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The way free will is seen in todays world

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posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 





...but have the philosophical community been waiting...of thier own FREE WILL? Ridiculous arguments


Ridiculous, but fascinating. Mind-bending stuff like this is like a drug to me.




posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by backwardluminary
reply to post by akushla99
 





...but have the philosophical community been waiting...of thier own FREE WILL? Ridiculous arguments


Ridiculous, but fascinating. Mind-bending stuff like this is like a drug to me.


I agree!
Akushla



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by Ralphy
 


I do not believe that freewill exists. And whether consciousness arises in the brain or on some higher plane has no bearing on this question......

Now say you make a decision say whether to have marmalade on toast for breakfast or a bowl of cereal. That decision is based on a number of factors – how much time you have in the morning, how you feel at the time, how hungry you are etc etc. And you decide that morning to marmalade on toast. You eat your breakfast and go on with your day. 3 hours later you somehow step into a time warp which transports you back in time to the exact position you were in 3 hours prior (i.e. into your kitchen trying to decide what to have for breakfast) and also completely wipes your memory of the last 3 hours.

Now, if the circumstances at the time, your emotional state, your prior experiences and the general environment were all identical you will always choose to have marmalade on toast for breakfast on that particular morning.

Given any situationyou will and can only ever make the one choice. Now this in no way abrogates responsibility form the decision maker, for one still has to make that choice/decision, and suffer the consequences for that decision be they good or bad.

I personally always spread my marmalade on the lighter side of the toast, leaving the browner side facing downwards. This choice, this preference one could argue has been the sum total of all my thoughts and emotions leading to up to that sunny Wednesday morning when I woke up deciding to have marmalade and toast for breakfast. These thoughts in turn are a result of my genetics, and my experiences through life filtered through the mind that these genetics and experiences have created.

Now I'm not saying I am doomed to forever spread my marmalade on the lighter side of the toast, but until some trigger comes along to make me re-evaluate this choice, this will be my preference.

I have made the choice, the decision to spread the marmalade on the lighter side of the toast..... And my argument is that given the circumstances, my emotional state, my prior experiences, my thoughts and the general environment at the kitchen table that morning I would always make that same decision.

As mentioned in an old thread I just found from 2008 on a similar topic.

Remember in Matrix Reloaded when Neo talks to the Oracle....

"You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You came here to understand WHY you made the choice...."



Relevant part starts after 2:00 minutes



posted on Sep, 1 2011 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by 1littlewolf
reply to post by Ralphy
 


I do not believe that freewill exists. And whether consciousness arises in the brain or on some higher plane has no bearing on this question......

Now say you make a decision say whether to have marmalade on toast for breakfast or a bowl of cereal. That decision is based on a number of factors – how much time you have in the morning, how you feel at the time, how hungry you are etc etc. And you decide that morning to marmalade on toast. You eat your breakfast and go on with your day. 3 hours later you somehow step into a time warp which transports you back in time to the exact position you were in 3 hours prior (i.e. into your kitchen trying to decide what to have for breakfast) and also completely wipes your memory of the last 3 hours.

Now, if the circumstances at the time, your emotional state, your prior experiences and the general environment were all identical you will always choose to have marmalade on toast for breakfast on that particular morning.

Given any situationyou will and can only ever make the one choice. Now this in no way abrogates responsibility form the decision maker, for one still has to make that choice/decision, and suffer the consequences for that decision be they good or bad.

I personally always spread my marmalade on the lighter side of the toast, leaving the browner side facing downwards. This choice, this preference one could argue has been the sum total of all my thoughts and emotions leading to up to that sunny Wednesday morning when I woke up deciding to have marmalade and toast for breakfast. These thoughts in turn are a result of my genetics, and my experiences through life filtered through the mind that these genetics and experiences have created.

Now I'm not saying I am doomed to forever spread my marmalade on the lighter side of the toast, but until some trigger comes along to make me re-evaluate this choice, this will be my preference.

