Why do you NOT want chem trails to be real?

Originally posted by EyeDontKnow
reply to post by GoKill

 

But what does oil spill cleanup that have to do with the white lines we see at ~30k feet ?

Mosquito abatement is sometimes sprayed from the air as well.

"The Chemtrail Conspiracy Theory holds that some trails left by aircraft are actually chemical or biological agents deliberately sprayed at high altitudes for a purpose undisclosed to the general public in clandestine programs directed by government officials."
chemtrails defined

Plenty,

Well just like I'm doing in the Vac thread, I can easily handle this subject like a US Court Case.

For a court case to win a convection you need 3 main things.

MEANS
MOTIVE
OPPORTUNITY

Here's what wiki says about it.
en.wikipedia.org...

Can we ALL at least agree on this much?

Ok,
Just like a court case I can do the following things as it concerns CT's. (I have already done it in my head)

1) Establish Credibility of the PARTY supposed to be responsible for this crime or lack there of.

Follow so far?

The party in question, as per wiki's definition would be our Government.

Agreed? so far...

2) Establish the MEANS: Does the US Gov. have the MEANS to spray us with who knows what?
By your own admission they do. However I can certainly expand on that if needed. (planes & money)

But what does oil spill cleanup..........
Mosquito abatement is sometimes sprayed from the air as well.

So can we agree they have the MEANS?
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3.) Next let's look at MOTIVE.
I can and will produce many documents that will establish MOTIVE. You may call them dated, but I say that just shows that they have had MOTIVE longer then most folks realize.
The documents are on subjects such as:
(geoengineering, depopulation, mind control, weather manipulation etc.) Take your pick as far as MOTIVE goes...

So that takes care of MOTIVE ....

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4). Then we have OPPORTUNITY
Well every time a Military C130 etc takes off from an airport there is an OPPORTUNITY.
I could easily expand on this with more evidence if needed.
(civilian contractors. intelligence community, military etc.)

So that takes care of OPPORTUNITY...

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Now back to Credibility:

I can sit here and list the very embarrassing US involvement in everything from drug dealing, to murder through out history. (backed up with Wiki links...)

That will show without a shadow of a doubt the US Gov. has LESS Credibility then a "jail house snitch".

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Just like we ACCUSED, TRIED, and CONDEMNED to DEATH people everyday for years in this country. I too can do this with our Gov. as it concerns Chemtrails...

Then there are the witness, not all are credible (hoaxers, etc.). However in most US Court cases it only takes 1 credible witness to get a conviction. (i have thousands!!!) Even if not are all credible, that still leaves me with plenty...

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IMO Case Closed!!!!

If you want me to start a thread to do this, i can? I'll even call witness for the defense etc. We'll run it just like a court case...

Put you money with your mouth is...

anyone...

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Sorry to hear about your father

Thanks, for giving me that much.

Refer to my reply to EYE for any other questions.

Your invited to join in on my proposal.

Thanks!
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PS. I did go a little hard on the girl. My Bad..
When you see her around the office tell her I said... Sorry..

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by filosophia

 

I never said contrails didn't contain metals...or soot...every internal combustion engine, every jet engine contains metal and soot in it's exhaust.

If you're going to make an issue out of jet exhaust, you will need to also make an issue out of car, truck, bus and train exhaust too, because jet exhaust mostly stays in the upper atmosphere, while car exhaust stays on the ground where you breath it in every day.

well why not? There should be efforts to make cleaner cars that emit no pollution, instead the government gives GM billions of dollars to waste on cars no one buys. And while there are not as many jets in the air, jets are bigger than cars. You don't see a car filling the roadway hours after it left (unless it was a beat up pinto). And that's assuming that it's just a harmless contrail and not a government operation. And that's assuming a lot

with this government.

edit on 23-8-2011 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

THIS IS WHY I FIGHT AGAINST CHEMTRAILS!!!!

