OP/ED: Fingerprinted On Entry.

I expect that any ecomnomic impact we might suffer from the lack of extra-national tourism is probably offset completely by the number of Americans who perhaps would have vacationed in Europe or elsewhere abroad, but will stay in the US now due to the fact that the US is so hated (or so we're constantly told) everywhere else.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Perhaps you should get to NZ from the UK a different way if you are uncomfortable with our procedures. Instead of going through the US, why don't you just go the other direction and take a connecting flight from one of the peaceful Islamic nations or those nice friendly people in China or Russia?

Since apparently everyone else in the world hates the US anyway, why would you want to fly through here? Since we are supposedly the source of all the evil in the world, why would you want to put yourself in our power by flying through our airspace or using our airport facilities?

I guess I just don't get it.

What if there is no choice?

My sister was invited to go to NZ and the Massey University payed for the trip and made arangements.
Its only natural that they arange for the cheapest way to travel there.

My sister has no choice but to take the ticket she is given.
She has a nice salery, but she isn't making millions ya know ...

Moving to a totaly different country half way across the world costs #loads, you have to buy a house and everything that goes in a house, you need to get a car if you need to be mobile and need to pay gas.

Noone is AGAINST THE US for crying out loud, but alot of people are against the current ways of the US goverment.

As I said, I worked for Staples, a huge US company, I spent time in the US, enjoyed it to the fullest. As someone who's been online for 12 years, I know a whole lot of people in the US and some of them are as close as friends can be.

I love the american people but I sencerely dislike the ways of the US goverment and its actions these days.

2003 PROFILE OF OVERSEAS TRAVELERS TO THE U.S. - INBOUND
REPORTED FROM: SURVEY OF INTERNATIONAL AIR TRAVELERS

RESIDENCE OF TRAVELERS TO THE U.S.: (1) ARRIVALS (2) Percent of TOTAL OVERSEAS ARRIVALS
TOTAL OVERSEAS 18,026,213 100.0%
Western Europe 8,294,083 46.0%
United Kingdom 3,936,112 21.8%
Germany 1,180,212 6.5%
France 688,887 3.8%
Italy 408,633 2.3%
Netherlands 373,690 2.1%
Spain 284,031 1.6%
Ireland 254,320 1.4%
Switzerland 230,042 1.3%
Sweden 211,386 1.2%
Belgium 151,069 0.8%
Eastern Europe 344,594 1.9%
Caribbean 998,266 5.5%
Bahamas 253,229 1.4%
Jamaica 159,484 0.9%
Dominican Republic 153,019 0.8%
South America 1,522,191 8.4%
Brazil 348,945 1.9%
Venezuela 284,423 1.6%
Colombia 280,259 1.6%
Peru 154,324 0.9%
Argentina 150,719 0.8%
Central America 655,841 3.6%
El Salvador 177,240 1.0%
Guatemala 151,891 0.8%
Asia (Far East) 5,003,261 27.8%
Japan 3,169,682 17.6%
South Korea 617,573 3.4%
India 272,161 1.5%
Peoples Rep. of China/Hong Kong 271,438 1.5%
Taiwan 238,999 1.3%
Oceania 524,599 2.9%
Australia 405,698 2.3%
Middle East 447,112 2.5%
Israel 249,034 1.4%
Africa 236,266 1.3%

tinet.ita.doc.gov...

tinet.ita.doc.gov...

