Destroying the Past

Why does'nt anyone mention that the Americans are bombing not only the ancient cities such a Babylon, but also destroying the past and places which so much irreplaceable historical value. I find it truly appalling that they are doing it so freely as if it were another place to destroy into ash, that is/was BABYLON! What do we say if one day our children were reading one of the many myths and legends from which originated from the ancient city and asked if they could go see it one day?

Hmm, I'd say its time for someone to take a Perspective Pill.

I'm pretty sure that those released from Hussein's House of Horrors prisons, the women who are no longer being raped by his sons and their henchmen, etc., aren't really concerned. Assuming "Babylon", or the location in which it used to stand, really is being bombed to dust, does it have a huge impact on anyone's life? I'm sorry, maybe I just don't have the right travel brochures, but I don't remember seeing that as a mentioned destination site, much less a popular one.

No, the fact that it has been made more difficult for a lunatic leader to pawn off chemical and biological weapons to the terrorists that would love to use them in Manattan, now, that is the more important thing.

Can you imagine if we had tried to defend the world from Hitler with the weak-kneed attitude of today? We'd all be speaking German today.

Pass the Schnitzle, bitte.

Oh...this is just ultra-rich.

Let's review. These alleged "devout and fanatical" Muslims have holed up in a holy shrine knowing they place it in danger of destruction. WHATEVER!

And then...let's talk about how the Taliban, WITH THE ENTIRE WORLD BEGGING THEM NOT TO, destroyed some of the most ancient and prized Buddhas on earth JUST BECAUSE...that's it, just because - because they had an anthropomorphic face to them.

No deal. Everybody needs to get over this one...RIGHT NOW.

Clearly these people think nothing of these sites. They hide on mosks and ancient ruins becouse they think we won't go after them there. They are cowards of the worst kind. On the on hand they talk about "holy places" and get others all upset about that, yet they hide there and shoot guns and rockets at us......

Yeah why don't these stupid bastards line up and let themselves get killed easily, damn then. Why must they use every way they can think of to save themselves from having 4 ton bombs dropped on their positions. Valiant, heroic 4 ton bombs.


Pfft. We always have claims from the American pro-war side on ATS, saying "well, maybe we DID torture and kill those Iraqis, but war is dirty".

So war is dirty, there's your explanation. They are trying what they can to win.

There are also women and children huddling in that mosque, too, and it's not like there's people hanging out the mosque windows lobbing grenades or firing rifles.

It's their country, and if the mosque is and important part of their religion, and a holy site, then respect it. It's STILL their country, remember you "handed it over" to them? So respect their laws, even if they don't necessarily favor YOU, the invaders.

Unfortunately much of Iraq has already been scorched through centuries of conflict. It is unfortunate that war is helping destroy some possible archiological gold mines but I think that the chances are slim. If you look at history though, it is always written by the winners.

And I don't see why we'd have any incentive to bomb a dead city.

You hang yourself with your own words, Jak.

The fact that the "Freedom Fighters" hide among women and children, endangering their lives, indicates who the real butchers are. The fact that they hide in mosques, preying upon American sense of decency to protect them, is cowardly. Working against a Free Iraq need not even be explained, does it?

By the way, one can certainly attack them in that mosque and not violate internation law, as long as one uses minimum force necessary in attempts to destroy as little of it as possible. We are so concerned about international opinion (code phrase for "the Arabs and certain parts of Europe that hates what America stand for, oui?") we place into jeopardy not only the lives of our troops but also the general mission.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Hmm, I'd say its time for someone to take a Perspective Pill.

I'm pretty sure that those released from Hussein's House of Horrors prisons, the women who are no longer being raped by his sons and their henchmen, etc., aren't really concerned.

There is torture going on by the new Iraqi police and you shouldn't be so quick to speak for the Iraqis. The Iraqi soccer team has already voiced their opinion about the invasion. Even though athletes were tortured by Saddam's sons, one of the players said if he wasn't at the Olympics, he'd be an insurgent in Iraq. That should give you some idea of how the Iraqis feel about what's happening in their country. They may have hated Saddam and wanted him gone but they don't like how things are now.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Assuming "Babylon", or the location in which it used to stand, really is being bombed to dust, does it have a huge impact on anyone's life? I'm sorry, maybe I just don't have the right travel brochures, but I don't remember seeing that as a mentioned destination site, much less a popular one.