I have made the choice, the decision to spread the marmalade on the lighter side of the toast..... And my argument is that given the circumstances, my emotional state, my prior experiences, my thoughts and the general environment at the kitchen table that morning I would always make that same decision.

As mentioned in an old thread I just found from 2008 on a similar topic.

Remember in Matrix Reloaded when Neo talks to the Oracle....

"You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You came here to understand WHY you made the choice...."



Relevant part starts after 2:00 minutes


...whole point of FREE WILL, which you would like to childishly maintain does not exist, is, there was a choice! You may not remember the choice...like you do not remember being born!

...and so we spend our lives, arguing the pro's and con's of FREE WILL / NON-FREE WILL...
Question: is anyone, in any way, being compelled to ponder this?

If the answer is NO...then, what do you call what you are doing?

The negation of FREE WILL is a blatant abrogation of responsibility for your own actions!

Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 01:05 AM
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...whole point of FREE WILL, which you would like to childishly maintain does not exist, is, there was a choice! You may not remember the choice...like you do not remember being born!

...and so we spend our lives, arguing the pro's and con's of FREE WILL / NON-FREE WILL...
Question: is anyone, in any way, being compelled to ponder this?

If the answer is NO...then, what do you call what you are doing?

The negation of FREE WILL is a blatant abrogation of responsibility for your own actions!

Akushla


I was hoping you'd appear on this thread
You never did give me a satisfactory response to my randomness and freewill thread. I just figured you'd been blinded by logic and given up. And here you are.....and yet still no satisfactory response....

Whether you ponder this or not does not in any way mean you have any freewill in the eqation. I ponder this cos it is an interesting topic, and it is interesting to me as my brain has been programmed through its hardware (genetics) and software (prior experience). I also ponder this as my job is currently boring as batsh*t and things are kinda slow (external environment)

*Please firstly read my answer, which is I admit near identical to the answers I gave to you. There you will see I in no way say that the fact that freewill is an illusion stops you from making choices, nor does it stop you from dealing with the consequences of those choices. It is the mechanics behind why you make that choice which is what I'm getting at. Also there you will find a great example of how freewill does not apply which you conveniently choose to ignore (or not read at all).

*Next, please give an example of any choice you make that is not a direct response to the circumstance you find yourself in and the programming you have in your brain (which is based on genetics and prior experience).

In other words give me an example of any decision you've ever made which is based on pure freewill. Note this will be a decision which is not a response to your external environment, and has nothing to do with your brains programming.

This is how you win arguments, Not by calling someone names or dismissing statements off hand with no counter arguments.

edit on 2/9/2011 by 1littlewolf because: dodgy spelling



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by 1littlewolf



...whole point of FREE WILL, which you would like to childishly maintain does not exist, is, there was a choice! You may not remember the choice...like you do not remember being born!

...and so we spend our lives, arguing the pro's and con's of FREE WILL / NON-FREE WILL...
Question: is anyone, in any way, being compelled to ponder this?

If the answer is NO...then, what do you call what you are doing?

The negation of FREE WILL is a blatant abrogation of responsibility for your own actions!

Akushla


I was hoping you'd appear on this thread
You never did give me a satisfactory response to my randomness and freewill thread. I just figured you'd been blinded by logic and given up. And here you are.....and yet still no satisfactory response....

Whether you ponder this or not does not in any way mean you have any freewill in the eqation. I ponder this cos it is an interesting topic, and it is interesting to me as my brain has been programmed through its hardware (genetics) and software (prior experience). I also ponder this as my job is currently boring as batsh*t and things are kinda slow (external environment)

*Please firstly read my answer, which is I admit near identical to the answers I gave to you. There you will see I in no way say that the fact that freewill is an illusion stops you from making choices, nor does it stop you from dealing with the consequences of those choices. It is the mechanics behind why you make that choice which is what I'm getting at. Also there you will find a great example of how freewill does not apply which you conveniently choose to ignore (or not read at all).

