Through the eyes of Atheism

reply to post by Qouth The Raven


Thank you very much.




reply to post by randyvs

Alright, I actually understood most of that believe it or not.

Excellent!

Just one thing perhaps you can rephrase for me the part after "Sigh".

Hmmm.. let's see...

ErtaiNaGia:
*sigh*

randyvs:
Atheism limits this existance to things it finds rational. But is that even rational ?

ErtaiNaGia:
No, it doesn't...

I just can't... I can't imagine.... why you would even THINK this... Are you thinking?

Is this all just feelings? Some sort of emotional outpouring?

Atheism is neither Rational, Nor Irrational, because it is a belief based upon no evidence whatsoever.... same with Theism.

Ra·tion·al: Adjective
1. Based on or in accordance with reason or logic
2. (of a person) Able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically
3. Endowed with the capacity to reason

Logic: Noun
1. Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity
2. A particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference

These are not RATIONAL beliefs, nor are they IRRATIONAL, because there is no evidence, nor observation in the real world to either confirm nor deny their "Correctness" or "Truth"

If you believed in something when there is proof for it, that is Rational.

If you believe in something DESPITE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY, then that is Irrational.

Since we have no Objective evidence of the correctness of either proposition (God or No God) there is no way to confirm the Rationality or irrationality of either decision.

Logic is a system of validating Correctness... and it only applies to a Specific set of phenomenon...

Those which are observable, verifiable, testable, etcetera...

Logic relies on something having a verifiable Existence.

Since the Concept of God is necessarily Metaphysical, then Logic and Rational cannot be used to verify, falsify, or judge any particular religious belief or lack of belief.

Oh, sure... maybe there are some SPECIFIC things said in X scripture or Y scripture that we know for a fact cannot be true....

But the core, underlying assumptions of Theism(God's Existence), or a Atheism(Gods Non-Existence) are not within the realms of Logic or Reason....

That is not to say that they are Irrational, or Unreasonable... it's just to say that they are.....

Beyond the Jurisdiction......... of Logic and Rational.

Atheism is just a belief system... or a lack of a belief system.... It's not scientific... because it deals with belief, not observation.

(There... was that what you were referring to?)

I have no idea where I said," science is atheism ". Or even what provoked your big bombastic rant

....

randyvs
Basically, it seems as though atheism, takes the rules of empirical science to far and applies them to life.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There.

The one thing I did say, was that atheism, seems to carry the rules/protocols, of empirical science a bit to far to apply it to life. ie the belief in observable phenomena.

Atheism does not do this, because atheism is a belief in the non existence of god, OR the non belief in the existance of god.

Atheism is an abstract concept, it can't have wants, or needs, or desires.

The implicit statement of the sentence that I quoted from your OP, was that SCIENCE *BELIEVES* that god does not exist., and that Atheists are using SCIENCE as a weapon against God.... or Theism.

and this is not the case.

The only thing I can figure is you might be lookiing for my other thread. Science fails to exclude God. Would you like a link for that ?

THAT WAS YOU?!?!?!!??!!111

One other thing, light is an attribute of God the way I see it. You are an attribute of God.

I am a Theist, actually, and while I share that specific belief (above)... I can in no way prove it.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


You left a part out. You know, the part where you introduce me to to your highly rational thoughts on existence and how life came to be. All you've done, is basically tell me that people who believe in God, can't think clearly.
That's just an opinion.

I think light is the key to proving it.


I do not believe in the non existence of God. What am I ?

reply to post by randyvs

You left a part out. You know, the part where you introduce me to to your highly rational thoughts on existence and how life came to be.

That part was never under discussion, and was never actually brought up until you just did; In addition to having no actual relevance to the topic at hand, your sentance is a logical fallacy known as "Moving the Goalpost"

You are STILL trying to prove the existence of God, using LOGIC that only works on OBSERVABLE PHENOMENON.

I don't really know how to explain this to you in simpler terms...

All you've done, is basically tell me that people who believe in God, can't think clearly.

You must have missed the part of my previous post where I tell you that I am a Theist.

So... are you suggesting that I am stating that *I* cannot think clearly?

Because that is what your post is implying.

reply to post by randyvs

I do not believe in the non existence of God. What am I ?

*sigh*

Grasping at straws.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


Time out on the field.

I did see you are a theist. I am in no way trying to prove God exists. I know better than that. Just because I say something like, "I think light is the key to proving it". Dosn't mean I'm trying to prove it right here right now.

Go.

Originally posted by randyvs Doesn't man suddenly become far less, than what he has over millennia, come to believe himself to be ?

Less?

Absolutely not.