Just because you have no interest in sites of great historical and religious importance doesn't mean we shouldn't care about it.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
No, the fact that it has been made more difficult for a lunatic leader to pawn off chemical and biological weapons to the terrorists that would love to use them in Manattan, now, that is the more important thing.

Still trying to push that?
If I remember correctly, the US was the one sponsoring terrorism with Allawi et al. in Iraq.

Can you imagine if we had tried to defend the world from Hitler with the weak-kneed attitude of today? We'd all be speaking German today.

Pass the Schnitzle, bitte.

And everyone knows the entire world should be speaking English instead.

[edit on 22-8-2004 by AceOfBase]

Ever wondered why the 'good guys' are destroying all these ancient relics??? Firstly the Taliban were set up and supported (still are) by the people that they are supposedly fighting, the same with Hussein! Its a game! A land grab and funnily enough the areas in the world that this turmoil is happening are some of the oldest sites of archeology. Are they in a secondary campaign (apart from the land grab/destruction of native peoples and belief) to obliterate the past - their past and using the patsies who sign up for war to do the dirty work for them?? After all these attacks on soverign nations are 'perfectly legal' of course and what better way to wipe out the past than to blow it to bits under the guise of sanctioned national terrorism??

"By the way, one can certainly attack them in that mosque and not violate internation law,"



Get real Thomas, this whole war violates international law, but that doesn't seem to bother the mighty americans

Uh, as a matter of fact, we are not violating international law, that lie has been brought up and shot down more times than can be counted, and I will not bother with it again.

Look here, Ace, I hope you don't mind if I prefer not to do the thoughtless, lazy, "quote a line" crap as you and actually excercise my writing ability. No, you don't mind? Thanks.

As you tell me not to speak on behalf of the Iraqis, I'd suggest you not assume an Iraqi athletes are speaking on behalf of the Iraqi population, either. To do such a thing would be akin to assuming the likes of Michael Moore is speaking on behalf of the American population. But let's look at what you said, there. You said that while athletes were tortured by Hussein's sons, this clown would be an insurgent were he not at the Olympics? There are two glaring problems with that, one involves rationalizing cowardice, and the other a self-mutilating psychosis.

You mention both Iraqi police and Allawi and alleged torture, but as usual, the vicious and brutal beheadings of innocent people by the "freedom fighters" is ignored. So is the fact that the War on Terror led us to that screwed up little country and for very good reason. No, I am not still trying to "push" that, you are still in denial. At the same time of attempting to deny what the whole world knew (until it was convenient to forget at the attempted disgracing of America) you attempt to muddy the water by saying it is implied that the entire world should speak English. I take this as some irrational attempt to say we are after world conquest. This is without lucidity to such an extent that it makes me realize discussing an issue with you is a lesson in futility, therefore, I won't even bother with that.

In my opinion, all or most of the Countries around the world are controlled from behind the scenes. This is probably done through money and international banks, also known as the Illuminati.

I think that maybe those who work behind the scenes are destroying all these ancient historical sites, especially where Babylon once existed, because that is where our civilizations began. This is the same place that our creators landed as well. Maybe those who are destroying such historical places wish to rid humanity's past for some greater purpose. In my opinion, the evil Reptilians, who work behind the scenes of the evil human world leaders, are planning to take over humanity under a one world system. One way to do this is to take away humanitys origins so that humanity remains under control. A person, as an example, who does not have roots established, will be easier to control than a person who is firmly grounded with their true past.

What has been the agenda of those who control humanity been all throughout history? To control people, and it still goes on today, as demonstrated by the destruction of the place where Babylon once existed. Maybe what lies at where Babylon once existed is too destructive to the power of the Roman Church and its product of Christianity.

As to what you would say to your children, I don't know.

I think that certain posters in this topic should think about what they would do if their country was invaded. If there was a building they could go in and know that the invaders would not bomb it then they would go in it.

The insurgents groups cannot compete with with the US occupiers technologically or with brute force so they use cunning, and they play on the enemies weakness. If your country was invaded wouldn't you do whatever you could to defeat the invaders?

I hope that Al-Sadr and the Mehdi army stay in the shrine and repel the US forces. It would send out a strong message to the US that it isn't always wise to f*** around with the people of the Middle East.

Originally posted by Thomas CrowneThe fact that the "Freedom Fighters" hide among women and children, endangering their lives, indicates who the real butchers are. The fact that they hide in mosques, preying upon American sense of decency to protect them, is cowardly. Working against a Free Iraq need not even be explained, does it?

it this the same american sense of decency that is torturing prisoners in guantamano bay and the prisons in Iraq and afganistan?

