Who Were the Ancient Megalithic Builders?

reply to post by SLAYER69

numerous fossil bones indicate some populations of Heidelbergensis were "giants" routinely over 2.13 m (7 ft) tall and inhabited South Africa between 0.5 million and 300,000 years ago.

en.wikipedia.org...

much earlier, but an example of what's possible - they had pretty big brains too. also there are a lot more skeletons in the closet

Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Slamdunk, SLAYER69.

I totally agree. I think they were smarter than we are and were probably neurologically geared to physiologically appreciate a different energetic paradigm at a 'time' when the Earth was different than it is now.

Killer thread; the image collection is stunning.

In my opinion our history [In one way shape or form] goes much farther back than we realize. The Earth in that same time period has gone through several drastic changes. It's really a tribute to our genetic forefathers tenacity and ingenuity that we are even around as a species.

reply to post by aynock


Thank you for posting that. I did in fact consider including that bit but thought it would be better if I left it out.
To be honest, so as to avoid more questions that I didn't have a theory for

Scientist can easily check if a modern human specimen have some neanderthal legacy.
Mitochondrial DNA of neanderthal do not contain hypervariable sequence region II, so it distinct them from modern homo sapiens. As the mitochondrial dna isn't changing with further breeding of species, so it is a steady marker of the specimen. That's how we look for our predecessor a "homo sapiens eve"

So far there's not even a hard scientific evidence that homo sapiens crossbreed with Neanderthals, although it was possible. Using genetic markers there's also no evidence that Neanderthal lived even 20 thousands years ago, not even mentioning few thousands years BC.

Originally posted by SonOfKal
Had to skim, because going to work, but that is BEAUTIFUL!!
But a quick word: 3 books for a MUST read (if you haven't already:
Emerald Tablets of Toth

Giza Power Plant

The Lost Book of Enki

(I'm still learning, myself!)

You know.

I've been sent links to those before and a few members have sent me U2Us suggesting those as well. I might just have to break down and take some time exploring those.

Thanks.

Originally posted by piotrburz
Scientist can easily check if a modern human specimen have some neanderthal legacy.
Mitochondrial DNA of neanderthal do not contain hypervariable sequence region II, so it distinct them from modern homo sapiens. As the mitochondrial dna isn't changing with further breeding of species, so it is a steady marker of the specimen. That's how we look for our predecessor a "homo sapiens eve"

This thread may be of interest to you.

Mans Genetic voyage: Part I

reply to post by SLAYER69


Very good thread but.......I don't agree with the out of Africa Theory that most people accept....Known graves have been dug and only fragments of bone or no bone have been found,....and these graves are only a few hundred years old. This I am told is due to acid soil.
So I put it to you that different types of man evolved on different continents.

It could be the War loving race from Mars that came here after destroying there own Planet.... Hmmm why did we call Mars the God of War.

We have the technology now.... to move to Mars ......so don't roll about laughing to quickly.

We are trying to Destroy this planet..........wonder if Mars is fixed yet.

Ok you can laugh now if you must.

I would wish to see some PhD archaeologist/anthropologist to argue with slayer69.
Right now everyone is only saying "omg great thread, so much to read S&F".
Myself don't have sufficient knowledge to argue, but right now the discussion seems very one-sided and biased toward salyer69 speculations.

An pretty good article about distinction between neanderthal and homo sapiens:
www.nature.com...

Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
I will be honest when I read that this original post said "this will be a reinterpretation of known facts" I sighed and decided not to do anything more than skim through and try to hit on the more important bits. But you do realize the reason facts are facts is because they are most logical, most likely, most evidence backed ideology?

Thank you for your honesty, it is insightful and revealing (though not in the way you intended, perhaps). You do realize that a few hundred years ago it was a "fact" ("most logical, most likely, most evidence backed ideology" -- right?) that the earth was flat, disease was a punishment from an angry God and not born of germs and viruses, and belief in Copernicus' heliocentric model was heresy punishable by death?

Funny what happens to those "facts" over time...

I would also have to be a downer, but in ancient times, ALL people did was hunt/gather and move rocks. They didn't have anything else to do.

Is this a "fact"?

There appears to be evidence surviving in modern times that the ancients also procreated (for which I, personally, am thankful), painted, carved, sculpted, practiced astronomy/religion/medicine/alchemy, etc.

Deny what? (answer: ignorance).

Many ancient stone structures, probably the majority, were constructed with slave labor, or slaves to religion. People spent generations making these.