*Next, please give an example of any choice you make that is not a direct response to the circumstance you find yourself in and the programming you have in your brain (which is based on genetics and prior experience).

In other words give me an example of any decision you've ever made which is based on pure freewill. Note this will be a decision which is not a response to your external environment, and has nothing to do with your brains programming.

This is how you win arguments, Not by calling someone names or dismissing statements off hand with no counter arguments.

edit on 2/9/2011 by 1littlewolf because: dodgy spelling


Firstly, apologies if i insulted you.
Secondly, i do understand what you're saying.
My viewpoint comes from a different direction.
Thirdly I'm not trying to 'win' an argument...

Yes, inherently, decisions are based on prior experience...i dont think this negates FREE WILL...because there is still choice, n'est pas? Even choices based on past experience...
NOW, if you are saying that you have no choice...i will disagree.
No-one is specifically forcing you to choose one choice over another - or are they?
If you have experienced that, running out in front of traffic, might potentially kill you...do you really think that, NOT choosing to run out is a form of non-FREE WILL?

An example of a decision NOT based on FREE WILL cannot be had. This is my point! The mechanics are irrelevant, whether environment, experience, surroundings...whatever...it is still FREE WILL...a will that you excercise freely, without being forced to...not even by yourself! Decisions are based on whatever spurs you to keep going...otherwise, you ABROGATE your responsibility to yourself and to others...it is the kind of attitude that you see plastered on the media, when an individual is deemed 'not responsible due to mental impairment'. When you give up your right to excercise responsibility, you use your FREE WILL to give up that FREE WILL, and thusly render yourself, 'in abrogation of responsibility'. Children, of a certain age can be said to be free of these responsibilities, up until a certain age...specifically because they have no life experiences from which to draw decisions from.

I'm sorry about your job...there's always Klondike!

The contention that FREE WILL is an illusion is somewhat, 'argument for arguments sake', in my view. When you peel the onion, the core is FREE WILL...the outer layers are combinations of what the environment dishes up, what experiences color your decisions, and whatever surroundings form the terrain which needs to be negotiated, based on your decisions from past experiences or spur of the moment (flash) decisions...from which you make a decision based on FREE WILL.

Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


Sorry but i have to disagree, i have no choice but to.
Everything including yourself is being done.
Think of it like a cog in a watch. You are a movement within the entire universe, you can not be separate to the universe anymore than a cog can work independantly from the watch. The cog may believe that it has freewill but it has no choice in which direction it moves, the whole watch is moving it.
Also as i wrote earlier, if there is freewill, why do people make new years resolutions and then break them? Why do people eat too much and get fat and then want to lose weight?
We are being driven like the cog.

If the cog can see the whole watch, see the mechanism, it will become aware that it is perfectly positioned and that it is part of the whole. It will then be at peace.
There is great freedom when you locate the self.



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 06:07 AM
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Firstly, apologies if i insulted you.
Secondly, i do understand what you're saying.
My viewpoint comes from a different direction.
Thirdly I'm not trying to 'win' an argument...


All good....its just that the word 'childish' is one of the few descriptions that I haven't been called yet, (at least on ATS
) Possibly we're arguing for the same thing from completely different sides or we have different ideas on what exactly freewill entails idk, but I'm not here trying to win debating team points either.



Yes, inherently, decisions are based on prior experience...i dont think this negates FREE WILL...because there is still choice, n'est pas? NOW, if you are saying that you have no choice...i will disagree.
No-one is specifically forcing you to choose one choice over another - or are they?
If you have experienced that, running out in front of traffic, might potentially kill you...do you really think that, NOT choosing to run out is a form of non-FREE WILL?


I obviously believe we all make choices. But all I'm saying is given a specific circumstance, at a specific time, with a given frame of mind we will only ever make the one choice. There may well be many choices which we could pick all of which could all be positive (or negative), but If every condition were to be exactly the same as before (such as your groundhog day example in my other thread) then you will make the same the exact same choice again. Now obviously this theory is un-testable because time as we perceive it does not stand still. But when viewed in a mathematical sense I cannot see how it could happen any other way.