And those are the statistics under the Clinton administration, prior the terror attack and the security measures:

RESIDENCE OF TRAVELERS TO THE U.S.: (1) ARRIVALS PERCENT OF TOTAL OVERSEAS ARRIVALS
TOTAL OVERSEAS 24,194,000 100%
Western Europe 10,007,000 41%
United Kingdom 3,721,000 15%
Germany 1,994,000 8%
France 978,000 4%
Italy 580,000 2%
Netherlands 473,000 2%
Switzerland 410,000 2%
Spain 328,000 1%
Sweden 292,000 1%
Belgium 241,000 1%
Ireland 217,000 1%
Austria 188,000 1%
Eastern Europe 382,000 2%
Caribbean 1,189,000 5%
Bahamas 319,000 1%
Jamaica 214,000 1%
Dominican Republic 191,000 1%
South America 2,831,000 12%
Brazil 941,000 4%
Argentina 503,000 2%
Venezuela 488,000 2%
Colombia 318,000 1%
Chile 179,000 1%
Central America 564,000 2%
Asia (Far East) 7,756,000 32%
Japan 5,368,000 22%
South Korea 747,000 3%
Taiwan 443,000 2%
Peoples Rep. of China/Hong Kong 432,000 2%
India 173,000 1%
Oceania 680,000 3%
Australia 501,000 2%
New Zealand 161,000 1%
Middle East 552,000 2%
Israel 260,000 1%
Africa 234,000 1%

Sidenote: While travel from nearly all countries to the USA decreased, travel from the UK to the US have increased.

The average total trip expenditures per person are $2,844.

Multiplied with 3,936,112 visitors from Britain the US would loose about $11.194.302.528.

Anyway, while we can expect the tourist rate to decrease it won't affect the US tourism industry in a way it really hurts.


One thing is for sure - the US isn't getting more popular by that.


What I can't understand is the Americans jumping the "then don't visit my country" train. Just because we criticise that stupid action of your government? Oh come on, no more arguments?

I can understand a lot of the security measures that took place but officials already stated that those biometric measures wouldn't have prevented 9/11 and terrorism in general won't be harder at all.

FYI: Brazil already took discriminating measures for US tourists that are travelling into the country.

@John Bull1

Very very interesting read. I noticed that Britains are becoming more and more obsessed with security on my last visits but monitoring your own friends - that's a whole new dimension of paranoia.
Good you dropped them from your invite list and hopefully from your friend list

[edit on 20-8-2004 by shoo]

Top news- The UK government has decided new policies for visitors.

After each visitor has succesfully completed background checks, they will then recieve a tattoo barcode allowing them to travel in and around the UK.

But seriously, I find this over the top to have fingerprints taken.

I had booked flights to Florida for my family this November. I am however now going to cancel our visit. You may think I am over reacting, but I think this is ridiculous and there are many other places that are less paranoid to visit. I think we may now go to Canada, a beautiful place that I have yet to visit.

Whats next, DNA samples taken?

Originally posted by shoo
[Very very interesting read. I noticed that Britains are becoming more and more obsessed with security on my last visits but monitoring your own friends - that's a whole new dimension of paranoia.
Good you dropped them from your invite list and hopefully from your friend list

You goto reread his opening thread Shoo, he said it was fictional :p

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Dispite your personal attack, I stand by my opinion. If you don't like the US, then don't come here. If you don't like our procedures, then don't put yourself in a position where you can be affected by them. Getting you from the UK to NZ safely and in comfort for your holiday is not really our concern at the moment.

Have a nice flight...

Personal attack? What did you call your remarks aimed at me?
I never said I didn't like the USA - but with your attitude I could almost start to form that opinion - but wait.... That's what you want isn't it? because then you would be right.
For God's sake, all I want to do is go on friggin holiday to NZ, I never said I wanted to come to America, I never asked to and it is down to the travel company who decide which route is best for them at the time we want to go.

What about the incident with the 'musicians' - they couldn't search more than two of them because it's 'racist' - but a normal law abiding citizen with no 'dodgy' connections can be subjected to harsh treatment for no real apparant reason?

I havn't bothered to read you other posts, and I'm sure they are all very good - but your response to my comments to Matrix appeared to be a rather personal attack for no reason. While I appreciate that you, like us, are having to take more extreme measures in order to protect yourselves, I would have thought that a 4 hour interrogation causing someone to miss their flight is rather extreme in the circumstances. While it makes me slightly uncomfortable having to give biometric information just to pass through a country, I have no problem as such with it as I can understand the need.. I

I understand your frustration in peoples attitude towards your country, but please do not start attacking people for no reason because you can't take it out on the people that deserve it - the terrorists.