Great sources -- thanks for sharing your "evidence backed ideology"...

It took modern man 10 years to build the twin towers in new york that folks here love so much to talk about.

Aaaaaand WOW. I'll try not to read too much into that 'un. But it's tough...

It took ancient man (or his predecessors if we're going back so far) many times that and thousands more people to construct their stone behemoths. When an ancient civilization began construction of a huge stone building or wall, the ancient civilization (not just bits and pieces of it) began construction.

More "facts"?

How does Edward Leedskalnin's works fit into your "ideology" here?

Originally posted by piotrburz
I would wish to see some PhD archaeologist/anthropologist to argue with slayer69.
Right now everyone is only saying "omg great thread, so much to read S&F".
Myself don't have sufficient knowledge to argue, but right now the discussion seems very one-sided and biased toward salyer69 speculations.

It's a theory.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Not a scientific fact.

Magnificent work.

Loved reading it, and following your thoughts.

However, I have two points I want to add to your thoughts. One is historical, and the other is scientific. The historical part, is that you should consider the above thread of the sami. We used to call them "vænir". We, originally nordic, are not European although we are caucasian. We line our heritage as Asian. We originally moved to Northern Europe, from the steps of China. Look at findings in China, and you will find proof of this. We fought the Chinese and lost, and moved to Northern Europe. We faught the Germans and lost. Europeans are a mixture of many people, that lost in the battle and as a result became a mixture of people that have lineage here and there.

The scientific part is, that these megalithic structures were not made by people of immense strength although that may have helped a lot. And no matter how strong, they could not have moved these structures. Perhaps by using "dynosaurs" as slaves, like in Fred Flinstone, could this be accomplished.

The earth itself, changes. And gravity has changed. When these blocks were moved, and these monalithic structures built. Gravity on earth, was much less. Making these blocks, far from as heavy as they are today. Some of these areas, were on a gravitational mountain, where blocks were especially light. Which is why many such structures are on mountains, and hills. Gravity as you experience it, on the surface of the earth, is not created by the enormous amount of rock beneath you. But by the enormously dense plasma that is underneath the crost, and in the core of the earth. Take a look at this picture




The lower image, shows the crust of the earth elevated. An elevation like that, if it could hold for a period of time, would have made the top of the hill, enormously gravity light. As the distance to the magma is perhaps twice the thickness of the earths crust. This would make some areas on the earth, more "valid" for building such structures than others. And as the earth changes, and this leverage is decreased. Gravity is increased, and you no longer are capable of the same feats.

reply to post by dontlaughthink


Variety is the spice of life.
It would be one horribly boring place to live in if we all thought and did the same exact things.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Superb job, Slayer.

Adding my 2 cts :
I spent a few days in Corsica, lately. There is in the site of FILITOSA, a very rare specimen of engraved menhirs, which may give us an idea of how they saw themselves ... or their "gods" :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/25b6db3acb8d.jpg[/atsimg]

I went also in the island or MINORCA (Baleares, in the Mediterranean sea).
Very nice specimens of "TAU" shaped menhirs :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/71b8c5c2c2d4.jpg[/atsimg]

And a very special monument, which resembles an upside-down ship, called "Navetta" :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d6b1731eeb15.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8e0fd28f111c.jpg[/atsimg]

Once more, bravo for your very inspiring thread !

reply to post by orkson


No...

Thank you.
Those are some awesome images. I appreciate you posting them. It's obvious ancient man wasn't so primitive.
Conversely we aren't as "Advanced" as we perceive ourselves to be.

Again thank you for those images.
Great contribution.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Gen.6

1. [4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Bar.3

1. [26] There were the giants famous from the beginning, that were of so great stature, and so expert in war.
Num.13

Sir.16

1. [7] He was not pacified toward the old giants, who fell away in the strength of their foolishness.
1. [33] And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deut.2

1. [11] Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
2. [20] (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;

Deut.3

1. [11] For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
2. [13] And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

Josh.12

1. [4] And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,

Josh.18

1. [16] And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to En-rogel,


Seems to me there were large people in the past that may have been a little larger say 2 to 3 times larger then us that were the builders of these Megalithic structures.

But hey I know if the Bible is true then all this evolutionary philosophy would then be false.

Hmmp the mind of the unwilling is so stubborn to the truth. Just as the Bible says.

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
But hey I know if the Bible is true then all this evolutionary philosophy would then be false.