You spend countless hours reading garbage science and trying to convince people who already know how to understand REAL science that the boogyman is doing bad things @ 30,000 feet. Yet you seem to be able to comprehend the fact that automobile emissions and factory pollution are a much bigger issue than chemtrails will ever be. Do you fight for cleaner air and a cleaner fuel? NOPE, you spew garbage about fantasy airplanes that don't exist spreading death from above that never happens. GET A CLUE!

Originally posted by GoKill

For a court case to win a convection you need 3 main things.

MEANS
MOTIVE
OPPORTUNITY

You need more than that - you actually have to have some evidence that a crime was committed.

For example I have the means, motive (somewhat) and opportunity to kill a few people I know - yet they are not dead......

4). Then we have OPPORTUNITY
Well every time a Military C130 etc takes off from an airport there is an OPPORTUNITY.
I could easily expand on this with more evidence if needed.
(civilian contractors. intelligence community, military etc.)

So that takes care of OPPORTUNITY...

Not at all- the USAF spray unit has FOUR C-130's fitted with spray units - - how does that explain the chemtrails seen at high level world wide??

And, please, do expand your comment about "civilian contractors, intelligence communits, military etc"

How can somebody NOT want something to be real, that already isn't real? There isn't a thread of rational thought put behind chem-trail theories. Right at the top of this thread is a picture of the Evergreen 747 fire bomber doing testing in the desert, near where they base it. I've seen the thing fight fires with my own eyes. They state what it is right on their site. Yet in conspiracy people's minds, this is about chem trails. I'm waiting for the chem trail people to start something about the smoke coming out of the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds, actually being chemicals to poison people at air shows. Airliners being used to spread chemicals? That would be easy enough to prove... There's only hundreds of thousands of people staring right at the planes sitting on the ramp at airports all around the world, every single day. Tens of thousands of people working on the planes... Cleaning them... Refurbishing them... Flying them... There would be witnesses to this stuff everywhere. Every single common sense issue pertaining to this, is constantly swept under the rug by believers. People who don't believe it don't have anything to sweep, because there isn't anything to hide. It's right there out in the open... It's a bunch of planes flying around making contrails, just like they've been doing since the beginning of high altitude aviation.

I posted a reply to the original question a few pages ago - basically I want chemtrails to be "not real" because if they weer real it means someone is poisoning me - and of course I don't want that!

But there's another point that needs to be made - chemtrails are real or not real regardless of what I want - their existance is not a matter of democracy - if 6 billion people vote that they are real or not real, that dosen't make it so.

What makes them real is that they are real - that they exist - that there actually is something being sprayed with nefarious intent. What makes them not real is that not happening.

So far there is still not one iota of evidence that anything of the sort actually exists - and you'd have to say that is something were being sprayed that is supposedly having some effect, then:

1/ the effect would be able to be discovered/measured/observed, and/or
2/ the something would be detectable.

since neither has actually occured I still reckon there is good enough evidence of absence to conclude that chemtrails, as usually hypothesised do not exist.

Of course for other theories of chemtrails you'd have to look at the relevant evidence too - but so far no-one's made a good case for anything more than cloud seeding, agricultural spraying and prospective geo-engineering. None of which, IMO, are a curent problem.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

You need more than that - you actually have to have some evidence that a crime was committed.

Not necessarily, go ask any one of the thousands of folks in prison who were convicted on eye witness testimony alone. Not to mention these stupid patriot act laws, where you can be held indefinitely without being charged. What about the folks in prison based on circumstantial evidence alone....

For example I have the means, motive (somewhat) and opportunity to kill a few people I know - yet they are not dead......

Your not the one on trial with this particular thread. (apples & oranges) Besides let one of your friends come up dead, and those 3 things may become very important, real quick. Especially if you get accused or become a suspect..... Your post could above could actually be used against you.

Not at all- the USAF spray unit has FOUR C-130's fitted with spray units - - how does that explain the chemtrails seen at high level world wide??

That was a mere example of them having the 'capability' to spray sht out of planes. The evidence I have suggest that it has been contracted out.


