CERN is clueless, science is confused

reply to post by Astyanax


On the distinction between a vector and a scalar, light is very defiantly a vector and it does put the term momentum into better context.

If your explanation were the right one, it seems to me that the sail would merely glow – radiate energy in all directions – but go nowhere.

I have not seen a solar sail in operation, only the theory presented. I would expect the side of the sail facing the sun would glow while the side facing deep space would not, except for a very faint reflection from the stars. This will create a pressure difference between the side facing the sun and the side facing the dark. As with usual sails, it is this pressure difference that provides movement. I do consider it is the electrons being excited and not the photons that is the source of this pressure difference.

Your explanation on the change of light speed is very good , I was not aware of the reduction in frequency but it does make sense. I see it is due to a loss of resolution in the light signal as it passes through more dense material. One other comment about light bending through space, I see light is lazy and takes the path of least resistance much like electricity.

Yet these ‘imaginary’ particles are visible to the naked eye, knock other particles about and leave tracks on photographic film. All that sounds pretty real to me.

Sound can also be recorded, sensed and leave permanent physical changes if strong enough but there is no special particle behind this force.

The compression of electrons? Care to explain how one compresses an electron?

The classic description in how photons are created is when an electron drops to a lower orbit, this sends out a photon which causes an electron in another atom to increase its orbit as it is absorbed, then release another photon as it drops back down.

The way I see it, atoms are very sensitive to their environment and always looking for balance in its environment. If an atoms neighbours has an electron starting to jump up and down in orbit, the atom will sense this and respond to the altering electromagnetic field that the arrangement of electrons and protons create. On a larger scale this can be demonstrated by having a row of magnets tied up, bump one magnet and this bump is transferred throughout all the magnets. With atoms and electrons being on such a small scale, these bumps are transferred very fast, hence the speed of light.

Electrons are very tricky things to try and tie down and appear to be in constant motion jumping around all over the place. With lots of stimulation from a dynamic environment they have lots to 'talk about'.

The photoelectric effect in general is evidence of the very real nature of photons. Photons cause these effects by real collisions with matter. It is only the desire to avoid rewriting 100 years of quantum mechanics equations that keeps this obvious truism from being properly explained. Claiming that solar sails are driven by ions immediately opens the question 'what's driving the ions?', and you're straight back to trying to avoid giving a mechanical cause to electromagnetic charge.

The EM field is photons, and photons cause real physical effects via bombardment. Placing the word 'virtual' before these effects and leaving it at that is a joke imo.

We don't need to go into space to see the effect of photon collisions, the crookes radiometer has been showing this for the last 140 years:
en.wikipedia.org...

"On the distinction between a vector and a scalar, light is very defiantly a vector and it does put the term momentum into better context. "

'Light' is the electromagnetic wave, anything with a wave has more interacting values than can be contained in a vector alone. A wave is an acceleration, mathematically speaking - it curves.

reply to post by yampa

The photoelectric effect in general is evidence of the very real nature of photons.

I have been thinking about this and it is an interesting one. Just where does the electron comes from that is collected in a solar cell? The light source appears to be the logical answer, are electrons just shuffled along the chain of atoms between the source and collector?

I am not sure how you make an electron, but even with an infinite amount of massless photons, the mass is not there to make a electron that does have mass, so where does the mass come from if photons are real?

reply to post by kwakakev


Perhaps mass comes as an effect created by the focus of electron density in a designated space. The negative charges combine pulling positive entities that do have a mass together. Also pure light has been found to generate a magnetic field if focused into a highly confined space.

reply to post by kwakakev

Just where does the electron comes from that is collected in a solar cell? The light source appears to be the logical answer, are electrons just shuffled along the chain of atoms between the source and collector?

I am not sure how you make an electron, but even with an infinite amount of massless photons, the mass is not there to make a electron that does have mass, so where does the mass come from if photons are real?

The electron is always there. The electromagnetic wave propels the electron along the (semi)conductor. Think of a pipe full of water being propelled by a water pump....the water is the electrons and the photovoltaic cell the pump. The magnetic aspect of the electromagnetic wave is what drives(excites) the electron and propels it.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by JaxCavalera

Perhaps mass comes as an effect created by the focus of electron density in a designated space. The negative charges combine pulling positive entities that do have a mass together.

This is a good point as there is a big difficulty in creating a pure vacuum as it appears that sub atomic matter pops in and out of existence. If CERN did find Higgs Boson then it would support this theory as an explanation for where the mass comes from. A photon does not have an electrical charge, at least not a charge that is consistent with the +ve and -ve of the electron and proton. I am not sure if there is a different characteristic with light that is produced from the positrons of antimatter and how this works with the light we commonly know.