Originally posted by Thomas CrowneYou mention both Iraqi police and Allawi and alleged torture, but as usual, the vicious and brutal beheadings of innocent people by the "freedom fighters" is ignored

you seem to forget that is exactly what US troops were doing in vietnam and British Troops in Kenya in the 50's

[edit on 22-8-2004 by arnold_vosloo]

[edit on 22-8-2004 by arnold_vosloo]

International Law Aspects of the Iraq War
and Occupation

This sections examines the legality of the 2003 US-UK war on Iraq. Shortly before the outbreak of hostilities, UN Secretary General stated that the use of force without Council endorsement would "not be in conformity with the Charter" and many legal experts now describe the US-UK attack as an act of aggression, violating international law. Experts also point to illegalities in the US conduct of the war and violations of the Geneva Conventions by the US-UK of their responsibilities as an occupying power. The section also looks at wartime violations on the Iraqi side.

taken from: www.globalpolicy.org...

This is a good site examining the legalities of the US led war of aggression in Iraq.


I want to say a word about the UN Resolutions embargoing Iraq and supposedly authorizing the use of force. All of the UN Resolutions were suspect because of what Rep. Gonzalez called in his impeachment resolution the "bribing, intimidating and threatening of others, including members of the UN Security Council." Gonzalez cites the following outright bribes:

Immediately after the November 29 vote in the UN authorizing force, the administration unblocked a $140 million loan for the World Bank to China and agreed to meet with Chinese government officials.
The Soviet Union was promised $7 billion in aid from various countries and shipments of food from the United States.
Zaire was promised forgiveness of part of its debt as well as military assistance.
A $7 billion loan to Egypt was forgiven, a loan the President had no authority to forgive under U.S. law.
Syria was promised that there would be no interference in its Lebanon actions.
Saudi Arabia was promised $12 billion in arms sales.
The U.S., which owes the most money to the U.N., paid off $187 million of its debt immediately after the vote authorizing the use of force.
The administration attempted to coerce Yemen by threatening the cutoff of U.S. funds

taken from: deoxy.org...

Another good site by a commission put together to judge wheather the US violated international treaties and commited war crimes in its invation of Iraq.

How can you say this "lie" has been brought up and shot down. This "lie" has gotten practicaly no mainstream media coverage here in the states, even in the face of world wide demonstrations and dissedence against the war in Iraq.

Just take a look at the people around President Bush and some of the policies and statments that have been made from this administration. It's no secret that most of the Bush administration is made up from the ex-Reagan group. Is it just a coincedence that Reagan imideatly declared a war on terror, which in their words was the "plague of the modern age and a war on civilization itself". At that time it was Nicaragua El Salvador and the rest of the south american bunch that was the big threat that we needed to destroy. And for that the US government became the only government in history that was condemed by the world court for international terrorism. They also would have been condemed by the UN, except for the fact that they can veto UN security resolutions. But how many US citizens know these facts. How often have you seen any of this on the six o'clock news. You simply don't, which proves that we don't live in the democracy that we think we do. In my opinion a democracy is a society in which every voice has an opinion and every opinion has a voice, and we simply don't have that here. But aside from that, the people in government now are basically the same people who were in goverment when we were condemed by the world court and the UN in general assembly meetings. These are the same people, doing the same things, controlling the population by fear. Every one knows Iraq was no threat to the US, as much as Nicaragua was no threat to the US back in 81'. Even the countries in the middle east didn't view Iraq as a threat, they were probably the weakest country in the region. In fact the United States of America is they only country in the world that has a majority of its citizens afraid of Iraq. How can that be, how can the most powerfull country in the world have a population afraid of a second world country like Iraq. I mean, the Iranians aren't even afraid of Iraq, but millions of americans are, this is the biggest joke of the century.

I guess im just ranting now, but anyways, yes the Iraq war is in violation of international laws, and yes the US government should be convicted for war crimes, which incidentally wouldn't be the first time, but will any of this ever happen, sadly no, and that just shows you who rules the world.

good info sp23, I was going to say something similar myself

Hmmm, interesting thing that you bring up here . I think this kinda issue is somewhat ironic, didnt someone once say, those who dont learn from the past are doomed to repeat it ? Kinda ironic that we are indeed wiping out historic sites, which were probally once destroyed by other means back then :S

Still though, If you were to place historic sites over the wellfare of human life, dont you think you are being a little unrealistic, structures can be buiilt and destroyed but life is precious. I guess this is just a price of war.