What we have accomplished as a species, and what we have accomplished as individuals, we have accomplished in the complete absence of gods giving us a helping hand.

That makes mankind far more, if anything.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


Just like antiunicornism For those irrational people who dont believe in unicorns.... because the belief or lack of belief in unicorns is irrational because we cant PROVE that unicorns never existed, or dont still exist today in an alternate universe which they colonized.

reply to post by randyvs

Time out on the field. Don't post anything until I finish here ok. Puder problems got me all jacked for a few so wait til I say go k?

lol

Fair enough... whenever you are ready....................

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


Time out on the field.

I did see you are a theist. I am in no way trying to prove God exists. I know better than that. Just because I say something like, "I think light is the key to proving it". Dosn't mean I'm trying to prove it right here right now.


I apologise,
Go.

reply to post by randyvs

I did see you are a theist.

Ya, I figured you posted your reply before I did.

I am in no way trying to prove God exists. I know better than that. Just because I say something like, "I think light is the key to proving it". Dosn't mean I'm trying to prove it right here right now.

No, I was referring to something different.... when you asked me to state my beliefs about the Existence of reality, and the beginnings of life, you are implying that God is the only rational answer to such questions.

And I have already showed you why this is not the case... because Logic and Rational are incompatible with something that we cannot observe or validate.

Whether Reality was "Spoken" into existence by God, in that he said "Let there be light" and then the big bang happened, or if it was a quantum fluctuation of space or something like that...

Both of them happened OUTSIDE of the universe, or Time, and thus anything posited to explain such an occurrence is outside the boundaries of logic or rational.

Now, Science can INFER a great deal about these phenomenon... but they necessarily exist outside of human experience, and thus are not within the category of logic or rational.

Therefore, HOW the universe began is a moot point in a discussion about the concept of whether or not Theism and Atheism are logical or Illogical.

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by randyvs

I did see you are a theist.

Ya, I figured you posted your reply before I did.

I am in no way trying to prove God exists. I know better than that. Just because I say something like, "I think light is the key to proving it". Dosn't mean I'm trying to prove it right here right now.

You said
[No, I was referring to something different.... when you asked me to state my beliefs about the Existence of reality, and the beginnings of life, you are implying that God is the only rational answer to such questions.]

What I meant to imply was that there isn't one explaination to existance that is rational. There isn't one single explanation that isn't beyond belief. But belief in a designer/creator is a lot more logical than the universe just farting itself into existance.

reply to post by randyvs

What I meant to imply was that there isn't one explaination to existance that is rational.

But belief in a designer/creator is a lot more logical than the universe just farting itself into existance.

Awww... you ALMOST had it....

Let's try again.


Logic: Noun

1. Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity
2. A particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference

So, when you state that "...belief in a designer/creator is a lot more logical than the universe just farting itself into existance." you are actually implying that you have proof that God Created the Universe.

Which you Don't.

reply to post by randyvs


What if I told you that ALL of the various deities who have attracted followers or adherents on this planet, at one time or another were constructs designed to enrich and empower a controller-class of human beings who -- in one form or another -- have always ruled over the rest of the throng of "common humanity?" None of the gods are real. Rather -- they are reactive control mechanism's, designed to keep you locked inside a permanent state of ultra suggestibility.

Consciousness (souls, ghosts, whatever) is a function of the higher math of the multiverse, folded through a fourth dimensional representation of time and space in a three dimensional, physical, carbon-based body. Other aspects of this same "consciousness" exist as lifeforms completely alien to your present sensory apparatus and level of awareness. There are aspects of this "higher dimensional mathematics" surfing the solar wind of the corona's of certain stars. Others work to slow their awareness until they become near solid. The entire span of human history is but a moment to their kind.

When you "die," your body will return to the soil and become one with the life and water cycle of this planet. What you call your "soul" will fly unbound, and roam freely through five dimensional space, where the distance between things is less nebulous or absolute. You may fill yourself up with the love you experienced in this life, until your "body" becomes the stuff of new stars, and new galaxies, or you may fold your "sense of self" back down through lower matter, until you are "born again" as part of the lifecycle of another kind of being, on a distant planet, in another part of the galaxy (or even another galaxy altogether!).

You may suddenly realize you have been playing this game for so many Aeons that you have grown weary of it all, and focus all you have learned and experienced through a single point of space / time until you BANG another (new!) universe, bubbled off from the one we all share. From there you would sleep blissfully, and your dreams would determine the laws of that universe, and eventually -- all "consciousness" that dwelt within it.

You might believe any or all of that, but so long as you believed that the "gods" were constructs, designed by men to keep other men under control, you would still be an "atheist."