Also pure light has been found to generate a magnetic field if focused into a highly confined space.

Cool, I did not know that. I did know that the polarisation of the light can be affected by a magnetic field though.

In thinking how a generator works with creating / collecting electrons, electron density does look to be part of the equation. It does take a very large electrical current to create a permanent magnet with the strength of the magnetic current fading over time and with a drain applied to it. From my understanding the atoms of the magnet do all align to multiply and magnify their weak nuclear forces, but I am not sure where all the electrons go and how they come back again with magnetic currents. The kinetic force that needs to be applied may have something to do with the electron density.

If there is a difference in mass between a charged and uncharged magnet then the electrons are stored in the magnet somewhere. There is a difference in mass between a charged and uncharged battery.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

The electron is always there. The electromagnetic wave propels the electron along the (semi)conductor. Think of a pipe full of water being propelled by a water pump....the water is the electrons and the photovoltaic cell the pump. The magnetic aspect of the electromagnetic wave is what drives(excites) the electron and propels it.

There are 6,241,509,629,152,650,000 electrons in 1 joule or 1 watt per second. If an empty battery was connected to the solar cell then most of these electrons will end up in the battery, some will get lost due to resistance and heat along the way. It is the impurities in the silicon that perform this pump function, different metals respond to different wavelengths of light and are able to produce a supply of electrons when exposed to high enough frequencies. If these metals in the solar cell where not able to harness new electrons from the light, these metals would be quickly depleted and tightly hold onto any new electrons that came by until it had enough to spare.

Since different metals exhibit this ability at different frequencies, maybe something is going on within the nucleus of the atom? One idea for the electron to always be there is if the electron is like love, the more excited it gets the more love it has to spread around so the electron divides, half stays with the atom and half goes down to the battery. But it does not fully explain where the mass comes from if an electron was to divide.

The reason is that the scientific theory are based on a single quanta-particle as the ultimate reality. The truth is that Consciousness manifests thought, Thought manifests power, Power manifests the "Word", the "Word" manifests an illusion of permanent existence (higgs boson etc), the Illusion manifests attraction of one one part to another (gravity and all other attraction forces), Attraction creates duality (good evil, electromagnetic force, charges, living dead, different matter types, change) and duality manifests a working space. The mantra that reveals this is Ra Ma Da Sa At Ay Oh Hum. It is an issue similar to trying to solve a multi-factor multidimensional equation in 12 domains. Along the way you will get several apparent associations, but if you solve it as a whole the answer is wrong. I will give you a hint, part of the equation to solve the last four parts and get a "material" as absolute GUT was openly posted on 8-3-11's site! I think Kaku would have fun with this.

O*^Z׵]u]9M5]u]zo[M]u]4t]|NuMt]t^]t]tM=X^ Copy this and change font to symbol to get the equation, It appears to be missing a big part the left of O*


Dimensional theory,

10/0= Conciousness itself Ra

9= Descention from singularity of pure awareness/thought sat guna intellect Ma

8=Manifesting thought as energy in motion, creation of raj guna Da

7=Manifesting Consiousness energy into lower dimensional realms= tamo guna Sa

-----

6=Quantum duality (particle source manifestation, Atman, higgs etc) At

5= Gravity (attractive force sustaining life) Ay

4= Entropy (repulsive force causing decay) Quantum duality (particle source manifestation, maya) Oh

------- Hum

3= Height

2= Width

1= Length

Rama, Bearer of light; Da-sa, Power and truth; At-ay Without delusion or false attraction; Oh-hum (aum), Manifest into the material domain of existence.

Originally posted by eywadevotee
The reason is that the scientific theory are based on a single quanta-particle as the ultimate reality.

That is neither good mysticism or good physics!

reply to post by yampa

That is neither good mysticism or good physics!

Agreed. And this thread has developed well beyond the point where that kind of thing is a relevant input.

kwakalev, OccamAssassin and yampa are giving you the real stuff.

Discussing real physics on ATS for a change. Truly a rare pleasure.

Originally posted by kwakakev
reply to post by OccamAssassin

 

The electron is always there. The electromagnetic wave propels the electron along the (semi)conductor. Think of a pipe full of water being propelled by a water pump....the water is the electrons and the photovoltaic cell the pump. The magnetic aspect of the electromagnetic wave is what drives(excites) the electron and propels it.

There are 6,241,509,629,152,650,000 electrons in 1 joule or 1 watt per second. If an empty battery was connected to the solar cell then most of these electrons will end up in the battery, some will get lost due to resistance and heat along the way. It is the impurities in the silicon that perform this pump function, different metals respond to different wavelengths of light and are able to produce a supply of electrons when exposed to high enough frequencies. If these metals in the solar cell where not able to harness new electrons from the light, these metals would be quickly depleted and tightly hold onto any new electrons that came by until it had enough to spare.