Hmmp the mind of the unwilling is so stubborn to the truth. Just as the Bible says.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation"

Herbert Spencer

(27 April 1820 – 8 December 1903)

reply to post by SLAYER69

I however am starting believe [as do many others] that the Romans reclaimed and constructed on top of a much older prehistoric platform built by some of those Megalithic builders of old. Many sites around the world have been reclaimed and recycled so to speak by the newer generations, cultures and or civilizations. Look all over Mexico for example, we find land and temples often reclaimed then built on top of the older more ancient ruins etc. I think this process of reclamation occurred world wide and not just in the new world.

Now what you say here is very interesting to me for a few reasons. This is what I believe happened in Egypt in regards to some of the Pyramids and also possibly at sites in the Yucatan. A lot of the Pyramids in both those places seemed to have decreased in quality over time. There not being in markings whatsoever inside the great pyramid is also a pretty good indication in my mind that it wasn't built by who we presently believe. There is also another pyramid, the name really escapes me but it is supposed to be far older than all of the other pyramids, and is closely guarded with very limited access. Not sure the name....

In regards to there being some middle stage of development for humans I really don't know, although there are some interesting points to raise in regards to this I believe. One thing that I find very interesting is the Mayan god Kukulcan, also Quetzalcoatl.

We find writing from the Mayans and sculptures of what is thought to be Kukulcan and they depict a very European looking figure, totally different from how the Mayan's looked.

Mayan's were dark skinned Latin looking people. They were normally not very tall and had brown eyes. Kukulcan in his human form was a complete contrast, having white or silver hair, white skin, blue eyes, and he was tall. Scientist and scholars alike have all wondered why this could have been the case? Why would a civilization have a divine figure, a god that looked nothing like themselves? Why would he look like people found in Western civilization? One theory actually involves the lost city of Atlantis!

Some would think that once Atlantis as described by Plato sank into the ocean some of its citizens would have survived. One man, Kukulcan, could have made his way into Mesoamerica and taught the Mayan's the secrets of his lost city. This fits the profile of what Kukulcan would have been like, coming from the sea, looking like a European, and teachings of government, medicine, and agriculture, all fit into the idea that Kukulcan could have been from the ancient Atlantis. Also when he left, this mystery man could have traveled across Mexico and found those form the Aztec civilization.

Some would think that once Atlantis as described by Plato sank into the ocean some of its citizens would have survived. One man, Kukulcan, could have made his way into Mesoamerica and taught the Mayan's the secrets of his lost city. This fits the profile of what Kukulcan would have been like, coming from the sea, looking like a European, and teachings of government, medicine, and agriculture, all fit into the idea that Kukulcan could have been from the ancient Atlantis. Also when he left, this mystery man could have traveled across Mexico and found those form the Aztec civilization.

Both the Mayan and Aztec civilizations remain mostly undiscovered and many mysteries surround both, but still the legend of Kukulcan and his many temples and statues astound and baffle scientist, and will for centuries to come.
LINK

It is interesting that Kukulcan was said to be European in appearance for a few reasons that should be obvious. Ancient legends of Atlantis say that the survivors split off, some heading east and some heading west. The survivors are said to have arrived in Egypt and in the Yucatan. So anyway it may be possible that the above mentioned gods were survivors of Atlantis and of an earlier and possibly more advanced period in human history that we are presently aware.

Another thing worthy of a mention is the size of Quetzalcoatl's sarcophagus, around 9ft tall I believe. So there are a few things to ponder there in regards to the builders of the earlier anomalous structures. Gobekli Tepe as you mentioned also comes to mind, at what 12,000 years old? There certainly seems like there MUST have been a civilization or two that we are not aware of that may or may not be the builders of some of the greatest stone structures on the planet. Whether they did this with technological know how or did it by sheer physical might is up for debate, although I would personally say a combination of the two....

Cheers

reply to post by SLAYER69


How interesting!

I was just pondering over this very subject, I then log on to ATS only to find the subject already being discussed!

Anyway, it is a subject I find very exciting. I’ll add my thoughts on the matter:

I
One point you may have excluded (I have not as yet read through the entire post, so apologies if I’m wrong) is the correlation between the many expansions of h. sapiens over the globe and the interbreeding with h. neanderthalensis.