I see you guys have very intelligently avoided my proposal. hummmm

This subject is like ET's.... Meaning until one lands on your front lawn and ask to borrow some jumper cables.... It is REAL easy to dispute. If you spent half the time chasing down leads that it IS happening as you do spreading disinfo.... You would CLEARLY see the connections for yourself. The mere FACT that there are so many disinfo folks working on this says a lot........ Come on lets put them on trial.... If your so convinced, there should be no problems winning the case...

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Sorry but even a simpleton can see that something is not normal....

Randomly selected from around the web....

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

So far there is still not one iota of evidence that anything of the sort actually exists - and you'd have to say that is something were being sprayed that is supposedly having some effect, then:

1/ the effect would be able to be discovered/measured/observed, and/or
2/ the something would be detectable.

since neither has actually occured I still reckon there is good enough to conclude that chemtrails, do not exist.

There's ALL of the above, you just choose to ignore it. When you dismis official government documents, you make it real clear what your agenda is.....

Which is why some of the Best insiders etc in the world have left ATS...

Just search the net for 'what happened to above top secret' and you'll see what most people think of this place...

any questions????

I feel dirty after being here for just a few minutes, going take a shower......

Originally posted by GoKill

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

You need more than that - you actually have to have some evidence that a crime was committed.

Not necessarily,

Yes - necessarily - regardless of anything else, a crime has to be committed in the first place.

Sure you can have a trumped up charge where no crime was commited & either evidence planted, or a conspiracy concocted to "stitch someone up", etc., - but there does need to be some evidence of the alleged crime - the 3 things you initially mention - motive, opportunity, ability are NOT enough to convict.

eithe that or an awful lot of people are actually guilty of murder although they've never killed anyone!!

go ask any one of the thousands of folks in prison who were convicted on eye witness testimony alone. Not to mention these stupid patriot act laws, where you can be held indefinitely without being charged. What about the folks in prison based on circumstantial evidence alone....

There has still been a crime committed in those cases - even if the wrong person is convicted the crime still occured & someone did it.

And if someone lied about the crime being committed then it's a false conviction - so why would you want that to happen?

For example I have the means, motive (somewhat) and opportunity to kill a few people I know - yet they are not dead......

Your not the one on trial with this particular thread.

You understand what an example is, right??

You said that means, motive & opportunity are enough to secure guilt in court - yet it is easy - heck trivial even - to show that is not true.

(apples & oranges) Besides let one of your friends come up dead, and those 3 things may become very important, real quick. Especially if you get accused or become a suspect..... Your post could above could actually be used against you.

In which case a crime would actually have been committed - thank you for reinforcing MY point, and showing yours up as insufficient.

Not at all- the USAF spray unit has FOUR C-130's fitted with spray units - - how does that explain the chemtrails seen at high level world wide??

That was a mere example of them having the 'capability' to spray sht out of planes.

So you do know what an example is - so how come it is OK for you to use them, and not me??

The evidence I have suggest that it has been contracted out.

So present it - ain't no-one stopping you.

I see you guys have very intelligently avoided my proposal. hummmm

No one is stopping you from presenting anything you want - you don't need anyone's approval to start a thread on a topic & you willhave the moderators there to help keep people on topic for you.

If you spent half the time chasing down leads that it IS happening as you do spreading disinfo....

I look up every lead someone posts that it IS happening - so far they all fall short - indeed it is the suggestions that it IS happening that smack of disinfo to me - they are SO inadequate as to be suspect IMO!

Sorry but even a simpleton can see that something is not normal....

Randomly selected from around the web....

Yeah - right - one of them is a "chemtrail poster" - selected randomly from the web?? :

the other 2 are shots of contrails - one with a gap in it, one of a sky crowded with them - no context, no date, no location, nothing to say why they are not contrails......yet another "evidence" fail!

