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Let's talk about it! Psalm 22

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posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 05:52 PM
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Yes, ladies and gentlemen. We are going to review one of the most famous and popular verses from the bible. The 'Crucifixion' verse. Christians for generations have used this verse as a way to prove that there were prophecies about Jesus in the Hebrew bible. But how right are they? Is this the true and correct translations of the verse? There is no faith without questioning. What do you think of my sources I used? Do you agree or disagree with me?


Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. (KJV)


I would have to respectfully disagree. Since this is one of many examples of verses being taken out of context.
Here Rabbi Tovia Singer is answering a question by a Christian. The individual asks Tovia Singer about the verse and why hasn't he made the connection to the verse and Jesus.


T o understand the brazen manner in which Christendom tampered with the Jewish scriptures, let’s examine the verse that you insist “proves” that Jesus is the messiah. Psalm 22:16 in the King James Version (KJV) reads, Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. It isn’t difficult to understand why Christians are so confident that this verse contains a clear reference to Jesus’ crucifixion. “This Old Testament prophecy could only be foretelling Jesus’ unique death on the cross.” “Of whom other than Jesus could the Psalmist be speaking?,” missionaries ask. They insist that the Bible could not be referring to any other person in history but the man that bore the marks of the Cross.



Apparently, you were so impressed by this argument that you wondered how a rabbi like myself could miss this reference to Jesus’ crucifixion. Paradoxically, well-educated Jews are utterly repelled by the manner in which the church rendered the words of Psalm 22:17.




Although in a Jewish Bible this verse appears as Psalm 22:17, in a Christian Bible it appears as 22:16. So as not to create confusion, I refer to this controversial verse as Psalm 22:17 throughout this article.



To understand how Christian translators rewrote the words of King David, let’s examine the original Hebrew words of this verse with a proper translation


Source
J4J Psalm 22
Psalm proof text


For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet



Notice that the English translation from the original Hebrew does not contain the word “pierced.” The King James version deliberatelymistranslated the Hebrew word kaari (כָּאֲרִי') as “pierced,” rather than “like a lion,” whereby drawing the reader to a false conclusion that this Psalm is describing the Crucifixion. The Hebrew word 'כָּאֲרִי' does not mean pierced but plainly means “like a lion. The end of Psalm 22:17, therefore, properly reads “like a lion they are at my hands and my feet.” Had King David wished to write the word “pierced,” he would never have used the Hebrew word kaari. Instead, he would have written either daqar or ratza, which are common Hebrew words in the Jewish Scriptures. These common words mean to “stab” or “pierce.” Needless to say, the phrase “they pierced my hands and my feet” is a not-too-ingenious Christian contrivance that appears nowhere in Tanach.



For example, the identical word kaari is also found in Isaiah 38:13. In the immediate context of this verse King Hezekiah is singing a song for deliverance from his grave illness. In the midst of his supplication he exclaims in Hebrew שִׁוִּ֤יתִי עַד־בֹּ֙קֶר֙ כָּאֲרִי ” Notice that the last word in this phrase (moving from right to left) is the same Hebrew word kaari that appears in Psalm 22:17. In this Isaiah text, however, the King James Version correctly translates these words “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion...” As mentioned above, Psalm 22:17 is the only place in all of the Jewish Scriptures that any Christian Bible translates kaari as “ pierced.”



The reckless Bible tampering that was done to this verse becomes obvious with only a cursory reading of the entire 22 Psalm. Throughout this nd chapter, King David routinely uses an animal motif to describe his enemies. The Psalmist’s poignant references to the “dog” and “lion” are, therefore, common metaphors employed by the Psalmist. In fact, David repeatedly makes reference to the “dog” and “lion” both before and after Psalm 22:17. For King David, these menacing beasts symbolize his bitter foes who continuously sought to destroy him. This metaphor, therefore, sets the stage for the moving theme of this chapter. Although David’s predicament at times seems hopeless, this faithful king relied on God alone for his deliverance. As the Psalmist eagerly looks to God for deliverance from his adversaries, he conveys the timeless message that it is the Almighty alone Who can save the faithful in times of tribulation. Let’s examine a number of verses in this chapter that immediately surround Psalm 22:17 as they appear in the King James Version.