This is taken from wikipedia and explains it better than I have

Simple explanation

1.Photons in sunlight hit the solar panel and are absorbed by semiconducting materials, such as silicon.
2.Electrons (negatively charged) are knocked loose from their atoms, allowing them to flow through the material to produce electricity. Due to the special composition of solar cells, the electrons are only allowed to move in a single direction.
3.An array of solar cells converts solar energy into a usable amount of direct current (DC) electricity.

If these metals in the solar cell where not able to harness new electrons from the light, these metals would be quickly depleted and tightly hold onto any new electrons that came by until it had enough to spare.

A solar cell is essentially a form of diode that will only allow electron flow in one direction.

Hence it will have a an inflow and an outflow of electrons. (I'm trying not to drag Kirchoff's laws into this but they do explain the situation).

This explains it better than I ever could....

When a photon is absorbed, its energy is given to an electron in the crystal lattice. Usually this electron is in the valence band, and is tightly bound in covalent bonds between neighboring atoms, and hence unable to move far. The energy given to it by the photon "excites" it into the conduction band, where it is free to move around within the semiconductor. The covalent bond that the electron was previously a part of now has one fewer electron — this is known as a hole. The presence of a missing covalent bond allows the bonded electrons of neighboring atoms to move into the "hole," leaving another hole behind, and in this way a hole can move through the lattice. Thus, it can be said that photons absorbed in the semiconductor create mobile electron-hole pairs.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

Photons in sunlight hit the solar panel and are absorbed by semiconducting materials, such as silicon.

Actually silicon is non conductive, it is the other materials within the silicon that allow for the 'semi conductor'. This is just a minor point and I do get the diode part.

The presence of a missing covalent bond allows the bonded electrons of neighboring atoms to move into the "hole," leaving another hole behind, and in this way a hole can move through the lattice.

But this does not explain where the mass comes from to replenish all these holes. Just saying that this hole is filled by its neighbour and leave it at that is incomplete. So what happens when all these neighbour holes are empty? Do they just get their electrons from their neighbours as well? What is the source for all these electrons and the mass they have? Does this mass just pop into the environment from some other dimension? Does the atom some how make its own electrons when there are no spare ones around? Or do the electrons flow from the light source to replenish this drain of electrons? Or does this mass come from somewhere else.

It seams like CERN is not the only ones clueless...

Originally posted by kwakakev
reply to post by OccamAssassin

 

Photons in sunlight hit the solar panel and are absorbed by semiconducting materials, such as silicon.

Actually silicon is non conductive, it is the other materials within the silicon that allow for the 'semi conductor'. This is just a minor point and I do get the diode part.

The silicone is doped with a conductor(two actually) so technically the "doped silicone" absorbs the EM wave...
Image pilfered from Wikipedia

The presence of a missing covalent bond allows the bonded electrons of neighboring atoms to move into the "hole," leaving another hole behind, and in this way a hole can move through the lattice.

But this does not explain where the mass comes from to replenish all these holes. Just saying that this hole is filled by its neighbour and leave it at that is incomplete. So what happens when all these neighbour holes are empty? Do they just get their electrons from their neighbours as well? What is the source for all these electrons and the mass they have? Does this mass just pop into the environment from some other dimension? Does the atom some how make its own electrons when there are no spare ones around? Or do the electrons flow from the light source to replenish this drain of electrons? Or does this mass come from somewhere else.

As I stated before, the electrons are already there.

None are created or lost!

The are charged with electrical potential energy, they then flow through the circuit and return to the "pump" (in this case the pump - as previously stated in the water pipe analogy - is the photovoltaic cell) to be recharged with electrical energy again and so on....

The depleted electrons are attracted to the "holes" in the lattice until the EM wave charges them with enough kinetic energy to be dislodged(repulsed) again.

The diode effect of the photovoltaic cell stops the electrons from flowing backward.

It seams like CERN is not the only ones clueless...

Thats OK, it took me a while to get my head around the concept too. If you want to understand more about electron flow in circuits I would suggest to try and understand how magnetic inductance(specifically power generation) works. This will make understanding electron flow and basic circuits a breeze. Also checkout Kirchhoff's volt law(KVL) and Kirchhoff's current law(KCL) as they are both fundamental concepts required to understanding circuits.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

The depleted electrons are attracted to the "holes" in the lattice until the EM wave charges them with enough EMF to be dislodged again.