Originally posted by GoKill

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

So far there is still not one iota of evidence that anything of the sort actually exists - and you'd have to say that is something were being sprayed that is supposedly having some effect, then:

1/ the effect would be able to be discovered/measured/observed, and/or
2/ the something would be detectable.

since neither has actually occured I still reckon there is good enough to conclude that chemtrails, do not exist.

There's ALL of the above, you just choose to ignore it. When you dismis official government documents, you make it real clear what your agenda is.....

What official government documents??

I'm not gonna play your game, your gonna play mine...

If you wont accept a Former FBI Chief then you will NEVER accept ANYTHING.Why?:

Gov. intern/agent dis info guy....

Checkmate!!!!



Former FBI Chief, Ted L. Gunderson, makes a statement regarding the chemtrail "death dumps", otherwise know as air crap, on January 12, 2011. Ted says the following: "The death dumps, otherwise known as chemical trails, are being dropped and sprayed throughout the United States and England, Scotland, Ireland, and Northern Europe. I have personally seen them not only in the United States, but in Mexico and in Canada. Birds are dying around the world. Fish are dying by the hundreds of thousands around the world. This is genocide. This is poison. This is murder by the United Nations. This element within our society that is doing this must be stopped. I happen to know of two of the locations where the airplanes are that dump this crap on us. Four of the planes are out of the Air National Guard in Lincoln, Nebraska. And, the other planes are out of Fort Sill, Oklahoma. I personally have observed the planes that were standing still in Nebraska - Lincoln, Nebraska - at the Air National Guard. They have no markings on them. They are huge, bomber-like airplanes with no markings. This is a crime: a crime against humanity, a crime against America, a crime against the citizens of this great country. The must be stopped. WHAT IS WRONG WITH CONGRESS? This has an affect on their population, and their people, and their friends, and their relatives, and themselves. What's wrong with them? What's wrong with the pilots who are flying these airplanes and dumping this crap, this poison, on their own families? Somebody has to do something about it. Somebody in Congress has to step forward and stop it now. Thank you. I'm Ted Gunderson."

He wasn't an FBI chief - he was head of the FBI Las Angeles Station - still a high position - and he was interviewed for het position of director, but didnt' get it. It doesnt' help to make false claims about his position.

He also believes children have been shipped to Washington for Satanic and sex abuse, death camps in the USA, etc - eg see here.

His mention of "bombers" at Fort Sill has been discussed at length already on ATS - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Basically he's seen KC-135's of the ANG wing there (IIRC there's 8 of them) and is blaming them for chemtrails all around the world.

He also mentions other airfields that are too short to actually have those a/c based at them at all.

It is bunk.

Sadly he sems to be a clever guy gone off the rails.

My My My why do they all look to the sky...

Chem-trails, con-trails, and snail trails, they all have things in common...

All the questionable chem an con trails are a type of foam, they are filled with alloys that can be magnetically manipulated...

If anyone watches the clouds (foam) expand watch the direction of the winds that follow, then listen to the weather that's created in their paths...

Learn the birth net of HAARP, it was the floating o-zone net over the north west of our country that was to generate o-zone which it did perfectly... Only 1 problem with the o-zone generating 4 football fields in size net, it worked like fly paper and ended up crashing into the sea, then the falling flying debri was really considered weather balloons, which were blimps or small zeppelins..

Hince the birth of HAARP, the knowledge gained before the o-zone generating flying mesh became a problem to our brothers an cousins a far coming into our earths atmosphere who are to blame for Al Gore's film of green house effects an o-zone damage also knocked down the o-zone generating screen because it worked like fly paper to the crafts entering to our north west...

During the o-zone generators life scientist learn-didididid there was another field created with in the o-zone generating frequency, and it was recorded an duplicated, this later became to be able to manipulate alloys electronically and magnetically that had been prior to this not thought of to be attracted by either.

The jet in the 1 picture dumping low to the ground is the fire fighting replacement for the older D.C. 10 fire fighting plane, the planes being seen at high altitudes are droid planes, they are being flown remotely they have no cockpit windshield it's all metal... they spray thousands of gallons of foam growing cloud liquid at a time...