As mentioned above, it is obvious when reading this larger section of the 22 Psalm that King David nd is using an animal motif — most commonly lions — as an animated literary device, in order to describe his pursuers and tormentors. This striking style is pervasive in this section of the Bible. In fact, each and every time the word “lion” appears in the Book of Psalms, King David is referring to a metaphoric lion, rather than a literal animal. For example, in the 17 Psalm King David appeals to the Almighty to rescue him from the hands th of his enemies, the “lion.” Bear in mind, an examination of the 17 Psalm is of great relevance to th our study because in many respects Psalm 17 and 22 are sister chapters, both with regard to their literary motif and driving theme. In the 17 Psalm, he is seeking deliverance from his adversaries th as in Psalm 22. In Psalm 17:8-12, he pleads with God for deliverance from the “lion,” as he cries out, Hide me under the shadow of Your wings, from the wicked who oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about. They are enclosed in their own fat; with their mouths they speak proudly. They have now compassed us in our steps; they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth, like a lion that is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places



Fearing that he has been abandoned by God, David implores the Almighty to answer his supplications for help, mitigating any question as to the identity of the Psalmist. It is explicitly clear from the very first verse of this chapter that the person speaking is King David. “Lord, how long wilt thou look on? Rescue my soul from their destruction, my darling from the lions.” Moreover, missionaries are confronted with another stunning problem in their effort to interpellate the words of this Psalm into a first century crucifixion story. In the simplest terms, this text that Christians eagerly quote is not a prophecy, nor does it speak of any future event. This entire Psalm, as well as Psalm 23:1-3 that follows, contains a famous personal prayer in which King David cried out to God from the depths of his pain and anguish – a fugitive from his family and former friends who betrayed him. Accordingly, the stirring monologue in this chapter is all in the first person. Fearing that he has been abandoned by God, David implores the Almighty to answer his supplications for help, mitigating any question as to the identity of the psalmist. It is explicitly clear from the very first verse of this chapter that the person speaking is King David.




posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:08 PM
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Psalm 22 is not the only messianic prophesy in scripture. I personally think Isaiah 53 is the strongest messianic prophesy in the O.T. Just my opinion.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 


Well I respectfully disagree with you. Since we do see the bible and text differently. I have said this numerous times to many, many Christians and non-Jews. A lot of it is how we see it. I view it as it should be; while Christians apply it to Jesus.


The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in PREViously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.


Yes, I have come across Christians who view Jesus as Israel. It's up to you how you view it.
Source



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

Isn't Israel commonly referred to in the feminine in scripture? I cannot connect how this refers to anyone but Jesus. I do not contend to be an expert in this subject but it just seems obvious to me.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 


Umm, Psalm 22 just got proven by the OP that it is indeed not a messianic prophecy.

The lion AND pierced do not mean the same thing. I guess if you want to disprove you need a hebrew reading person to translate and double check the existence in the Hebrew scripture.

I am coming to like Robert Morning Sky's Terra Papers more and more.

While we are at it can we discuss Genesis 1:26...And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...

The more Old testament I read, the more I see a fake god...or beings with God like powers. Also, now evidence of tampering...Yay....I personally like the Book of Enoch. It should have been in the Bible IMO.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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Ok, the verse from psalm 22 is no good for christians anyway, even with the KJV perverted translation, because guess what, Jesus was one of the many many thousands of people crucified by the Romans.

And you cannot use the OT to prove Jesus is divinity, for the simple fact that the OT clearly states that G-d's covenant with the Israelites is eternal and will not be replaced by a new one any prophet pushing a new religion is only there to test the Hebrew's resolve.

Oh and most importantly, the Jesus story is fraught with SO MANY glaring conrtadictions as to make it silly.

Was G-d married to Mary? No, she was married to Joseph, oh but wait, G-d impregnated her while she was married to another man? Than would make Jesus G-d's bastard son, at BEST.

King of the Jews? In the Jewish tradition the kingship is ONLY inherited from the father, and only if his father is descended directly from David, oh but wait who's JC's dad? oops not king.

I can go on all day..........
edit on 22-8-2011 by dashen because: Spelling and whatnots



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 


Think about it. Why would Israel suffer so much throughout history? Past, Present, and Future. Look at the Jews of the past, the Jews of today, and the Jews of tomorrow. How many are suffering as a result. View this link from Rabbi Tovia Singer. He written a wonderful article on this subject. It's up to you on who the Suffering Servant is in the bible.
OJ Ishaia 53



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:41 PM
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www.iclnet.org...

this is my rebuttal.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by LightAssassin
 


uhhh... proven is a bit of an overstatement I would say.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 


Well you need to understand what the Messiah concept is in Judaism. You'll be surprised how alien we are with the text. The links I sourced earlier are very different from your source.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by dashen
 


Can I ask? Why do you write 'G-d'?

