - drawing upon the images and stories from the 'hebrew Scriptures' that everyone already were familiar with - unlike to-day's Christians to whom most of these images are unknown !!

So some of the Hebrew & Aramaic scriptural verses that the early 'Christians' (Jewish Messianists) used in order to construct their Literary Midrash Pictures i.e. to reverse the explicit Command of YHWH for them NOT to listen to a False Prophet appear in the so-called Transfiguration Pericopes in the 3 synoptic canonical Greek Gospels ('Mark' 9:`1-9, 'Luke 9:27- 34, 'Matthew' 16:27ff) - which takes place - like 'Moses' on his own mountain of EL - after 'SIX DAYS' (a few copyists of the the 3rd canonical gospel 'Luke' sometimes wrote 'after 8 days')

Joel 3:16
('YHWH shall Thunder from Zion, he shall utter his Qol ('voice') out of Jerusalem')

proto-Isaiah chapter 4:2-4
(In that day theNazir ('branch') of YHWH will be bright & glorious...and those remaining in Zion will be called Holy Ones, recorded among the living in Jerusalem,...he shall cleanse Jerusalem by a Spirit of Fire, for then YHWH will create over all who assemble there a CLOUD of SMOKE by day and a glow of FLAMING FIRE by night; over everything the glory[c] will be a TABERNACLE and a SHELTER and shade from the heat of the day, and a refuge and hiding place from the STORM and rain...')

Numbers 16:19 &

Numbers 24: 2ff; 17:ff
(' When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him 3 and he spoke his message: The ORACLE of Balaam son of Beor, the prophecy of one whose eye sees clearly, the prophecy of one who hears the words of EL who sees a vision from EL-YON who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: “How beautiful are your TABERNACLES O Jacob, how lovely your Booths, O Yisroel ! Their king will be greater than Agag; their kingdom will be exalted ! ...I SEE HIM, BUT NOT NOW, I BEHOLD HIM, BUT HE IS NOT NEAR - For lo, a Star will come out of Yakkov; a Scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the heads of Moab and bash in the skulls of the sons of Seth !")

See also: Psalms 29:1-9, Psalms 37:6 & Psalms 44:3
Hebrew Daniel 12:3, I Henoch 38:105,
I Henoch 39:6-15, I Henoch 59:1-3,
I Henoch 62:14-16, I Henoch 71:1-2
Exodus 13:31, Exodus 16:10
Exodus 24:16, Exodus 33:18
Deutero Isaiah 42:16, Deutero-Isaiah 51:4 & Deutero-Isaiah 59:19

In the 4th canonical Greek Gospel ('according to John the Elder' whoever he was) in chapter 12 we see a parallel story where there are two camps among 'the crowd' who see the 'lightning' and hear the 'thunderclaps' but disagree as to its true meaning:

'John' chapter 12:29

'Then a Qol ('voice' or 'peal' or 'sound' etc.) thundered from Heaven, saying, “I have glorified ha Shem and will again glorify it !' And the crowd that was near heard it spokee saying merely, 'Behold, [how] it Thundered !

But others standing there said , 'No, but an Angel has spoken something to him !'.

However, according to the 3 'Synoptic gospels' (according to 'Matthew', 'Mark' & 'Luke', whoever they were) the picture is quite different than John's mere thunderclap and interpretation of some words booming from the skies: in these three gospels, it is far more of a Midrashic verbal tapestry where R. Yehsohua is seen taking only THE INNER THREE of his 12 disciples aside (his 'inner circle of 3 advisors'') just as 'Moses' took 3 of his advisors, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu (in the gospel narratives, specifically the disciples with 'thunder and rock' names are called to witness the 'event'

e.g. Yakkov (=James), Yohanon (=John) i.e the Two Sons of Thunder (benei-Regesh) along with R. Shimeon bar Yonah haKepha (=Simon son of Jonah, the Rock aka 'Peter') up to a 'high rock apart' or a 'mountain top by themselves'.

Notice all the verbal imagery-plays on words of the names of the 3 chosen to 'witness' the event

Peter = the Rock (or 'mountain')
James & John = the 'sons of Thunder'

When during the course of the storm on the mountain they see a light (i.e. lightning) then hear a Qol (a 'voice' i.e. of YHWH, or a 'thunderclap') upon a 'rock' they then interpret what they are 'seeing' and 'hearing' (witness the Brontologion aka 'the Scroll of How to Interpret Thunderclaps' found among the Dead Sea Scrolls - it is significant that the LIGHTNING hits before the QOL (thunderclap/voice of YHWH) as in a real storm.

There are a number of specific verbal parallels directly extracted (i,e, lifted) from the Hebrew Scriptures - e.g. Moses asks to be shown the 'TOVAH' ('goodness') of YHWH as he passes by over head and then is told by YHWH ('It is unlawful for a human to behold my TOVAH, for you will not live - I will show you only my Rear parts !') - whereas in the Transfiguration pericopes, Kephah ('Peter') shouts, 'Rabbi, it is 'Tovah' (i.e. the goodness of YHWH) that is here (often translated as 'Master, it is very good to be here')

When describing the 'whiteness' of the Robes in the Synoptic Transfiguration periocopes, thee whiteness brought about by FULLER'S SOAP is specifically invoked, which echoes Malachi ref the Last Days which also meentions the BRIGHTNESS of FIRE

see Malachi 3:1-3
I will send my Messenger,
Even he who will prepare the way before my Face[s]...
But who shall Abide the Day of his Coming ?
And Who shall Stand in the Day when he Appears?
For he is bright like a Refiner's Fire, whiter than any Fuller's Soap !