The foam clouds serve two purposes, 1, to manipulate the weather abroad, and secondly to provide cover an a cooling buffer for the entering crafts from abroad... Like whats been said long before me an these facts, don't hate or shoot the messenger they are only the messenger...

For all the chem-trail followers all they have to do is watch television to know when to wear an face mask...What? watch T.V.? Yes watch for the commercials for cough syrup and cold medicines, then start looking up into the air at the amount of small aircraft flying around, their not there to get students their flying hours for a pilots license I can assure yall of that, they are the ones filling the air with bacteria's...

But what do I know I've only been watching this for 30 plus years on both sides of the country, just another voluntary caring bean counter? Bwahhhhhh ha ha, yeah right... I'm referring to the cold medicine commercials an the small low flying aircraft, the o-zone mesh, an HAARP are rather new to the corporations arsenal so to speak

So for all the chem trail folk an con trail folk? Try following the path of the growing clouds from the jets, and you'll see that havoc and destruction the corporation is dumping on the countries men and women...

As for crop circles, visitors crafts, politics, an other matters of facts? lets just say To Be Continued....

Just remember yall the 1st hundred years is the hardest, after that it's a piece of cake, life that is... :-)

Okay Mr. F.B.I. you were employed by the corporation of this betrayed nation and your still blowing smoke up everyone's cah-zooooo..... I do have to admit your messenger act is nicely frantic, ramblin, and man-a-key..... But, Bwahhhhhhhh ha ha, heeeee he he, you know once your in the corporate family you can't get out or leave, so now, tell the truth!!! who put ya up to this???

It's okay, you know they know that we all know, ya know???

How does it feel to be a mole amongst the people who your employer the corporation has spent the past 179 years betraying... Like it was pointed out the planes, and airports don't mix or match...

Same ole Same ole, shell an pea shuffle...

I can't wait to read your next smoke job...

Now they're spraying foam ?
Oh Boy.

In 1997, Edward Teller co-authored a white paper, “Prospects for physics-based modulation of global change”, where he advocated the large-scale introduction of metal particulates into the upper atmosphere to apply an effective “sun screen”. A subsequent series of tests to create a polymarised and ionised mixture of certain metals, including aluminum, barium, thorium and selenium, among other contents, was perfected and tested in US facilities. A joint public-private operation, initially called “Cloverleaf”, was operationalised and subsequently supported by US state and federal weather modification legislature.

Guess Teller is a half a nut job too?

Well now why would one get the crazy idea that they were using things like aluminum, barium?

Teller

Teller

Throughout the continental US, dozens of tanker and other aircraft are daily applying thousands of gallons of aerosol nano-particulates that serve several objectives, including the purported ability to reflect UV radiation. Similar operations are being conducted in Canada and parts of Europe.

Nano, humm isn't that about the size of your brains?
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Matt Andersson, President, Indigo Aerospace, Chicago, IL, US

Geo-engineering trial follows in US slipstream

the UK may be conducting a trial to test the feasibility of eventually injecting particulate matter into the atmosphere to cool terrestrial temperatures, but the US has been in full swing at it for nearly a decade. Dozens of aerospace, defence and technical companies like ours have been advising into the initiative for many years the US has been in full swing at it for nearly a decade.

Opps let that whole DECADE thing slip I guess?

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Here's an interesting image....... Wonder who might be involved?


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Tell your bosses/handlers that way to much info is finding it's way into the MSM. They might ought to tighten up...

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More info for the noobs.... These guys are handling you dis-info freaks quite nicely, they don't need my help...

25 flags and a pile of stars.......
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by GoKill

Well now why would one get the crazy idea that they were using things like aluminum, barium?

Teller

Teller

Neither of those papers mention barium, and quite a chunk of the papers are about putting particles in space.

Teller is a late-comer. Putting particles in space or the upper atmosphere as a sun shield has been suggested for over 50 years. It's quite possibly something that might be done in the future. What's lacking is any evidence that they are actually doing it.

en.wikipedia.org...

