My opinion of the Gnostic Demiurge

Whats your opinion of this concept??

I just finished reading hans jonas' 'the gnostic religion' and it just got me thinking about whole concept of the demiurge.

It literally inverts everything Judaism holds sacred; everything which would appear to be intuitively true, and objective, ie; a G-d in control of his creation, and mankind, made in his image, is stripped of all its sacred meaning by the gnostics. G-d is no longer the creator, but simply a 'archon', a deluded archon, who believes he is the highest power.

This system sounds very sophisticated, i suppose, but it really doesnt stand at all when subjected to the light of reason. Who created this archon? Why is he deluded? How did he become deluded? what purpose does his delusion serve? It seems to me that this conception of the gnostic demiurge is for no other purpose but to oppose the Jewish G-d. They applied all their mental powers in explaining why the creator G-d, as evisioned by the Torah, is not G-d (although their treatment of the subject is haphazard. They seem to have no knowledge of the much more reasonable exegetical interpretation of G-ds two main names, Elohim and YHVH. Elohim would seem to be more consonant with their demiurge idea than YHVH is; yet both are interchangably thrown under that rubric "demiurge". No deeper analysis exists, because they DONT WANT to see the Jewish Torah as any revelation to mankind)

Additionally, the gnostics got this demiurge idea from Plato (who structured it differently, and with less irreverence, than the gnostics did) in his timaeus. Additionally, Plato is said to have recieved the core of his religious knowledge from the academies in Egypt, and undoubtedly his Timaeous reflects some general belief prevalent in Egypt about the Jewish creator G-d.

With regard to the 7 archons, why would the Jewish G-d serve as the highest?? I under the impression that 7 - wherever it exists in the ancient cosmologies, refers to the same thing. In the Kabbalah, 7 refers to the structure of this lower world, which is built from the archetypal quality of 7. 6 of which are active, while the 7th is the sphere or element in which the 6 function. So, generally speaking, this septenary is a very general and vague construct, yet appears to be true.

For some odd, inexplicable reason (yet something modern occultists cheerfully agree with) , the Jewish G-d is the highest archon. Fine. Ok.

In the Kabbalah, YHVH is associated with Ze'ir Anpin, the Short face, while Elohim is associated with Nukva and Imma. The lower Elohim, Nukva, seems to correspond to the gnostic 'sophia'. While the higher Elohim corresponds to the higher sophia (in some systems of gnosticism, the sophia is two). So, the 1st and 8th spheres correspond to this 'female' element. Definitely there appears to be a congruence in formulation between kabbalah and gnosticism here (not that i think Kabbalah has taken from gnosticism. Im of the opinion that Kabbalah, 10 sefiroth, 22 letters etc, is something the elites of many different cultures in the orient were knowledgeable of.), So, conceptually speaking, the gnostic demiurge - the 7 spheres - and the Ze'ir Anpin = YHVH (tifereth being the sphere in which he manifests) align with the same reality.

Now, this is where my confusion sets in. Why would G-d NOT manifest in this lower world? Why do they assume G-d, a reality they acknowledge to exist anyhow, doesnt care, or want, this lower world? Is this not an assumption they are making? What makes there assumption any more true than the Jewish one?

To me, just as we are born from an infinite state of being, and come into this world as a differentiated, finite personality, wouldnt it be entirely logical, and indeed, perfect, for the ineffable creator to likewise contract his infinitude to RELATE with this lower reality; an objective world. In this objective world, an objective set of archetypes emerges. Elohim as the force of contraction, is associated with nature (Another issue i have is. How can any person knowledgeable of Hebrew, and its mind boggling mysteries, not be in awe of the creator? How dare they be so arrogant to think that this doesnt deserve awe and admiration!) which of course has the same Gematria. And same with Kos - a cup, which holds another substance (YHVH), and to further the incredibly mysteries of Gematria, KLI YHVH, the vessel of YHVH, is also 86. This proves that Elohim is an ARCHETYPE of contraction. One of the most basic elements in creation. At a higher, more emotional level, YHVH emerges. This name APPLIES to THIS reality. Whats so hard to comprehend? As long as we exist in this world, YHVH is our G-d. He is he creator of reality; it is the tetragrammaton, the essential name. Within this name all levels cohere; Upper Yod is Keter, Yod is Hokmah, Heh is Binah, Vav is the six sefiroth, and the final Heh Malkuth.

This makes a hell of alot more sense than postulating that the Jewish G-d must be a deluded archon who wants to siphon lifeforce frm mankind; and prevent them from serving the highest father, or realizng their inherent Godliness.

From my knowledge, serving Hashem doesnt prevent man from reaching the highest power. How could it? How does this postulate make ANY sense whatsover? How can someone simultaneously - as the deluded gnostics do - believe that G-d exists, yet deny that he has any relationship with this reality. It doesnt make sense to me.

If the issue is realizing our inherent Godliness, or manifesting incredible spiritual powers, i still dont see how worshipping Hashem prevents this. If anything, it facilitates this.

But alas. I know why these people act as they do. I now understand proffesor Narretts pithy reply ( i aske him this same question). These pagans arev stricken with an anger - jealousy . I dont know if its toward the Jews, or towards this physical world, or towards G-d, but they are motivated by a strong, very pessimistic attitude towards NEGATING Judaism.