You yourself said in my other thread you don't believe that anything is random. What I'm saying is that human consciousness works in the exact same way.



An example of a decision NOT based on FREE WILL cannot be had. This is my point! The mechanics are irrelevant, whether environment, experience, surroundings...whatever...it is still FREE WILL...a will that you excercise freely, without being forced to...not even by yourself!


Possibly this is where our conflict arises. For I believe the mechanics behind the choice made (at least for the sake of this debate) are completely relevant. I agree that almost any choice we make is not forced on us. But the mechanics behind how we came to make the choice in the first place - which are unchangeable for they occur in the past - are exactly what matters. It is our memories, our experiences, and the thought patterns they leave behind that cause our mind to choose in a certain way. They don’t just colour our choice as you said, they make our choice. Ultimately we are still making a choice, but if these things were different then our choices would be different.

We are a product of these experiences, memories and thought patterns. Some are caused directly by choices we made in the past, others from external stimuli, but they are a filter through which every decision we make are must pass.



Decisions are based on whatever spurs you to keep going...otherwise, you ABROGATE your responsibility to yourself and to others...it is the kind of attitude that you see plastered on the media, when an individual is deemed 'not responsible due to mental impairment'. When you give up your right to excercise responsibility, you use your FREE WILL to give up that FREE WILL, and thusly render yourself, 'in abrogation of responsibility'. Children, of a certain age can be said to be free of these responsibilities, up until a certain age...specifically because they have no life experiences from which to draw decisions from.


Like I said we still make choices though, and we must all face the consqences of these choices. I am in no way condoning the abrogation of any personal responsibilities towards yourself and/or others



I'm sorry about your job...there's always Klondike!


lol don't worry it occasionally gets quite interesting. Occasionally.



The contention that FREE WILL is an illusion is somewhat, 'argument for arguments sake', in my view. When you peel the onion, the core is FREE WILL...the outer layers are combinations of what the environment dishes up, what experiences colour your decisions, and whatever surroundings form the terrain which needs to be negotiated, based on your decisions from past experiences or spur of the moment (flash) decisions...from which you make a decision based on FREE WILL. I believe that freewill are the outer layers, the inner layers are the external stimuli, and at the core is you

Akushla


That freewill is an illusion is the whole point of what I'm saying. But I differentiate between choice and free will. You don't seem to. Maybe all this confusion is merely a case of semantics......?

I'm gonna have to think about that onion metaphor a little longer. For some reason I can't get my points to fit into an onion.....



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Beautiful metaphor, I couldn't have said it better myself....this is one I will remember for the rest of my life.

I guess sometimes it takes someone else to read between the lines of what your trying to say and actually say it
edit on 2/9/2011 by 1littlewolf because: spelling



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 06:17 AM
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reply to post by 1littlewolf
 


Now we can relax in the knowing that it is all happening just as it should. I am free.
It just happens.
youtu.be...
edit on 2-9-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99
 


Sorry but i have to disagree, i have no choice but to.
Everything including yourself is being done.
Think of it like a cog in a watch. You are a movement within the entire universe, you can not be separate to the universe anymore than a cog can work independantly from the watch. The cog may believe that it has freewill but it has no choice in which direction it moves, the whole watch is moving it.
Also as i wrote earlier, if there is freewill, why do people make new years resolutions and then break them? Why do people eat too much and get fat and then want to lose weight?
We are being driven like the cog.

If the cog can see the whole watch, see the mechanism, it will become aware that it is perfectly positioned and that it is part of the whole. It will then be at peace.
There is great freedom when you locate the self.