The idea goes back at least to Hoyle (1957)[7] and was expanded on by Kahle and Deirmendjian (1973) of Rand Corporation.[8]
As early as 1974, Russian expert Mikhail Budyko suggested that if global warming became a problem, we could cool down the planet by burning sulfur in the stratosphere, which would create a haze. Paul Crutzen suggests that this would cost 25 to 50 billion dollars per year. It would, however, increase the environmental problem of acid rain.[9][10][11] However, this is now believed to be a minor side effect.[12]
A preliminary study by Edward Teller and others in 1997 presented the pros and cons of various relatively "low-tech" proposals to mitigate global warming through scattering/reflecting sunlight away from the Earth via insertion of various materials in the upper stratosphere, low earth orbit, and L1 locations.

There are (open) government reports on it dating back to 1965:
www.nap.edu...

In November of 1965, the Environmental Pollution Panel of the President’s Science Advisory Council (PSAC) for the first time informed a president of the United States about the threats posed by increasing atmospheric CO2 concentrations. Their report stated:

"The climatic changes that may be produced by the increased CO2 content could be deleterious from the point of view of human beings. The possibilities of bringing about countervailing climatic changes therefore need to be thoroughly explored. A change in the radiation balance in the opposite direction to that which might result from the increase of atmospheric CO2 could be produced by raising the albedo, or reflectivity, of the earth (PSAC, 1965)."

You also linked, as evidence, to a thread about preliminary field trials which were the first ever trails. This hardly suggests it's been going on at full scale for years.

Welllll Now isn't that speeeeeeeee-shullllllll, so as for moisture? con-trails? an planes in the desert? where's the convectional moisture coming from in the desert, you know that place known as the bottom of the older sea, now dry???? I'd love to pull something nice from one of the dry lake beds to mount on the wall... Bwahhhhhhh ha ha

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters


According to the chemtrailers:

Every plane in the sky is spraying
Only secret military jets are spraying
Planes have special spraying devices installed
Additives to the fuel are the source
contrails can only last seconds
A contrail lasting more than a few minutes can only be a deadly chemical cloud

As an absolute chemtrail believer I have to agree with you. The thing is, we do NOT know what those trails contain therefore we have no right to assume and jump to the conclusion and use the word 'chemtrails'.

Personally I call them non-contrails. I liken this problem to seeing a UFO (and clearly, it is unidentified craft) and calling, assuming and concluding it is an alien space craft from another planet. You can't take one fact (unidentified) and make a conclusion based on vision.

And that is the ONE mistake chemtrail observers are doing and believe me, I call them out on it at every opportunity. Because in your innocent fight for truth, you're opening up an avenue for the debunkers to over-take and win your argument.

So do yourself, other observers and me a favor, quit calling, assuming and filing all these trails under the chemtrail file. For all we know they could be dumping say......metals. Then, you'd be wrong just on technicality alone.


We KNOW they are NOT contrails/water vapors for we stopped drinking that kool-aid for a while now! We know that. That's a given. But like I said, to all my fellow chemtrail believers: please stop opening yourself up to ridicule because after all, your intentions are honorable!

Originally posted by ZeroTollerance
Welllll Now isn't that speeeeeeeee-shullllllll, so as for moisture? con-trails? an planes in the desert? where's the convectional moisture coming from in the desert, you know that place known as the bottom of the older sea, now dry???? I'd love to pull something nice from one of the dry lake beds to mount on the wall... Bwahhhhhhh ha ha

Convectional moisture?

there's plenty of moisture in upper air masses that blow around the world - it doesn't have to "evaporate upwards" from the desert to get there!

The fact that it is hot and dry at ground level is pretty much irrelevant to what hte conditions are at high altitude - excpet generally for the "lapse rate" - the rate at which temperature decreases with altitude in the tropopause - which is about 2 deg C per 1000 feet.