In all that i heve studied, i cannot agree with the gnostics. Their objectivity is compromised. The history of the Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantium, and Middle Age persecution of th Jews bears testament AGAINST them. They have the same agenda. And they go about very immoral, and very evil ways to punish the Jews.

They are EGOTISTS; and as William James aptly said in his 'varities of religious experiences', the future world is for the saints; or said differently, for Hebraism. For Judaism to assert its holiness, and righteous the world over. For all men to submit to an objective moral standard; not simply out of a sense of utilitarianism, but out of a love for G-d.

Why is loving G-d so cliche? or so strange? One can love himself, or love others. But loving G-d, that ineffable, inexplicable presence in your life. That spirit from beyond which draws me inwards, towards Him. How is that strange??

That is LIFE. That is the epitome of our mission in this world.

reply to post by dontreally

Who created this archon?

Sophia did it by accident. Her creation (Yaldabaoth) woke up and saw creation and mistakenly believed that it created it. That is why he is referred to as a blind idiot.

The minions (emanations) he created to over see this creation are called the Archons.

No deeper analysis exists,

That's because these folks were systematically wiped out by the Catholic church. Search the saying 'Kill them all let god sort them out (God will know his own)', you are in for a little surprise concerning the origins of that saying.

The knowledge that the so-called Gnostics had was really old and fragmentary even during their hey day. No deeper analysis exists because there is very little to analyze.

I understand that you see this 'Gnosticism' as an attempt to obfuscate Judaism but realize that whatever obfuscation Judaism has suffered was suffered tenfold by the 'Gnostics' at the hands of the Catholic church.

So, conceptually speaking, the gnostic demiurge - the 7 spheres - and the Ze'ir Anpin = YHVH (tifereth being the sphere in which he manifests) align with the same reality.

Yeah, there's a puzzle to figure out for sure. But I would like to suggest that 'Kabbalah' is only useful to 'Kabbalists'.

This makes a hell of alot more sense than postulating that the Jewish G-d must be a deluded archon who wants to siphon lifeforce frm mankind; and prevent them from serving the highest father, or realizng their inherent Godliness.

I actually believe the opposite. I think it is really funny how two people can come to different conclusions when exposed to the same material.

We come into this world as slaves; not free people. The siphoning is just par for the course; a regular matter of affairs here in the sub lunar realm.

How could it? How does this postulate make ANY sense whatsover? How can someone simultaneously - as the deluded gnostics do - believe that G-d exists, yet deny that he has any relationship with this reality. It doesnt make sense to me.

They believed that god exists but that he is a counterfeit god that created a counterfeit world due to an accident (abortion) on the part of Sophia. They had a relationship with this entity but it was acknowledged as a Slave/Master relationship.

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Please realize that this was not a matter of just a few egotistical 'Gnostics' Ther numbers filled Europe. 10s of 1000s of them were exterminated by the Catholic church, not the Jews.

Why? Why the incredibly intense progrom of extermination of these people?

Cause they were short sighted and egotistical? I don't think so.

Why is loving G-d so cliche? or so strange? One can love himself, or love others. But loving G-d, that ineffable, inexplicable presence in your life. That spirit from beyond which draws me inwards, towards Him. How is that strange??

Better make sure you've got the right God.

Why do the beliefs of the Gnostics create so much anxiety for Judeo Christians?

Could it be cognitive dissonance?

I dunno.

Here is my own thread on the subject matter...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Gnosticism originated with the early Christians before the Roman empire made Christianity official. Gnosticism was about reaching the Creator through one's self, as opposed to the church. Since Jesus was opposed to the establishment church and its ways, it only makes sense that the spirit of Christ led to gnosticism, which gnosis translates as "knowledge" so they were about the knowledge of God as opposed to the rituals of the church. The Church, viewing gnosticism as competition, deemed their enemies heretics and burnt them at the stake. I'm sure Jesus would have been proud.

Originally posted by filosophia
Gnosticism originated with the early Christians before the Roman empire made Christianity official.

Could you source that?

Gnosticism was about reaching the Creator through one's self, as opposed to the church.

I'm not sure that the Church claims that one finds God through the Church.

Since Jesus was opposed to the establishment church and its ways,

Could you source that?

it only makes sense that the spirit of Christ led to gnosticism, which gnosis translates as "knowledge" so they were about the knowledge of God as opposed to the rituals of the church.

To be fair, they were about SECRET knowledge which they claimed to possess prior to Christ-- as in a secret path to navigate the soul through the heavens to find Heaven-- as in "second star to the left and straight on till dawn."

The Church rituals are not about "knowledge of God" they are about spiritual nourishment and worship.

The Church, viewing gnosticism as competition, deemed their enemies heretics and burnt them at the stake.

I think "infiltration" is as accurate as "competition." Pseudepigrapha.

Could you provide a source for the Christians burning Gnostics at the stake?

The Gnostic Gallery
A Brief Visual Tour of Evidence for Gnostics and the Mysteries

One of the difficulties we face in getting a clear sense of Gnostics, Pagan religion, and the Mysteries, is the lack of tangible evidence. Most of the original literature of Pagan spirituality was intentionally destroyed, and the rest was eaten by the ravages of time. The Greek dramatist Aeschylus wrote over ninety plays, of which nine have survived intact.

