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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

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posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

"Dispensationlism" isn't a "religion". It's an acknowledgement that God deals differently with the church and with Israel. That God has a different destiny and different plan with Israel and with the church. The church is the "Bride of Christ", Israel is not even though some Jews obviously are in the Body of Christ historically.
In a broad definition, I would probably be able to be labeled a dispensationalist myself, so there seems to be a wide range of where particular people can fall within this definition of a whole range of philosophy. I don't set myself apart as if I am somehow immune to all the philosophising.
I am busy creating my own philosophy but it is just what I think at the moment and don't recommend anyone making a religion out of it. I think people are responsible for figuring this stuff out for themselves and just sitting around listening to someone else's take on it for forty five minutes or an hour a week is not a good substitute.
I am not an exclusionist so much as far as what ideology people have to have to get into heaven but I think a lot of Jews since the time of Jesus are going to have a tough time of it if they know full well the Gospel but choose to ignore it. Jesus said of such that they are condemned already.




posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

What you call "an act of piracy", others call "fulfilled prophecy". She (Israel) was a nation born in a single day, just as the OT prophet said would be.
That is lies in the form of propaganda to make people believe something that is not true. There is a whole mythology of the founding of Israel that if you examine it closely does not hold up. This is all self fulfilled prophecy and only then if you believe the lies.
I remember being shown a movie back when I was 15 years old at a church sponsored function in the school's gym, all about how Israel was all of that. I know better now and that what they have was stolen or provided for by others and if they were not constantly funded from outside they would immediately collapse and cease to exist. That is not a state in my definition of the word. It is a fraud perpetrated on the willfully ignorant.



edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You really don't think the Lord will keep His covenant He made alone with Abraham and His children?
I don't get what you are implying here using the word, Alone, as if this is some sort of qualifier. If you make it so, then you are just trying to avoid the obvious answer that Jesus is the fulfilment.
You are trying to imply that there is some other special agreement that was never satisfied and needs to be by demand of the holders of the promise.
Well too bad, so sad they have no right because they never have and never will hold up their end of the bargain which is a bargain with the Devil which never works out well for anyone who enters into such.


edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

You really don't think the Lord will keep His covenant He made alone with Abraham and His children?
I don't get what you are implying here using the word, Alone, as if this is some sort of qualifier. If you make it so, then you are just trying to avoid the obvious answer that Jesus is the fulfilment.
You are trying to imply that there is some other special agreement that was never satisfied and needs to be by demand of the holders of the promise.
Well too bad, so sad they have no right because they never have and never will hold up their end of the bargain which is a bargain with the Devil which never works out well for anyone who enters into such.


edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I'm talking about the land covenant. Jesus didn't fulfil the land covenant, He isn't dirt. Jesus has also yet to fulfil the Davidic covenant, that He will do upon His return immediately after the sheep and goats judgment.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

What you call "an act of piracy", others call "fulfilled prophecy". She (Israel) was a nation born in a single day, just as the OT prophet said would be.
That is lies in the form of propaganda to make people believe something that is not true. There is a whole mythology of the founding of Israel that if you examine it closely does not hold up. This is all self fulfilled prophecy and only then if you believe the lies.
I remember being shown a movie back when I was 15 years old at a church sponsored function in the school's gym, all about how Israel was all of that. I know better now and that what they have was stolen or provided for by others and if they were not constantly funded from outside they would immediately collapse and cease to exist. That is not a state in my definition of the word. It is a fraud perpetrated on the willfully ignorant.



edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


As if America isn't constantly "funded" from the outside?? Like we wouldn't "collapse"? I hope you're kidding.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I'm talking about the land covenant. Jesus didn't fulfil the land covenant, He isn't dirt. Jesus has also yet to fulfil the Davidic covenant, that He will do upon His return immediately after the sheep and goats judgment.
Is any of that you just said in the Bible?



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:34 PM
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So, about the Tribulation. Is there anyone who does or does NOT think we are in the last days? If not please discuss why you think we are not, and if you do think we are, why do you think so?

I think we are because we are living in dangerous times. Wars running rampant and rumors of wars, famine, world economy going belly up so a one world currency may have to be created, strange weather, increase in earthquakes and other natural disasters. To me, it seems like the entire world has gone crazy.


edit on 23-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Here is something that seems to be a summary of a particular view of the future and I wonder if it sounds familiar to you.