Since most non-africans carry a varying amount of neanderthal genes, the earliest interbreeding among the two species must have occurred in the Middle East, the first area which humans travelled to out of Africa, and where populations of Neanderthals were living. Thereafter, h. sapiens spread to India, Southeast Asia, Central Asia, Australia and East Asia (areas generally populated by h. erectus). Then, for some reason (possibly climatic reasons – the ice age), Europe seems to have been among the very last areas on the globe to be inhabited by h. sapiens. Crossing over to Europe from Russia, Turkey and the Gibraltar Straits. This is believed to have happened at the latest, around 35.000 years ago.

Now, these h. sapiens crossing over to Europe would carry with them genes from h. neanderthalensis (from the Middle East), and perhaps even from h. erectus? On top of this, they would then interbreed with the Neanderthal populations living there, getting a new boost with Neanderthal genes; this would explain why Europeans have the largest amount of N-genes.

The human populations elsewhere would, by the time of the megalithic constructions (see below), have assimilated so far with the other hominids as to make little difference in their construction.

II
The other point is about Neanderthal genes playing a part in the construction of megalithic sites.

First of all, these early megalithic structures were most commonly in the shape of: standing stones (menhirs), alignments (stone rows) and dolmens (megalithic burials). Of course there are many other types, but what is important is that the earliest ones were generally of the above three types. Before asking ourselves the question whether anything “neanderthal” participated in the construction of these monuments one has to know the proper context within which these monuments were constructed.

Their builders were certainly very interested in one thing: huge rocks. Out of all materials, why choose rocks, why not build monuments out of mud, earth, wood or bone? (well, they probably did but nothing of it would remain today). Even if they built things of other materials, the choice of rocks highlights that there was something special about them.
If they lacked any significance, why waste so much blood, sweat and tears to cut, transport and build? This in my opinion implies that they did not choose rocks just for the sake of it, it implies that it was something special about the rocks, but what?

In prehistoric times, rocks would appear to be the most indestructible element known to stone age man. Well, that is, until they decided to try and “destroy” them, break down huge rocks into smaller ones, turn them into objects, or transport them over long distances for the purpose of constructing great monuments, of which some would be burial sites for their dead. I could go on forever about the symbolism of rocks, but the choice of rocks was special.

If the hybrids participated in the constructions, perhaps they wanted to “tame” the almost invincible rocks with their added strength, to become masters of the rocks, and bury their dead within them. It sure is an interesting thought.

But when exactly were these monuments erected?

Now, the earliest Megalithic structures (yet discovered) is Göbekli Tepe, in Turkey, with its 12.000 years of age. Then, between 10000 and 3200 years ago, megaliths were constructed in Europe. Most of them, however, were erected during the Neolithic (6500-3500 years ago).
This is a very long time (like 20.000 years) after the last Neanderthals (well, the last yet discovered). But were the N-genes still strong among the humans of Europe at the megalithic period? Did the hybrids still “exist”?

I do not know for certain if the “Neanderthal strength” would survive in our genes for so long (I know too little about genetics), but we do happen to have the highest percentage of N-genes right here in Europe, it is an interesting thought however.

As for the rest of the world:

In the Western Middle East and North Africa (and parts of East Africa too), there was also many megalithic constructions, however I’m not certain of the dating here (logically, some would follow in the Göbekli tradition).

Megaliths are found in Northeast Asia too. In fact, Korea has the highest concentration of megalithic burials in the world (some 40% of all megalithic burials worldwide). They have been dated to 3500 years ago at the latest (and the last were constructed around 2500 years ago). In Southeast Asia too, the Megalithic tradition is commonplace and persisted in some places well into the 19th century. Of South Asia I know little of Megaliths, but I have read of some findings there as well.

In conclusion it seems that the East Asian ones was constructed very late in our history, so the N-genes would probably have been so watered down as to make zero difference. Perhaps the same is true of the rest of Asia (haven’t found much yet on datings). But as for Europe (which was among the latest to be populated by h. sapiens and getting a fresh injection of new h. Neanderthal blood) it is perhaps possible that hybrids were still in existence. What we know for certain is that we do not know exactly what techniques stone age people used to construct the megalithic sites. Experiments have shown that they can be constructed by our hands alone without too much effort. But it will still remain speculations.

It is a very interesting thought, but I would like to hear the opinion from someone with knowledge of genetics.

Slayer - only had time to read the 1st page of this thread, but as always you don't disappoint! I will try to catch up later (s&f will follow!).

For now, replying to subscribe.

reply to post by Mahasamadhi


Excellent contribution.

Very well thought out and I too as well would like to hear from those more knowledgeable in the field of Genetics to chime in.