This is a good benchmark. About ten percent or less of all Pagan literature survives, and probably less than one-tenth of one percent of Gnostic writings and textual material collected in the libraries attached to the Mystery Schools. (On the Coptic Gnostic texts found in Egypt in 1945, see When the Mysteries Died.) What of other evidence, such as artifacts and architecture? Consider the Greco-Roman ruins spread across Europe from the western shores of Ireland and Scotland down to the tip of the Iberian peninsula, around the Mediterranean basin and throughout Egypt and the Levant—all this is evidence of Pagan religion and the widespread network of the Mysteries. In many cases, the ruins of classical world are superposed over another layer of evidence: the megalithic constructions of prehistory.

The sacred grottos of the Black Virgin, for instance, became the sites for cathedrals and abbeys at Chartres, Glastonbury, and elsewhere. Shamanic religion in Europa was the prehistorical matrix of the Mysteries. This archeological evidence is also spread all across Europe and into the Middle East. The purpose of this gallery is to display non-textual evidence presenting visual traces of the Mysteries and the Gnostic seers, the telestai, who directed them. In some cases, the evidence points in a general way to Pagan religion, in other instances, it indicates specific aspects of Gnostic practice and Mystery ritual. The value of this evidence lies in its visual impact (short of going to the places depicted), but I have supplied brief comments to describe.

www.metahistory.org...

The Gnostics were an off shoot of the mystery schools and before that Pagan shamanic traditions - they way predate Monotheism. They were essentially seers and mystics, deriving their knowledge from first hand encounters with the energies of the spirit worlds.

They simply 'saw' just what Yahwe and the Archons were - imposters, parasites and predators. as in fact anyone with an ounce of commonsense should really be able to tell just from their ridiculous utterances and commands!

A Cosmic Abortion

The central event in Gnostic cosmology concerns the Aeon Sophia, a divinity in the Pleroma (astronomically speaking, the core of our galaxy, or any galaxy). In the scenario of the Fallen Sophia, the Aeon plunges from the cosmic center and produces a massive perturbation in the realms of elementary matter, the encircling limbs. This mythological event may be envisioned in a way consistent with modern cosmological physics: The erratic surge of a plasmatic stream from the galactic core exites the elementary matter in the limbs, producing a spate of inorganic life-forms.

They are called Archons (from the Greek archai, "prior, from the beginning") because they arise first, before the sun and the planetary system as a whole. Archons are humanoid creatures of inorganic composition, but alive and aware in their own way. Their first habitat is the region where the galactic limb has been impacted by the "shoot" of plasma from the core. (Astrophysicists now surmise the existence of such shoots by the evidence of thread-like tunnels extending from the core, or central bulge, into the limb-structure.) This agitation occurs in the region of Orion, the most well-known and easily recognized of all the starry constellations. The Archontic entities so produced are of two types, neonate (or embryonic, resembling the human foetus) and drakonic (resembling reptiles or lizards, but still humanoid). The rudimentary forms of these entities can be traced in fractal patterns around the Mandelbrot Set. (See Alien Dreaming.)

Gnostics called this event "the generation of the Archons," or "the generation of error," because they equated the Archons with the human tendency for error—a curious trope, to be explained below, concerning the Gnostic theory of error, and in the profile of Archontic intrusion in How We Are Deviated. In a bizarre image, the fractal Archon generation is compared to "an abortion without any power of its own. Like a shadow it came into existence in a vast watery substance... And Sophia hovered over the chaotic matter, which has been expelled like an aborted foetus." (On the Origin of the World, 99: 5-10, 20-25)

www.metahistory.org...

Sophia did it by accident. Her creation (Yaldabaoth) woke up and saw creation and mistakenly believed that it created it. That is why he is referred to as a blind idiot.

You misunderstood my point.

The Gnostics either ignored, or were ignorant of, the traditional exegesis of the Torah.

The problem is in referring to YHVH as a demiurge, interchangably with G-ds other names.

In the Bible, the name of G-d which created the world is Elohim - and not YHVH.

The oral tradition, ie; kabbalah, explains the significance of these two names. The latter name, YHVH, is a HIGHER name; so how exactly do both these names fit the Gnostic sheme, when only Elohim, kabbalistically understood, adheres to the gnostic definition of the demiurge.

This is the singular issue for me. People automatically assume that what the gnostics have to say about the Jewish G-d has validity; and they believe this without knowing a single shred of biblical exegesis - or tradtional orthodox Kabbalah.

Thats not objective. If you want to come to a clearer understanding of any subject, you study both sides. You give both sides an opportnity to present their views, and whichever one comes off as more reasonable to you, you believe.

The gnostic consideration of the Bible, and the Jewish G-d is entirely arbitrary. He is thought of as a "G-d of (mere) Justice", or at worst, a perverted archon. Have these people even read the bible?

That's because these folks were systematically wiped out by the Catholic church. Search the saying 'Kill them all let god sort them out (God will know his own)', you are in for a little surprise concerning the origins of that saying

Seeing that the Catholic Church continued the persecutions of the Selucid Greeks under Antiochus (this being what haunukah celebrates, the Jewish spirit overcoming, or outlasting, the hellenistic spirit) and the Romans, its not hard to explain why that is, when one properly understands Christian scriptures.