It's a great big multiverse, brother. Don't look down.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia


Well, by inference, whoever or whatever created it was pretty darn smart, and generous,.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Well, by inference, whoever or whatever created it was pretty darn smart, and generous,.

Only if Who/What ever created the universe possessed conciousness.

If the universe is merely a random fluke of quantum mechanical energies, then the terms smart and generous do not apply.

Originally posted by randyvs
I just think it's important to know, what we're looking at, if atheism is correct ? If I look at the world through the eyes of atheism ? Doesn't man suddenly become far less, than what he has over millennia, come to believe himself to be ?

What does man believe himself to be? Because if you ask 10 people you'll get 10 quite different answers. Contemplating whether any member of the group is right in their beliefs doesn't really change the group, but it might change your perception of it.

Originally posted by fenceSitter
If you taken Christianity for example, and how God made us in his image, and also the fact the universe is of unimaginable size, then either there is no other life out there (which would suck IMO) or all other species look just like us (which I doubt). Things such as this makes me lean towards atheism.

The Bible is silent on whether or not there are ET lifeforms, and silence does not imply anything one way or the other about the subject. You'll find that most Christians do believe that there are ETs out there. Even the Catholic Church is on record as saying that the possibility of life out there is quite good. As for what they look like, well the Bible says that we were made in God's "image", but no one really knows what that means. Physical image? Spiritual? Something else? There's nothing scriptural that would limit ETs to looking like us.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
Atheism is not a religion.

But what is your definition of "religion"? Because all of the reasons that you might suggest for ruling atheism out as a religion would also apply to Christianity not being a religion (and in my opinion it isn't). It's easy to look at mainstream religions and get everyone to agree that they are indeed "religion", but when it comes to atheism and Christianity the answer is not so obvious. They either both are or both are not.

reply to post by SavedOne

But what is your definition of "religion"? Because all of the reasons that you might suggest for ruling atheism out as a religion would also apply to Christianity not being a religion (and in my opinion it isn't). It's easy to look at mainstream religions and get everyone to agree that they are indeed "religion", but when it comes to atheism and Christianity the answer is not so obvious. They either both are or both are not.

Religion: Noun
1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods
2. Details of belief as taught or discussed
3. A particular system of faith and worship

Atheism has no dogma, Scripture, or details; It is not a system of worship.

Religion refers not to the actual belief, or non-belief.. but to the traditions and systems that surround that Belief.

And since Atheism holds no traditions, or worship, it cannot be classified as a "Religion".

Atheism is the Belief in the Truth of a single proposition, that "No Gods Exist."


One can be a Non-Religious Theist...

or... oddly enough... one can be a Religious Atheist..... (One would have to invent their systems of religion from scratch....)

But Atheism merely refers to the Non-Belief in Deities.

In the same way that Theist, and Christian are not the same thing.

Because Theism only refers to the BELIEF in a God.... whereas "Christian" refers to the system of belief in a specific FORM of Deity Worship, a Specifically named Deity, Specific Miracles, Observations, Holidays, etcetera...


To give some better examples....

All Christians are Theists (They believe in the existence of a god)

But not all Theists are Christians.

Islam is a Theistic religion.

As is Zoroastrianism.

In contrast, some forms of Shamanism, or Animism are Atheistic Religions, in that they have no belief in a GOD or Gods, and yet have religious practices.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

The Law of Conservation of Energy which states that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed.

This is a kindergarten formulation of the first law of thermodynamics. It does not prevent mass-energy from being created or destroyed within a closed system as long as the total energy added to or subtracted from the system is zero.

Within the universe, something is forever coming out of nothing. And vanishing into nothing again.

I think you are confusing the nature of 'atheism' most people in this day and age that recognise religion for what it is, i.e. childish superstition and a waste of time and energy dont always dismiss outright all things paranormal and out of the ordinary.

An intelligent person is not usually so arrogant as to assume we know everything about how the universe works.

The common theme amongst all these atheist bashing threads seem to be religious people acting all high and mighty with the attitude they have it all figured out and we are the stupid ones for not blindly beleiving in an omnipotent supernatural entity based on zero scientific evidence and nothing more than ghost stories drummed into our heads as children.

It's not that religious folk dont think clearly. They just dont think at all.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
reply to post by randyvs

 

...o'my gosh, randy...

...how many times are you going to beat this particular horse?... you've been told a thousand times (at least) that atheism is just a lack of belief in deities... anything else added to that is not atheism - its something else...

It is kind of shocking he had the audacity to start another thread like this.

All has been said/explained in previous threads. I miss Madness.