I bow to you...oh buddha!
By definition, you are rambling on about a ridiculous idea called, the clockwork universe.
You are confusing the machinery of the physical self and its supposed and apparent material interaction with the material world.
In reality, oh Buddha...you are not being coerced into anything. Your FREE WILL, by dent of its process, according to the reality (supposedly magically) appearing before your childlike eyes...has caused a confusion in you. You are confusing the outcome with the processes which produce those outcomes.
If you want to believe, that you are a watch...or a cog in a watch...that is your FREE WILL in action (and the universe will configure itself beautifully to render this reality before you). What this implies, in the extreme, IS, that you have no responsibility for your actions. IF, you disagree with this contention, then you, by definition, agree that you have FREE WILL, and are responsible for those decisions, based on your FREE WILL to choose. Predestination DOES NOT imply the lack of FREE WILL. You may decide to walk to the shop to get some milk...the shop is your destination...so it is predestined that you go to the shop...YOU, predestined it! Anywhere, on the way, you may stop, meet someone, have a chat, say goodbye, continue on to the shop...YOUR DESTINATION. Within that little jaunt you have demonstrated that you could entertain the concept of predestination and FREE WILL...both, at the same time!

This IS what happens. You are granted, as many lifetimes as you like to amuse yourself with the notion that you are a cog, or a watch, or whatever you want...until...you WAKE UP!

A cog in a watch does not murder other cogs, and certainly doesnt go to gaol for it!
If you want to try a little excercise...perform a crime, get caught, appear in court...and tell the court...'your honor, I am a cog. Therefore, i cannot be held responsible for my actions'.
This is a convenient 'defence' used in many serious crimes.
The translation of that defence is...
I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS!
...ABROGATION OF RESPONSIBILITY!

[Also as i wrote earlier, if there is freewill, why do people make new years resolutions and then break them? Why do people eat too much and get fat and then want to lose weight?]
ANSWER:
Because people are lazy, lie to themselves, like to impress others under the influence, have problems dealing with real life and eat too much Macca's and sweet cola, while lounging in front of the idiot box instead of eating properly and moving around so they don't put on weight!
Ridiculous question!

Oh Cog Buddha,
I bow to you

Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by 1littlewolf


Firstly, apologies if i insulted you.
Secondly, i do understand what you're saying.
My viewpoint comes from a different direction.
Thirdly I'm not trying to 'win' an argument...


All good....its just that the word 'childish' is one of the few descriptions that I haven't been called yet, (at least on ATS
) Possibly we're arguing for the same thing from completely different sides or we have different ideas on what exactly freewill entails idk, but I'm not here trying to win debating team points either.



Yes, inherently, decisions are based on prior experience...i dont think this negates FREE WILL...because there is still choice, n'est pas? NOW, if you are saying that you have no choice...i will disagree.
No-one is specifically forcing you to choose one choice over another - or are they?
If you have experienced that, running out in front of traffic, might potentially kill you...do you really think that, NOT choosing to run out is a form of non-FREE WILL?


I obviously believe we all make choices. But all I'm saying is given a specific circumstance, at a specific time, with a given frame of mind we will only ever make the one choice. There may well be many choices which we could pick all of which could all be positive (or negative), but If every condition were to be exactly the same as before (such as your groundhog day example in my other thread) then you will make the same the exact same choice again. Now obviously this theory is un-testable because time as we perceive it does not stand still. But when viewed in a mathematical sense I cannot see how it could happen any other way.

You yourself said in my other thread you don't believe that anything is random. What I'm saying is that human consciousness works in the exact same way.



An example of a decision NOT based on FREE WILL cannot be had. This is my point! The mechanics are irrelevant, whether environment, experience, surroundings...whatever...it is still FREE WILL...a will that you excercise freely, without being forced to...not even by yourself!


Possibly this is where our conflict arises. For I believe the mechanics behind the choice made (at least for the sake of this debate) are completely relevant. I agree that almost any choice we make is not forced on us. But the mechanics behind how we came to make the choice in the first place - which are unchangeable for they occur in the past - are exactly what matters. It is our memories, our experiences, and the thought patterns they leave behind that cause our mind to choose in a certain way. They don’t just colour our choice as you said, they make our choice. Ultimately we are still making a choice, but if these things were different then our choices would be different.