The pauline letters are entirely gnostic. The gospels also appear to have many gnostic elements within it. Therefore, was the catholic churches persecutions of the gnostics, manicheans, cathars etc, doctrinal, or political? Id say the latter makes much more sense.

I understand that you see this 'Gnosticism' as an attempt to obfuscate Judaism but realize that whatever obfuscation Judaism has suffered was suffered tenfold by the 'Gnostics' at the hands of the Catholic church.

umm. I wouldnt say that at all. You should read 'constantines sword'.

The Jews have endured a much longer oppression under the catholic church, ie; being burned in synagogues, forced conversions, locked up in ghettos, than the gnostics have.

We come into this world as slaves; not free people. The siphoning is just par for the course; a regular matter of affairs here in the sub lunar realm.

I dont get that. How is that a 'regular matter of affairs"?? Because Gnostics and Theosophists say so?

This is also one of the reasons the Catholic Church parodied and dumbed down the essence of Judaism; and of course this parody lies in its paradoxical teaching that Church and State are to be separated. One cannot be expected to serve G-d, and ENJOY it, if the state is not also behind it, serving as a vehicle to facilitate its acceptance.

The way ive obseved Jews serve G-d, does not at all jibe with this gnostic idea of a archon that siphons mans life force.

G-d is INTEGRATED into ones very being. One makes His will, his own. This is the essence of Judaism; the transendental deity, becomes materialized within the affairs of this lower world. Everything becomes an avenue of connecton with G-d. Eveyrthing becomes spiritualized, and rooted back to its essential and unified source.

This, according to Gnostics, is the trick of a deluded archon?

I would actually think the opposite. Those who believe that such a lofty, and spiritual understanding of life is nothing but a trick, or delusion, are the ones who are deluded, and profoundly arrogant to boot to speak so disparagingly of an objectively good and righteous belief system.

It is not the frigided, mechanical thing occultists would have us believe. Its incredibly ALIVE - and vivacious, and exciting. One should simply check out the writings of Chassiduth to see how deeply emotional Judaism is. The two main school in Chassidic teaching, are the ChaBaD lubavitch, which stresses a much more metaphysical doctrine (chabad after is an acronym for the three intellectual powers) while the Breslovers, founded by Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, goes to the very soul of ones relationship with G-d; based in a profound simplicity.

They believed that god exists but that he is a counterfeit god that created a counterfeit world due to an accident (abortion) on the part of Sophia. They had a relationship with this entity but it was acknowledged as a Slave/Master relationship.

We all have our own assumptions. We all have our own emotional bases, in which we use our intellectual powers to justify. This assumption, that this incredibly beautiful physical world, with its incredible wonders - space, the stars, animals, a lake, the ocean etc, is an 'abortion', is wayyyyy too pessimistic an outlook on life for me to accept.

Cause they were short sighted and egotistical? I don't think so.

Its primarely their attitude of hate and aversion towards the Jews which makes them egotistical. Additionally, they misrepresent, and distort Judaism, with enjoyment.

Theres a great deal of sadism, and masochism in Gnosticism.

Why do the beliefs of the Gnostics create so much anxiety for Judeo Christians?

How couldnt it cause confusion? Its an absurdly strange belief system. The fact that G-d is seen as an 'alien' (todays grey alien being a modern myth for this conception) and this world as a evil, ugly mistake, all this does strike one as disturbing. Its as disturbing as one when hears news of a grissly murder. Nobody wants to see or hear of another person being butchered to death. Likewise, i dont want people to hate G-d; to oppose a conception of reality which is objectively good, and righteous and wholesome.

It is disturbing. But, that may in fact be the emotion most experienced by gnostics. This world is a devastatingly disturbing place. Thus, there solution is devastatingly radical, and out there. Solution? Ascticism or libertinism. Forget about the wholesome and conscientious incentives of Judaism.

This is why Gnosticism, to me, so naturally advances the essence of ancient Egyptian philosophy. Egypt was called the 'land of the dead', for a good reason. It was profoundly nihilistic in its conception of reality.

Heres something to make you think.

Given the mysteries, and esoteric basis of all religions, why does the Catholic Church, as admitted at the Vaticans own website, have a 4000 year old Obelisk from Heliopolis Egypt, standing in the middle of St Peters Basillica??? What could this possibly symbolize?

reply to post by dontreally


Thanks for your reply. I will keep it short because I have ti run.

Why would the people who we refer to as the Gnostics be interested in biblical exegesis?

Know what I mean? Trying to put the Gnostics into context with Judeo Christianity by using these texts as a measuring rule seems a little misguided to me. I mean no offense; I just am amazed, myself, when folks try to understand 'Gnosticism' from this angle.

Yes, of course it was political; and probably, like everything else in the world, had to do with a lot of things; forgotten things.

Whatever the Cathars were doing was hugely popular and catching on. Why?

Why would 'Elohim' not jibe with the 'Gnostics? Elohim is at least plural. Sophia had to emanate from someplace; and the demiurge emanated from 'Her'; plural. Maybe for some reasons the Jews don't see Sophia's accident as an accident.

The Jews have endured a much longer oppression under the catholic church, ie; being burned in synagogues, forced conversions, locked up in ghettos, than the gnostics have.