I did not blame or attack anyone in what I originally said, least of all America, I just feel that maybe measures are taken too extremely in the wrong situations sometimes and not in the right ones....

I'm sorry it upsets you so much and I wish I could do something to help, but directing aggression towards your allies is not going to help anything, and will only result, I fear, in re-inforcing narrowminded, negative ideas towards good, honest American people in general.

I'd just like to add:

I would be a mega hypocrite if I actually said I hated the USA:

1) I'm always watching TV shows and Films - 95% of them are American - without America I would watch no TV.

2) I am partly American - My grandfather was American/Italian. I'm actually English/French/American/Italian. (Born and bred English though)

3) I'm always on this board, a mainly American board, most things on the Internet, that I look at anyway, are based in America.

Geez I dunno why I feel this need to prove I don't hate America anyway but there you go!

EDIT -

I'm a Mongrel!!!!!

[edit on 20-8-2004 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by thematrix
You goto reread his opening thread Shoo, he said it was fictional :p

I first thought it was made up but didn't find a comment on it in his thread. Oh well, I should stop reading italicized. Shame on me.

John Bull 1....I went out of my way to say I wasn't attacking you or saying you hated America or anything, and you got offended, I don't know how. However
""""Well as I said in my first post 4 million Britons visit the U.S.A alone every year and if you don't think that is going to have any impact on your economy then you are seriously misimformed. """""

Thats true, but it's NOTHING compared to our own travel, I'm sorry. In a country with only 49 milion people, that's alot of traveling, but it's just a drop in the bucket here. We could get that back in our own people traveling easy. Our airlines are already "hurt" by oil prices, the marginal addition of visitors from England saves no one. I find it sad I even have to respond to this, when i stated your comment was just an example of a common opinion, and not a personal reflection on you.


"""""Perhaps it's just that we don't like being fingerprinted or watching our children being fingerprined and having no idea what the imformation is going to be used for or how long it's going to be kept. """""

If you think the U.S. govt. can't type your name in a computer and get everyhting about you including fingerprints, address, phone number etc. your seriously under-estimating our relationship with your country, so I wouldn't worry about the fingerprint that takes 3 seconds at the airport to hunt you forever. Again this is about everyone NOT JUST YOU, this isn't an attack, I'll say again.

""""And if you really are so ill imformed as to believe it will make no difference then I'd say keep those blinkers on because when you the tax payer are bailing out your airlines and other industries dependent on visitors you won't want to know about that either. """""

The only buisness that are made for tourists are snowglobe makers and the guys that sell little statue of liberties to tourists, and there not American, there from Mexico, so we'll be fine. I have not been able to find records for what are visitors pull in money wise, but I've been to almost every major U.S. city and I would say its 90 - 93% American tourist's that support those supposed industries. Of course that can't be exact since I haven't talked to everyone there, but tourists stick out, as they do in other countries. So once again, this isn't an attack on foreigners, John Bull 1, England, GB or there subsidies. I would like to go to England myself and watch a Newcastle United game, my favorite foreign soccer team. Criticizing America or policies does not mean you hate America or are un-American, we need to remmember that. On a sepperate note, has anyone gone through the gaijin card process in Japan? How was it?


"Edited for spelling"





[edit on 8-20-2004 by Ruggeder]

Just some clarification.

UK=population around 60 million.

No the U.S can't get my fingerprints.In the UK you have to be arrested before having fingerprints taken and as I have never been arrested my fingerprints aren't on record just like the vast majority of Britons.

Yep that's correct, sadly I have been arrested in the past for a minor offence, so they have my fingerprints, photograph and DNA on file. (All taken as standard now) - hence why I am not bothered too much about the security measures at the airport - they've already got it. Like I said, I just don't like the idea of an 'interrogation' and missing my flight.
Especially when people who are more likely to be involved in terrorist activity, like the incident the other week, can't be searched and interrogated for fear of being 'racist'.