We are a product of these experiences, memories and thought patterns. Some are caused directly by choices we made in the past, others from external stimuli, but they are a filter through which every decision we make are must pass.



Decisions are based on whatever spurs you to keep going...otherwise, you ABROGATE your responsibility to yourself and to others...it is the kind of attitude that you see plastered on the media, when an individual is deemed 'not responsible due to mental impairment'. When you give up your right to excercise responsibility, you use your FREE WILL to give up that FREE WILL, and thusly render yourself, 'in abrogation of responsibility'. Children, of a certain age can be said to be free of these responsibilities, up until a certain age...specifically because they have no life experiences from which to draw decisions from.


Like I said we still make choices though, and we must all face the consqences of these choices. I am in no way condoning the abrogation of any personal responsibilities towards yourself and/or others



I'm sorry about your job...there's always Klondike!


lol don't worry it occasionally gets quite interesting. Occasionally.



The contention that FREE WILL is an illusion is somewhat, 'argument for arguments sake', in my view. When you peel the onion, the core is FREE WILL...the outer layers are combinations of what the environment dishes up, what experiences colour your decisions, and whatever surroundings form the terrain which needs to be negotiated, based on your decisions from past experiences or spur of the moment (flash) decisions...from which you make a decision based on FREE WILL. I believe that freewill are the outer layers, the inner layers are the external stimuli, and at the core is you

Akushla


That freewill is an illusion is the whole point of what I'm saying. But I differentiate between choice and free will. You don't seem to.

So...your choice, is NOT an illusion - but, your FREE WILL, is?
How do choice and FREE WILL, interact in this complicated dance?
...and to what end?

Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


Very condesending attitude but i can not blame you as you have no choice in being that way.



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99
 


Very condesending attitude but i can not blame you as you have no choice in being that way.


...and everything is right within the clock!







Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


The watch (the universe) is working perfectly.
You should go to wikipedia and see their definition of freewill.



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by akushla99
 


The watch (the universe) is working perfectly.
You should go to wikipedia and see their definition of freewill.


I agree...the universe is working perfectly!
It is working according to One very special rule...amongst others...
The rule of FREE WILL!

i would think twice about referencing wikipedia for anything.
Its called,
Knowledge by consensus.
Dangerous, very dangerous.

Akushla



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:19 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


Choice is exactly what you understand it to be, free will is the apparent ability of humans to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

It is not complicated..



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


That's right stick to what you know. Even if it is not right thinking. The definition of freewill on wikipedia is very interesting and indepth with many different views but i can see that yours is the one you will stick with.
Stay as the confused and unhappy cog that does not know its place.
Or be happy and at peace by seeing the whole.
edit on 2-9-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


There are no rules here.
We are in freefall.
Only a human believes in rules and that is because he makes them.
Make the rules and live by them, or be free.
Which?

Please find a reference where it says that freewill is the rule and post it up.
edit on 2-9-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2011 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by 1littlewolf
reply to post by akushla99
 


Choice is exactly what you understand it to be, free will is the apparent ability of humans to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

It is not complicated..


I have no illusions about how 'things' are working!
If, by constraints, you mean...conditions under which the human experience is being lived...i agree.
We are in a locum which is under the 'constraints' of certain physical conditions. Our bodies are physical, and those constraints apply fully to any physical 'thing', including our boxes of atomic slime!...but, there is a driver of this box, who is pondering the intricacies of FREE WILL, and CHOICE...there IS an end point, and we have as many lifetimes as we like to meander, chat to someone, until we get 'to the shop'!

The universe configures itself into any form you want, including the form of non-FREE WILL...and so configured it will be to those who would like to have it that way, according to the precept of FREE WILL!

All boils down to FREE WILL!

Akushla




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