Yeah, because it seems the Catholics got the 'Gnostics' all at once; in one giant military conflagration.

I dont get that. How is that a 'regular matter of affairs"?? Because Gnostics and Theosophists say so?

Yep, a regular matter of affairs because it is purely biological; it only appears 'spiritual' and terrifying from our perspective; probably because it kills us and eats us.
Did you check out my thread?

The wa ive obseved Jews serve G-d, does not at all jibe with this gnostic idea of a archon that siphons life force.

Well, just as a thought experiment try imagining that the 'Gnostics' were correct. Scary, huh?

There is also the quotes from Jesus confronting the Pharisees; that is pretty intriguing as well, it's in John.

reply to post by dontreally


You are an interesting person and I like the way that you think. You are very well informed and I do not think you are going to get any help from any of us here at ATS; at least not in understanding this stuff. You already know the material well enough to have your own mind on all of this.

I see that you are very enamored of Judaism and I think that is great.

Cultures like Egypt that seem to us to be focused on death fascinate me as well. I have come to the conclusion that there is a really good reason for it and that that really good reason may no longer hold sway in our time for some reason. I am not sure if the problem is that we forgot why we need to be concerned or we just plain no longer need to be concerned.

I am going to link you to another of my threads that will elaborate a little on this if you are interested.

I am linking you to this in the most friendly way possible and I hope you will check them out; I am proud of the threads and the ideas that were generated on them.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So you are right there dealing with the really big questions and I commend you for it.

Ciao

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

They simply 'saw' just what Yahwe and the Archons were - imposters, parasites and predators. as in fact anyone with an ounce of commonsense should really be able to tell just from their ridiculous utterances and commands!

Thats something an ignoramus would consider common sense.

First learn the Torah, PROPERLY, ie; according to traditional exegesis, with OBJECTIVITY, as i have done myself with Gnosticism, and then tell me, how objective and fair the gnostic conception of Judaism is.

I dont deny that there are shells, or 'archons', which cloud our perception of the one God.

I just completely disagree with the ludicrous conception of the subject by gnosticism, primarely because they have distorted the kabbalistic exgesis of the names of God.

For instance, everything in the Hebrew language is metaphysical. The word יהוה‎ , or "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", to English speakers, is a profoundly deep concept.

In this word are the words יהו ,הוה ,היה was, is, and will be. The very nature of this name is "being", or "eternity".

What can possibly be beyond this conception for the human mind, inherently limited as it is??? This is an archon?

Additionally, again, if you know anything about Biblical exegesis, wherever this name appears in the Torah, it appears as a name of Mercy, of a personal connection, or of a transcending of opposites; and so this name initself contains within it all the levels of reality. Its very essence is paradox.

When Abraham resolves within himself the archetype of severity (symbolized by his sacrificing Isaac; Isaac being a name of severity, or contraction "the fear of Isaac" gen 31:42) he takes ON the mode of his son; what he actually sacrifices is his own chesed, or archetypal expansion, and so this is why Isaac, his son says to Abraham "father", and Abraham replies "henini" which can be translated as "here i am". Ie; I am where YOU ARE, whereas you are where i am (in a state of passivity).

When God tells Abraham to sacrfiice his son, it is the angel of ELOHIM which bids him. Only Elohim, ie; the appearances of this world, which resonates much better with the gnostic demiurge, demands Abraham to sacrifice his son. From his limited perspective, the evils of this world are necessary, and so Abraham tells Isaac, "God will provide the lamb" ie; i am passive, i dont have to change my ways. The lamb, is the individual self (and so the ram, the first sign of the zodiac, is seen as symbol for this).

Only after Isaac and Abraham have reversed roles, ie; Chesed has become interincluded within Gevurah (this being a subject of the lurianic "tikkun", or rectification of reality), does the malak YHVH call out to Abraham "Abraham, Abraham". Two times, Abraham, because both parts of himself are being called; the divine soul, or the part of the self which seeks union with his source, and the stubborn ego/animal soul; both are called, because BOTH are involved in the service of God....

Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place, Adonai Yireh. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain, the LORD will be seen

The ram caught in a thicket by its horns is an obvious reference to the individual self. He takes THIS - the self, and sacrifices it to God. By doing so, the result is YHVH will be seen.

One pierces through the very heavens, the very screen of the name Elohim - which has the same gematria as HaTeva - Nature, and sees the name moving it all; YHVH.

The gnostics perverted this remarkably deep and beautiful doctrine with their vapid pagan nihilism.

Because the self is being sacrificed; because ones own life and being is being given over, back to the God who gave it, Gnostics consider this to be the greatest of all evils.

And yet i cannot see this as being evil, at all. Who but G-d deserves our respect and reverence? Who but G-d is WORTHY of our submission? What else is of importance? Submission is a crucial part of service towards G-d. It sacrifices the very stubborness; the horns of the ram caught in the thicket, in the soul.

In practical terms, this means we should respect, and obey the laws of G-d, as determined by human reason; ie, dont murder, dont steal, dont slander other people, dont harm nature, dont be sexually depraved, etc. Basic ideas which keep us in line with the divine will.

From another perspective, who says what the gnostics say is true? Who said "yahweh" is a deluded archon? They must have recieved this through prophecy, no? Well, the Jews too recieved prophecy. Its either theirs is true, or the gnostics is true. Either way, one party is being deluded. Or perhaps both are deluded, or both are not deluded.