These sort of things, UK ID cards, etc bother me more for other people's benefit anyway.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by AgentSmith]

Ok here we go
1) The fact that someone is a britsh citizen does not mean they can not also be a terrorist.
2) The reason that the fingerprinting has to be done on arrival and not during the Visa request phase is that only when you arrive do we know we are getting your fingerprints. Many of the criminals who enter the U.S. do so on false visas or under somone elses visa. What good does it do to fingerprint person A if person B enters the U.S. under person A's visa?
3) I would rather lose all tourism and the money it brings into our economy than ever see another 9/11, If I have to choose between keeping people like johnbull1 happy and pissing them off, losing money and being safe guess what I will choose.

Vsiting the U.S. is a privilege not a right.

The privilege to be monitored, spent money and bring business? Hm, I think you mixed something up.

Moving to the USA can be considered a privilege but coming to the USA for travel or business is not a privilege but a gift from Us to the USA.
I hope you get it.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by shoo]

shoo - A non american being allowed to vsit the U.S. is a privalege just as my abillity to visit the U.K. is a privalege extended to me by the government of the U.K. It is not a right. ny soverign government can at any time close thier borders to anyone, or any group of people for any reason.

The point I was making is ththat many criminals (not just terrorists) enter the U.S. who are citizens of the U.K., germany, australia, etc. The fact that you are a citizen of a country whose government is an lly of the U.S. government does not mean that you personally are not a criminal, anymore than my being a U.S. citizen means that I am not a criminal. One of the reasons 9/11 happened is because of failures at INS to enforce existing Visa laws. If putting you through a little delay will make my country safer then I support it. I agree that the system needs to be efficient, and that it must be done politely, but I for one think any non-U.S. citizen who enters the U.S. should be photographed, fngerprinted and have DNA samples taken. You are guests in our country, and we have every right to keep track of where you are and what you are doing. You are not citizens of this country, you do not have the rights of citizens of this country, and you should not expect them. I live in a country other than America and I do what the government of that country tells me I must do to stay. I don't always agree and sometimes I think thier policies are ludicrous but its the price I pay for being a guest in that country. To coplain about it would be stupid, I'm not a citizen and I have no say whatsoever in what the citizens and government of this country does. I have no right to judge thier policies because ITS NOT MY COUNTY. the only person I have a right to judge is me and the only country whos policies I have a say in is the U.S. So stop bitching about what we tell you to do when you are a guest in our country and accept that you have no say in the matter whatsoever and no right to judge what laws we pass. If you feel its too invasive dont come to the U.S. and if you do want to visit the accept that this is what you have to do to visit this country.
As for the loss of tourism I don't see it beng a big deal, most people will grumble and bitch about the screenings but they will still come to the U.S., those that don't IMHO will be a very small percentage and won't much be missed.

Many criminals from the UK, Germany and other Allies? What world are you living in? Cared to read some statistics?!

By the way, you didn't understand my point explaining the difference between privilege and gift. Would have wondered me anyway.

Prevention is better than cure and all the US is trying to do is prevent another 9/11 or Oklahoma.

If these measures had been brought in sooner whats the likelihood of either of those 2 events occuring, I'll take a stab in the dark, I reckon they would had a 100% chance of occuring and that your kidding yourselves if you believe you are going to stop something similar happening again, using DNA or fingerprinting, you guys will have to remind me about the Oklahoma Bombing, what part of the Middle East did Timothy McVeigh come from.

So, 50% of your major terrorist attacks have actually been home grown, the other 50% were grown in foreign lands using US foreign policy as it's fuel, but that will never be acknowledged.

Refusing to recognise the reasons for, not only those you deem enemies, but those you also deem allies, attacking or hating or critisizing you, is considered ignorant and arrogant, and I anticipate responses of that very nature.