Robert Morning Sky wrote it this way too.

Also, that was a 'virgin' birth. What really happens is they pluck a spirit straight from the etherical (I think thats the one) realm and plant it straight into an egg. It does the same thing as sperm, as far as I can tell sperm carries the spirit. Which is why self-pleasure for males is against religious law...and spiritual law as far as I can tell.

This is also how they manipulated our genetics. Evolved us.


edit on 22-8-2011 by LightAssassin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by ManOfGod267
 


I hate to tell you this but if lions are at your hands and feet, they arent there to be your friend and they will pierce your hands and feet with those 8 inch fangs. Either way you look at it your hands and feet are getting pierced, so perhaps its a metaphor? The Holy Spirit works wonders when you open your heart to Him and hear Him. Only one person i ever heard of in history being nailed to a cross, everyone else got tied to them.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by LightAssassin
 


I do the same.

We do not write G-d's name in a place where it may be discarded or erased. Treating G-d's name with reverence is a way to give respect to G-d. So even though on a computer the name is not really being erased (and perhaps is not really there in the first place), and "G-d" is only an English term used to translate G-d's holy name, it is in keeping with this respect that I write "G-d" in my emails and on-line articles.

See here buddy ol' pal?

Source



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by ManOfGod267
reply to post by micmerci
 


Well you need to understand what the Messiah concept is in Judaism. You'll be surprised how alien we are with the text. The links I sourced earlier are very different from your source.


The source I provided clearly shows that all of Judaism does not share the same view of the Messiah concept. Your source is just another interpretation of the listed verses and does not conclusively prove anything just as the Christian interpretation does not prove anything either. If either interpretation was proven correct then the other view would fade away.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Like I mention it's how you view it. I wouldn't doubt Jesus was the only person crucified at the time and nailed. If you believe the NT view of Jesus. You could be Muslim or something else and believe Jesus never died or was crucified.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by ManOfGod267
 
If I may jump in here...this appears to come down to a disagreement between the masoretic text and the septuagint.

I am wondering why the 72 jewish scholars who translated the septuagint (pre-'Jesus') would have rendered the hebrew as pierced instead of like a lion? The septuagint is where the King James and most later versions drew this and a good many other verses from.

Have you looked into this at all? I've never really looked too much into the LXX



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by LightAssassin
 


It is a practice by orthodox and observant jews to revere G-d's name, and although the english word is not ours we still do not complete it because among other reasons our current grasp of His name is severly lacking, and we thusly remind ourselves.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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Just because the bible was "tampered" with or mistranslated here or there, does NOT mean that Jesus is not the Christ/Messiah. Are you really going to stand there and call how many thousands of first century christians, and even the disciples themselves liars? I have never heard of any prophet raising the dead, once much less twice. I have never heard of any prophet feeding several thousand people with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. I have never heard of a prophet that could walk on water. So, all those people that saw Christ do this things first hand were merely mistaken to his identity? Keep in mind were not talking about just the disciples witnessing Christ heal, but thousands flocked to Jesus not because he was a prophet, but because he is the CHRIST.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by micmerci

Originally posted by ManOfGod267
reply to post by micmerci
 


Well you need to understand what the Messiah concept is in Judaism. You'll be surprised how alien we are with the text. The links I sourced earlier are very different from your source.


The source I provided clearly shows that all of Judaism does not share the same view of the Messiah concept. Your source is just another interpretation of the listed verses and does not conclusively prove anything just as the Christian interpretation does not prove anything either. If either interpretation was proven correct then the other view would fade away.


You're mistaken. You need to understand the Messiah concept that all Jews agree on. I mean from the most liberal to the most traditional Jew.
The Messiah Judaism 101
The messiah in Judaism RT
J4J Messiah
Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?
Chabad messiah

As you can see here.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by dashen
 


Thankyou very much. I also edited my post.

I am an Ancient Astronaut theorist and I cannot stop finding coincidences EVEN when keeping within the context.




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