Objectively, it seems to me that the Gnostics are the ones doing the slandering, the murdering (assuming, of course, that the pagan elites, noble houses, from ancient times, till today, have been closet gnostics) and the stealing, both of Judaism - ie the Hebrew Scriptures or "old testament", the identity of Israel (catholics are now the new israel. this being 'replacement theology'), and of course, the land of Israel (the modern philistines, the palestinians)...

We live in corrupt times, and the corrupt gnostics are still in control, despite their efforts to frame the Jew as the culprit.

You have the answer in the quote above. I am reading the Gnostic library right now and you are spot on. Comparing this to my study of Kaballah, you are deriving the answer. Gnostics still valued the one true God over all, despite their wanderings deep into the esoteric wilderness. No matter the delusion we are under while behind the veil, God is God. By noticing that the veil is torn, we can see around what is on this side of the veil to understand what is beyond.

God is the narrow path between the tear in the veil. It's not exoteric and it's not esoteric. The path is between. The rock (Peter / Church) must be rolled away. We must rise to new life from the baptism of the material world. We must be the ones to pull the veil back and reveal the love of God on the other side of our own creations of chaos.

Ultimately, this life is the whole truth and all degrees of infinity. This includes evil. We must rightly divide the light from the darkness by God's example. Each human has the opportunity to walk the path of Israel in the wilderness. We live in a tent (body) by the leading of the Good Shepherd (God).

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

 

They simply 'saw' just what Yahwe and the Archons were - imposters, parasites and predators. as in fact anyone with an ounce of commonsense should really be able to tell just from their ridiculous utterances and commands!

Thats something an ignoramus would consider common sense.

reply to post by Frater210

know what I mean? Trying to put the Gnostics into context with Judeo Christianity by using these texts as a measuring rule seems a little misguided to me. I mean no offense; I just am amazed, myself, when folks try to understand 'Gnosticism' from this angle.

Well, when you use another group as your arch-satan, then i think its important to know what that other group ACTUALLY believes.

Imagine how incredibly annoying it is for someone who actually understands biblical exegesis, to here a pseudo-gnostic or occultist preach "the jewish God is a deluded archon".

Not actually - just in his myopic world, is the Jewish God a deluded archon.

If he were courageous enough to test his own arbitary beliefs and philosophy, he could probably come to a different perception.

Idolatry, which the bible admonishes man not to do, means just this. Dont worship your own beliefs; your own assumptions. Free yourself from their burden. Look, and see what else exists.

I have done that myself. I am not 'fixed' into thinking that only Judaism is true, since even Judaism teaches, suprisingly enough, that all religions have validity, except those religions that teach immoraity ie; sexual corruption, theft, murder, slander, manipulating others (ie; sorcery) the end justifies the means etc.

Judaism concerns, are also my concerns; because unlike most religions, Judaims is focused on morality, and not on gaining adherents. This in itself explains why the Talmud - the main text of Rabbinical Judaism, says, in the Jerusalem Talmud

"With justice and an abundance of kindness, He does not deal harshly." G-d does not withhold reward from gentiles who perform His commandments."

And in the Babylonian Talmud, it says:

"Righteous gentiles have a place in the world to come"

Unlike in Orthodox Christianity and Islam, only a Christian and Muslim can go to heaven. There are no teachings that say otherwise. Even modern Christians and Muslims think this; if i dont become a Christian, im destined for hell. If i dont become a Muslim, the fires of hell will eat me up. Judaism says, if you live a righteous life, if youre a good person, you build for yourself a heavenly afterlife. Thats basic logic, and thats what Judaism has always taught.

Apparently, this religion at least, is not as politically obsessed as those two great ones - christianity and Islam.

Say what you will about the Talmud; these beliefs form the basis of the Jews attitude towards non-Jews. If a person is Good to others, than thats all that matters.

Why would 'Elohim' not jibe with the 'Gnostics? Elohim is at least plural. Sophia had to emanate from someplace; and the demiurge emanated from 'Her'; plural. Maybe for some reasons the Jews don't see Sophia's accident as an accident.

Elohim does jibe with the concept of the demiurge.

But than again, the concept of the demiurge has such negative tinges to it, that i wouldnt want to attach any name of G-d to that concept.

I see that you are very enamored of Judaism and I think that is great.

I just see Judaism as a good religion. Very moral, very reasonable.

Whereas conversely, i find Gnosticism good in some areas, but in other areas, not so good.

Im particularly interested in Zen Buddhism and am currently practicing it. I also got an interest in Hinduism, Sufism, and ancient Mythology - Babylonian, Egyptian, Druidic, aswell as Jungian psychology, comparitive mythology.

Im all around fascinated by the metaphysical side of things; in religion, and its inner meaning and purpose.

This also crosses over with my exoteric studies; politics. I see how this gnostic spirit has animated not only ancient secret socieites, but also the campaigns of the Romans, its renaming of Judea, "palestine", after the Hebrews biblical nemesis, the philistines, and later on the Catholic Church.

I understand something other people dont. The world is divided into two main camps; the "nations" and the "Jews". Ideologically, the divide is deeper than any divide between any other people. Tge Greeks have a great deal more in common, with Hindus, and Taoists, then they do wth Hebrews.