If you choose to play devils advocate in arguing the validity of the aforementioned security issues, without addressing the root cause or reasoning for the terroist attacks, then the freedom you believe you enjoy is the freedom you deserve, once your government has taken it, don't expect them to give it back.

[edit on 23-8-2004 by Koka]

I lived in Britain for 4 years from 1995 through 1999. I was denied a checking account by Natwest because "you are an american, you could be a drug dealer, a murderer, or anything". (Actual quote). I was required by law to travel upon my entry to the ARO (Alien Registration Office) where I received a little green book that had my picture in it, address, occupation, etc AT ALL TIMES OR FACE DETENTION!!!!!!!! Whenever I changed my address, I had to go BACK to the ARO, have my picture taken AGAIN and have my book updated. I could not do this by mail.

Why is it not facism when the Brits do it? Has anyone ever driven across the border between Scotland and Britain, there must be 50 cameras photographing every license plate in visible light, UV, IR etc. The Metropolitan police in London can track a vehicle AUTOMATICALLY upon entering London anywhere in the city. London has the most Closed Circuit cameras of ANY CITY ON EARTH. If you are going to be upset about a violation of your Human Rights, you should write the Home Office!!!!!

[edit on 23-8-2004 by wesramm]

Hey John,

Nothing personal but stay home! I actually wish the US would become more isolationist (not total) so this does not surprise me. Id die for England though, so dont get me wrong! I've fought next to Brits nearly all my adult life starting at 22 in Desert Storm on through today. Maybe US and Briton should not do this to each other, but for now both are still soveriegn nations and you have your laws and we have ours while similar they are not the same.

You guys playing our National anthem after 911 was the most tear jerk moment of my life. I never felt so much honor toward another nation.

Anyway untill Islam matures into a civilized religion through out the world, things like this will be nessasary. The world can handle a few nutcase religious fanatics but right now we have entire nations sponsoring/tolerating a murderous form of Islam. That makes for 1000's of nutcases that must be tracked and watched closely.

I am just glad that Christianity, allready, for the most part, became civilized, or else we really would be having armegedon right now. Christianity has only a few nutcases at the moment!

X

Originally posted by wesramm
I lived in Britain for 4 years from 1995 through 1999. I was denied a checking account by Natwest because "you are an american, you could be a drug dealer, a murderer, or anything". (Actual quote). I was required by law to travel upon my entry to the ARO (Alien Registration Office) where I received a little green book that had my picture in it, address, occupation, etc AT ALL TIMES OR FACE DETENTION!!!!!!!! Whenever I changed my address, I had to go BACK to the ARO, have my picture taken AGAIN and have my book updated. I could not do this by mail.

Why is it not facism when the Brits do it? Has anyone ever driven across the border between Scotland and Britain, there must be 50 cameras photographing every license plate in visible light, UV, IR etc. The Metropolitan police in London can track a vehicle AUTOMATICALLY upon entering London anywhere in the city. London has the most Closed Circuit cameras of ANY CITY ON EARTH. If you are going to be upset about a violation of your Human Rights, you should write the Home Office!!!!!

[edit on 23-8-2004 by wesramm]

Agreed, Britain is indeed becoming a facist state, it has been for decades, especially after Thatcher got in. The cameras you see on the roads between Scotland and England will be the same cameras you see on roads throughout Britain, they're called speed cameras, and the ones in London, those are for congestion charging. Not that they aren't accessible to the authorities for security aswell, but lets not pretend it's the same as fingerprinting or DNA samples. Britain is no better than the states, as the states are no better than any other country in the world, but the US admin seems to think the US is above all other countries, now why would they believe that?

Originally posted by Kriz_4
But seriously, I find this over the top to have fingerprints taken.

Its not that over the top really. As a registered Nurse here in California I had to have my fingerprints taken for licensure. What is the worry? 911 changed things forever. The old days of travel are gone. Are we safer? no not yet, but tighter security at airports can't hurt.