The Premillennialism of C. I. Schofield and J. N. Darby is the idea accepted by the majority of the premillennialists of today. According to this theory, in God's original plan Jesus came to establish an earthly kingdom and reign over the Jews as their Messiah, but he was rejected by them. This caused a change in God's plan, they say, so that He postponed His original idea. Because the Jews rejected Jesus, God decided to establish the Church. They claim that the Church was not a part of God's original plan and that there is no reference to it in the O. T. They believe the church was established to fill the time until Israel would accept Jesus as Messiah. When Israel accepts Jesus, He will return and reign over them as God planned in the beginning. When the church era ends, Christ will return for the faithful. Christ and the faithful will be over the earth for seven years, invisible to the other inhabitants of the earth. (This time is called, by them, the Rapture.) During this time there will be a great tribulation. At the end of three and a half years Christ will descend, with the saints, to judge the nations (and the Antichrist), and to reign for 1000 years on the earth. He will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem, reigning over the Jewish nation and extending His reign over all the world. When this period of 1000 years ends, Satan will be loosed and will lead a rebellion against the Lord and Jerusalem. The Lord will triumph and destroy Satan. In that way the new heaven and new earth will be established here on a renewed earth.
IBS resources
To me, this does not fulfill any promises, by having a thousand years of fulfilment, since by definition it is not forever, so it is just an exercise in futility.


edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .if you do think we are, why do you think so?
The last days started in 1988. There was a trumpet blast by an angel to mark the beginning of it and I was told ahead of time that this would happen, given the date for the occurrence. Not sure why I was told that exactly unless the angel knew that I was the type of person who would years later say something about it. I don't really know what the significance of it is other than I felt impressed twenty years later that the tribulation had begun, meaning that it began in 2008, twenty years after whatever it was that had begun earlier. This probably is completely meaningless to anyone other than myself but it puts me into a mindset of not thinking of the end as being something distant but right now.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .if you do think we are, why do you think so?
The last days started in 1988. There was a trumpet blast by an angel to mark the beginning of it and I was told ahead of time that this would happen, given the date for the occurrence. Not sure why I was told that exactly unless the angel knew that I was the type of person who would years later say something about it. I don't really know what the significance of it is other than I felt impressed twenty years later that the tribulation had begun, meaning that it began in 2008, twenty years after whatever it was that had begun earlier. This probably is completely meaningless to anyone other than myself but it puts me into a mindset of not thinking of the end as being something distant but right now.





Any idea what the trumpet blast had signified, like a certain event? I was 9 in 1988 so i'm not sure what it signified, i know that Desert Storm started not much long after that. I know Reagan was either still in office or had just vacated.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

Any idea what the trumpet blast had signified, like a certain event? I was 9 in 1988 so I'm not sure what it signified, i know that Desert Storm started not much long after that. I know Reagan was either still in office or had just vacated.
There was a flood and my house got filled with water and everything was a big glob that had to be shoveled out, along with the notes with the date. It was a while back and I can't say what day it was exactly, now. I did keep a close watch on the news at the time to see if there was anything significant and there really wasn't.
All it was was the sound of a voice very loud and clear and distinct saying that at (month day and year) the Angel Moroni would sound a trumpet blast that would herald the beginning of the last days.
I had no idea of what this meant and it sounds like a character from the Mormon mythology to me. I don't know if there really is an angel with that name and it just got picked up on somehow by Joseph Smith, or if it was just told to me in that way so I could have a clear mental picture of what that angel was doing, by looking at that mythical character and that seems likely enough to me.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 09:46 PM
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Well i came across an interesting site on Tribulation events. Its just somoene else's take on the matter i suppose, but it mentions a "America for Jesus" rally in 1988 amoung other things.



One thing that many Christian leaders keep proclaiming is that there is going to be a big, presumably global, revival. Those involved in the "Toronto Blessing" and "Pensacola Revival" movements tend to think that these things are the beginning of it. However, it has been seriously argued, with good reason, by other Christians that these movements are not true revivals, and in fact, not even of God. From the standpoint of psychology, these things could be interpreted as mass hysteria events. They could even be demonic. In fact, recent accounts of such things as dental fillings miraculously turning to gold actually lean toward supporting a Satanic origin for this movement. This kind of thing, to this writer's knowledge, has been, in our time, previously reported only in connection with the cult of "Mary".


Anyways here's the site. I don't know how relevant it is but its worth a shot to take a peek at.

www.be-ready.org...



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 10:35 PM
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Seems I was way off on the date.
That happens and I have seen it in my own life where I would write down details of events and a year later read it and be surprised at how different it was from how I remembered it currently.
Funny it would take so long for me to finally figure it out.
So someone wrote an article recently which describes these certain events in 1984 and 1985 that had to do with the one thing I took special note of on the date I was told something was going to happen. I made sure I would remember it because it was the one thing I thought I would be able to look up later. Later as in really later like today. Anyway the actual date is January second, 1985. Which like I said is probably completely useless but there you go for anyone who might find it somehow useful. The date for the beginning of the Last Days as told to me by what I took to be an angel.
edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Is there anyone who does or does NOT think we are in the last days? If not please discuss why you think we are not, and if you do think we are, why do you think so?