In the 3rd canonical gospel account ('according to Luke') the writer states "as these things were quickly fading away..." recalls the Oracle of Balaam abovequoted ('I see him - but not now...')

The 1st canonical gospel account ('according to 'Matthew'
states that the event was a VISION ('tell no son of man this Vision until The Bar Enasha be exalted...') that is, it was not seen according to the 1st gospel as a real live-event - and in the same gospel it states that 'his face shone like the sun at noon...' which recalls Psalms 89:36 - On that Day, his Throne shall endure for ever before my face(s), even as the Sun before me..' or Malachi e.g. 'in the Day when the Sun of Righteousness shall be exalted, with healing in his Wings...'

One would need a separate post to show all 30 of the specific literary verbal parallels from the Hebrew scriptures in these pericopes - but you get the general drift - the author(s) of the canonical Greek gospels were trying to steer 'believers' (or would-be-cconverts) away from thinking their Iesous-hero was a false prophet (i.e. an anti-Christ or anti-Messiah) who died on a cross for being a charlatan...

Clear as mud?



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Thats why you cook things...

Do you take time to think about things before you type them?



posted on Aug, 27 2011 @ 11:02 AM
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reply to post by auraelium
 


Close but it wasn't Jesus. Another fits the prophecies much better.



To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a
righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against
certain details of the Law in order to make the breach


THere is another in the NT that fits all descriptions. Go through the apostle's and
you will see him. BTW, the true Jesus by todays church standards would be deemed
an antichristian.

LOTZA LUV and a great thought provokeing thread thanks



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:04 AM
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reply to post by auraelium
 


If the "false prophet" is going to do all the things that Jesus did, and then some, it should be fairly easy to distinguish who he, she or it is. I personally don't know of anyone who heals the blind, raises the dead, or turns water into wine. Well, doctors can heal the blind and "raise the dead" through modern medicine. Not sure if they can turn water into wine though!



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:09 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


I have read the Bible, the Hebrew, and the Greek. I have a degree in bible literature. I was a fundamentalist "christian" for over 30 years. I got out of it and am thankful for it.
edit on 28-8-2011 by aero56 because: typo



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


"..not everything should be taken as you would think". Hmmm.......how do you determine which is what you think, and which isn't?



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Jesus spoke in parables because he didn't want his enemies to know his teachings, because he didn't want to convert, nor save them. So, looks to me like Jesus chooses who gets into the "kingdom", not anyone else.
edit on 28-8-2011 by aero56 because: typo



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by MamaJ
 


I have read the Bible, the Hebrew, and the Greek. I have a degree in bible literature. I was a fundamentalist "christian" for over 30 years. I got out of it and am thankful for it.
edit on 28-8-2011 by aero56 because: typo


Dang....and you still don't get it? I guess it is not meant for you to understand then. If you want to think of Jesus as the Anti-Christ feel free to. Its your choice.



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Mama J, I have never said that Jesus IS the anti-christ, geez, do you still not get it?



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by MamaJ
 


If he doesn't return, that makes him a false prophet. It's been a long, long wait. It is beginning to feel like a bad joke.


Perhaps you are looking in the wrong places my friend.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Aug, 28 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by auraelium
 


If the "false prophet" is going to do all the things that Jesus did, and then some, it should be fairly easy to distinguish who he, she or it is. I personally don't know of anyone who heals the blind, raises the dead, or turns water into wine. Well, doctors can heal the blind and "raise the dead" through modern medicine. Not sure if they can turn water into wine though!


If you are free then turning water into wine is merely calling water what ever YOU decide to call it. Such is how a King views the world.

Healing the blind is getting others to see this freedom that they possess.

Raising the dead is teaching others to LIVE without fear which is the shackles of their enslavement.

Just my perspective of course.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Jesus spoke in parables because he didn't want his enemies to know his teachings, because he didn't want to convert, nor save them. So, looks to me like Jesus chooses who gets into the "kingdom", not anyone else.


I'd imagine so, He is said King of said kingdom.




posted on Aug, 29 2011 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by MamaJ
 


Mama J, I have never said that Jesus IS the anti-christ, geez, do you still not get it?


Then what ARE you saying? I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone.... trying to understand what you are really trying to convey?? You say you do not think he is the Anti-Christ all the while trying to build a case for it.


Is it me? I sure hope so....



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


I
edit on 30-8-2011 by aero56 because: wrong post



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


It could be you. I've said a couple of times that the idea Jesus could be the "anti christ" is an interesting theory. I have no problem exploring various theories.



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Predestination? Is that what you are saying? If so, a lot of people are going to be greatly surprised.



posted on Aug, 30 2011 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


Interesting perspective. You believe those are symbolic? Do you also believe that heaven and hell are symbolic? I do.



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