Paganism and Judaism are ideologically worlds apart, even though both these worlds interacted, and shared with each other, Judaism remains entirely focused on the divine unity, which to a greek would have been Zeus, or a Babylonian, Marduk. To them, since they are moral relativists, the God of the Jews is just another power in the chain of causation.

Im not saying pagans are obscenely immoral people, because that isnt true. What im saying is, paganism, generally speaking, is mistakened with regard to the place the creator God, whether you call him Dyeus, Zeus, or the latin Deus, has in relation to the world He created.

The reason why this is, is because a created being cannot look back before it was created. Its a conflict of terms. You cant see the world before it was formed WITHOUT looking at that world THROUGH this screen of this world. We are thus, tricking ourselves, when we think we are gods, or that the name YHVH isnt completely at one with the Ein Soph. This is what the Talmud means when it describes the myth of the 4 who entered paradise. Rabbi Akiba, the one who came out in peace, told the rest, when you see the crystal palace, dont say "water water", ie; dont interpret this as being different from the revelation of God in the lower world; they are the same thing, percieved at two different levels.

reply to post by dontreally


Very interesting, but I'm curious as to how you've come to reject the notion that the tree of life manifested itself, fully realized, through the Jewish kabbalistic mystical tradition, in the form of a human being as G-d embodied and the principal personified. Are you familiar with the deeper, esoteric meaning of the name Yeshua (look into it)?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

God is the narrow path between the tear in the veil. It's not exoteric and it's not esoteric. The path is between. The rock (Peter / Church) must be rolled away. We must rise to new life from the baptism of the material world. We must be the ones to pull the veil back and reveal the love of God on the other side of our own creations of chaos.

Nicely said.

Ultimately, this life is the whole truth and all degrees of infinity. This includes evil. We must rightly divide the light from the darkness by God's example. Each human has the opportunity to walk the path of Israel in the wilderness. We live in a tent (body) by the leading of the Good Shepherd (God).

Evil exists to be negated; thats its ultimate purpose.

Evil exists, and no understanding person can deny that it exists. The issue is, what shall we make of it? The gnostic solution is a radical one. Any libertine, 'do what thou wilt' philosopy is unstable. One CANNOT live, and follow the philosopy of an aliester crowley, for instance, without ending up just like him.

Perhaps theres a lesson to be learned, from the Nietzsches, Crowleys, and those other radical thinkers.

This is why the Torah stresses so often, the separation between Israel and the lands beyond it (which in future times, will become 'pure' and so integrated within israel). We need to understand the boundaries between permissible and impermissible. Theres an exact path, or a narrow strait, in which we are to tread. Meaning; theres an exact response to every situation, and every circumstance. To handle this in the context of your relationship with the divine, is to sublimate that reality, and include it within the boundaries of Israel.

But be careful. This is not to say, homosexuality can be 'purified'. Things which are explicitly forbidden by the Torah ie; murder, theft, homosexuality have an unquivocally destructive effect on spiritual reality. You will become lowered, and likewise the divine presence, when you engage in that behavior; even if it is out of a sense of 'divine service'.

Other than that, this society is so completely removed from this lofty perception of reality.

We are moving towards greater nihilism, relativism, and 'do what thou wilt'ness, albeit, within a stabalized order.

I was just watching Entertainment tonight (the TV was on, and i just happened to see it. I would never watch that garbage for entertainment) and Will Smith, who often talks about his fascination with Alchemy, and is rumored to be interested in scientology, was saying that he and his wife have an 'agreement' and an understanding,. He never elucidated on what that nderstandng was, but undoubtedly he was talking about an open relationship. This is something they can both agree with, indulge in, and do it with a sense of "oh, we have a higher understanding". Jada pinket, his wife, than explains that her and will understand that deficiency is APART of the totality of the human experience, meaning, mans inherent need to have sex with multiple partners, makes their marriage a 'true marriage'.

This to me is an example of a corruption.

They look at self discipline, and self control, with contempt. Anything that is hard, and inconvenient for the personal ego, is looked at as negative.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Very interesting, but I'm curious as to how you've come to reject the notion that the tree of life manifested itself, fully realized, through the Jewish kabbalistic mystical tradition, in the form of a human being as G-d embodied and the principal personified. Are you familiar with the deeper, esoteric meaning of the name Yeshua (look into it)?

My issue with this idea is its vagueness.

What does it mean??

Yes, I know what Yeshua means in Hebrew

Also, all humans are already made in the form of the 'tree of life'




Both physically, as above, and spiritually. Keter is manifest as pleasure and desire (the form is called Atik Yomin, the ancient of days, whereas the latter is arich anpin, the long face) Hokmah as a wholistic consciousess, intuition, Binah as Cognition, the six lower sefiroth as the array of emotional experiences, and Malkuth as the physical vitality which permeates the body.
.
So, what does this mean, practically. Is this the worship of the universal man, as the gnostics and manicheans were prone to do?

reply to post by dontreally


The kabalah is an overly complicated tortuous mess that is simply unecessary - commonsense says that Yahwe 'I am, that I am' was an Archon with a taste for animal sacrifices and burnt offerings and not the supreme intelligence of the universe.