I'll have to check the estimates, but I think the Sun goes out in a few million years. I heard that the Universe which has been expanding for the last 6.something billion years actually expands at an accelerating rate rather than a steady rate. Maybe only 1 billion years before the Universe is too spread out to support life.

As for nastiness accelerating in human affairs and natural disasters and toxification. Present system of civilization could end very soon. Another dark age or slightly worse. Not quite the end of the world though by a long shot.

edit on 23-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
The one effective way to topple Dispensationalism is to show that the OT Yahweh is not God. Therefore any covenants made by Yahweh don't have any validity.

The so-called "land covenant" wasn't a deed to vacant land, it was a command to do genocide and take the land. Human justice alone should be seen as greater than that. Therefore Yahweh is not worthy of human regard, or worship. Down with Yahweh!



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by jmdewey60
The one effective way to topple Dispensationalism is to show that the OT Yahweh is not God. Therefore any covenants made by Yahweh don't have any validity.

The so-called "land covenant" wasn't a deed to vacant land, it was a command to do genocide and take the land. Human justice alone should be seen as greater than that. Therefore Yahweh is not worthy of human regard, or worship. Down with Yahweh!
I don't know but all I can figure is that God allows for people to be so deceived so they can be justly punished, just for holding such views, that killing Palestinians is OK.
People saying how much they love Jesus and try to be good and pray and want to go to heaven, while believing in just and righteous murder, will be how God shows the universe that he justly sends the supposed professors of the Jesus of love, to Hell.
They go so far as to say Jesus himself joins in with the slaying of Muslims.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


They go so far as to say Jesus himself joins in with the slaying of Muslims.

Makes perfect sense though, if you believe Yahweh to be the father of Jesus. Like father like son.

I've found some rather nasty OT plans in store for me, a guy who says, "Down with Yahweh!" Genocide seems nothing to Yahweh compared to rebellion against Yahweh. He's not big on freedom of speech. He's totally against freedom of religion. That's right, genocide is good. [[[ I'm just totally rubbing it in.]]]



posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Have you ever read these in the Bible?




Zech 7:14 "I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land was left so desolate behind them that no one could come or go. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate."


Jer 16:14-16 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."


Isa 27:6 "In the days to come, Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill the world with fruit."


Zech 12:2-3 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about... And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces."

(More than half of the UNSC resolutions are against Israel today. Every nation struggled with how to deal with the nation.)


Zech 14:2 "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped."


Zech 14:3-4 "Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."

(I know, I know, you say the Lord will not fight any battles.... tisk tisk.)


Rev 16:14-16 "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty... Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."


Zech 12:9-10 "On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."




Now, at His return will be the "Sheep and Goats" judgment, where Christ will judge the nations for how they treated His people and nation Israel, and for dividing up the land for a Palestinian state:


Joel 1:1-2 "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.



posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



They go so far as to say Jesus himself joins in with the slaying of Muslims.


He's not returning to the Earth as the Lamb, He'll be returning as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. The nations are listed that He will judge upon His return, and they are all Muslim countries today. Do you even know why Jesus will be returning to Earth with His bride the church?



posted on Aug, 24 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Here is something that seems to be a summary of a particular view of the future and I wonder if it sounds familiar to you.

The Premillennialism of C. I. Schofield and J. N. Darby is the idea accepted by the majority of the premillennialists of today. According to this theory, in God's original plan Jesus came to establish an earthly kingdom and reign over the Jews as their Messiah, but he was rejected by them. This caused a change in God's plan, they say, so that He postponed His original idea. Because the Jews rejected Jesus, God decided to establish the Church. They claim that the Church was not a part of God's original plan and that there is no reference to it in the O. T. They believe the church was established to fill the time until Israel would accept Jesus as Messiah. When Israel accepts Jesus, He will return and reign over them as God planned in the beginning. When the church era ends, Christ will return for the faithful. Christ and the faithful will be over the earth for seven years, invisible to the other inhabitants of the earth. (This time is called, by them, the Rapture.) During this time there will be a great tribulation. At the end of three and a half years Christ will descend, with the saints, to judge the nations (and the Antichrist), and to reign for 1000 years on the earth. He will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem, reigning over the Jewish nation and extending His reign over all the world. When this period of 1000 years ends, Satan will be loosed and will lead a rebellion against the Lord and Jerusalem. The Lord will triumph and destroy Satan. In that way the new heaven and new earth will be established here on a renewed earth.
IBS resources
To me, this does not fulfill any promises, by having a thousand years of fulfilment, since by definition it is not forever, so it is just an exercise in futility.




"According to this theory, in God's original plan.."


LOL wuuut? "Original" plan? As if God isn't omniscient and knew what would happen and was powerless for a brief time to accomplish His special will? What a joke. haha

Wow, apparently you missed my earlier link. It gives a full list of Premillinialist church fathers since the first century.



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