This is where the problem is, how does an EM wave become an electron? The photon in an EM wave does not have mass while an electron does, where does this mass come from? If you put a drain on the solar cell there is a flow of electrons out of the solar cell unit and into what ever is plugged in. All these electrons are coming from somewhere and are only flowing when the light is on.

This problem is not limited to solar cells, but radio waves as well. A transmitter puts out a large amount of electrons and the antenna picks up these electrons, in the middle we have this explanation of massless photons doing the work but the equations on mass are not adding up.

If CERN found Higgs Boson then there would be an explanation in how a massless photon becomes an electron with mass, this is what is leaving me clueless and thinking that the photon does not exist. All the good work that has been done on the photon is actually more about the EMF of the atom.

reply to post by kwakakev

This is where the problem is, how does an EM wave become an electron? The photon in an EM wave does not have mass while an electron does, where does this mass come from?

The EM wave (photon) does not become an electron. It merely imparts an electric field (charge) on the electron already in the conductor.

If you put a drain on the solar cell there is a flow of electrons out of the solar cell unit and into what ever is plugged in. All these electrons are coming from somewhere and are only flowing when the light is on.

The electron still flows out of the load (light, battery*, etc) without the electric field(charge) and back into the source(pump, photovoltaic cell, battery*, etc). The electron does not stop at the load (remember that an electric circuit must be connected as a loop, otherwise we have a short circuit), it flows back to the source to be "recharged" again.

*A battery can be either a source of current or a load depending on its "charge state".

This problem is not limited to solar cells, but radio waves as well. A transmitter puts out a large amount of electrons and the antenna picks up these electrons, in the middle we have this explanation of massless photons doing the work but the equations on mass are not adding up.

An antenna does not put out electrons, but a self propagating electromagnetic wave.(yep you guessed it...a light wave, but not, however, in the visible light spectrum)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aaf8dc4fba4b.png[/atsimg]

If CERN found Higgs Boson then there would be an explanation in how a massless photon becomes an electron with mass, this is what is leaving me clueless and thinking that the photon does not exist. All the good work that has been done on the photon is actually more about the EMF of the atom.

The Higgs-Boson(God) particle is theorised to be the unifying factor in particle physics to explain "weak nuclear force"(the glue of atoms).

From Wikipedia

For example, the Higgs boson would explain the difference between the massless photon, which mediates electromagnetism, and the massive W and Z bosons, which mediate the weak force. If the Higgs boson exists, it is an integral and pervasive component of the material world and would be of a class of particles known as scalar bosons.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

nevermind ... y'all talking PHotons and i saw protons ...

reply to post by Honor93


Photons!

reply to post by OccamAssassin
yeah, i caught that, thanks anyway
2nd line

reply to post by OccamAssassin

The electron still flows out of the load (light, battery*, etc) without the electric field(charge) and back into the source(pump, photovoltaic cell, battery*, etc). The electron does not stop at the load (remember that an electric circuit must be connected as a loop, otherwise we have a short circuit), it flows back to the source to be "recharged" again.

What happens when the load is a depleted battery? The electrons stay at the depleted battery and do not return back to the source to go around the circuit again. This can be demonstrated by an increase in the mass of the battery as it recharges.

An antenna does not put out electrons, but a self propagating electromagnetic wave.(yep you guessed it...a light wave, but not, however, in the visible light spectrum)

I know this how the current model describes things working. Lets say we have a battery driving our transmitter and a capacitor connected to our crystal radio receiver. As this radio works, there will be a decrease in mass in the battery until it is empty and an increase in mass in the capacitor until it is full. The current model of the photon fails to describe this movement of mass.

reply to post by kwakakev

What happens when the load is a depleted battery? The electrons stay at the depleted battery and do not return back to the source to go around the circuit again.

No. In the water analogy, the depleted battery is represented by a water pump that has stopped turning. The water(electrons) is(are) still there (it doesn't build up at any one point), it just isn't flowing any more.

This can be demonstrated by an increase in the mass of the battery as it recharges.

I can see were the confusion is coming from now.

Using Einstein's field equations we can calculate a theoretical equivalent in mass.

Now, take the equation ....

E=Mc²

Re-arrange it as follows

M=E/c²

Now, we want to calculate the change in the mass of the different states(charged & depleted).

M=(Ec-Ed)/c² ............Where Ec is the "Energy in a charged state" and Ed is the "energy in a depleted state".

It would pay to note here the the actual mass of the system does not change. All we have done is quantify the energy of the system with its equivalent in mass.

Einstein's famous equation E=Mc² is calculating how much energy is locked away in the subject mass. Even though we can turn the equation around and calculate it in reverse, we are only putting a theoretical figure on what the equivalent mass would be of a certain amount of energy.