Judaism was some sort of project of Yahwe - to control this particular group of people - just as Islam is another project by some sort of rebel/competitor Archon group ie Satan/Iblis

Our real destiny lies with Sophia/Gaia and the 'correction' effected by her Aeon counterpart Christos - the suscebtibility to Archonic influence is something that humankind must overcome!

reply to post by dontreally


It certainly is suggestive of a universal Godman in potential, as something to be realized in time and history, I'm just curious as to why you think that Yeshua (Jesus) doesn't qualify as the embodiment of the tree of life fully realized / made manifest in Judaism even if only as a model of authentic leadership or "kingship".?

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


Let us not forget that the Christos emerged from that framework and that salvation came from the Jews...

reply to post by dontreally


Well said. There is a simple fact that we can all verify by experience and observation. Stealing reward leads to suffering. This suffering doesn't end because taking creates momentum toward suffering for us and others. On the other side, suffering work leads to reward. This reward keeps giving back and extends to others around us. Smoke and you get cancer. This is taking reward leading to suffering. If we work at a job, we not only benefit ourselves, but also our families.

Our current world takes reward from what is tied (asur) by God. This will always lead to suffering because God restricted what we took to being obtained by work and effort of natural law. Those who live peaceful lives, on average, will humbly work for the reward that God unties (mutar). We reap what we sow. Reaping what we have not sown is idol worship of self and represents the 'impure shell' of choice and thought. Here is an article from my blog on the topic. LINK

Good thoughts. Thank you for sharing.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


You dont know a thing about the Kabbalah, or that repititive mention of yours of "i am that i am".

That again, is a different name of God. Elohim, El Shaddai, YHVH, Yah, Ehyeh asher Ehyeh - these are DIFFERENT names, at different LEVELS of the one God. They are as much valid as the Ein Soph. Logically, they cannot all be the demiurge, because they all signify different aspects of reality.

Elohim, as ive stressed many times in this thread, is the name of contraction ie judgement, creation. Any aspect of contraction, occurs throught this name.

El Shaddai, translated often as almighty, refers to Gods infinite ability to provide for his creation. Shaddai, is from the word 'dai' - enough. And the Shin, which is often used as a transitive verb, and El, which means power (or god, since anything with power can be called a god) completes the idea. It is the almighty', or that ability of God to give each creature its proper portion. In kabbalistic shema, it is associated with Yesod, and in gematria, this word, El Shaddai, has the same numerical value as Metatron - the highest power between the infinite realm and the created realm.

YHVH, as ive explained already, is the essential name. It is the name of God relevant to this world. Look above for an explication.

Yah, refers to Gods ability as artificer of reality. It is the Divine WISDOM responsible for the world. It is this wisdom, which David extols most often in the Psalms ie, HalleluYaH, Praise God". One when he prays through the psalms is seeking to connect with he wisdom of God, which is called YaH. This name is a Yod and a Heh, which is Hokmah and Binah - the intellectual aspect of creation.

And Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, which you call "i am that i am", but grammatically, it actually doesnt mean that at all, but rather "i will be that which i will be", relates to the sephira of Keter, and at a lower level, Binah.

From innerpedia (a kabbalistic wikipedia website. You should look here if you want to learn something about actual kabbalah www.innerpedia.org...

The literal meaning of "Ehyeh"-"I shall be"-implies new birth or revelation of self. In context of the verse in which it appears, Ehyeh suggests that the essence of God's own Self will be born, as it were, into reality with the spiritual birth of humanity through their redemption from exile. This of course leads to the understanding of the land of Egypt as the spiritual womb of the Jewish people. God's becoming in reality is thus linked intrinsically with the becoming of the Children of Israel into a nation.

And btw, Kabbalah is nowhere near as convoluted as your making it out to be. Who have you been studying? If its been Ashlag Kabbalah, id agree, it is unecessarily convoluted. Otherwise, kabbalah is fairly simple and straightforward.

Afterall, all science is hard, and Kabbalah is the Metaphysical science par excellence.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Judaism, unlike pagan religions, is focused almost entirely on this world; that is, OBJECTIVE reality. This is why it is so involved with moral laws and strictures. And alse why our relationship with G-d, as taught by Judaism, is a personal one, as if i were talking to you, is how a Jew is taught to connect with the almighty.

This lower world, is fundamentally different from the higher worlds. The higher worlds are subjective; involving abstract realities. This world on the other hand, is different. It is much more complicated, and much more real, in a certain sense ( in terms of perception, this world is very real)

The messiah was also expected to be a political figure, as taught by contemporary Judaism and Talmudic Judaism - ie; when Yeshua lived.

That might have been a reason why he was rejected. Any figure who fails to correct THIS world, on a POLITICAL and social level, is not the moshiach of God.

To cement this point. Cyrus, king of the Medes and Persians, is called by the Bible "moshiach", because of his service to God, by providing the means to build the 2nd temple.. Thus designating this term as a human being who does Gods will ON EARTH. ON EARTH. That is the big key, and the only thing relevant.

Judaism, a religion concerned with this world, expects a Moshiach who will inspire men to serve the one God in THIS WORLD.

Yeshua, undoubtedly was a tremendous man, and a great Jew, but he could not have been Moshiach, otherwise this world would have been fixed. 2000 years too late. This world we live in has actually gotten much worse since he has appeared in the world.