The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You're wrong,.. again. Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the "King of kings and Lord of lords". His entire purpose of returning to Earth is to rescue Israel and to set up His kingdom on Earth. Where He will sit on the throne of David and rule for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. Fulfilling the promise made to Mary by Gabriel.

I was quoting Revelation 17 about the people who overcame the beast and it had in the verse, the lamb of Revelation who is this symbol of the persecuted church, and with this lamb are those who were called and were steadfast. Here we have this group symbolized by the lamb, appearing again in Revelation 20 in the context of the thousands, as being who reigns.

20:4 Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

There is also a parallel sort of idea in Paul:
2 Timothy 2:12a "If we endure, we will also reign with him."

Paul wrote as if he expected the tribulation that ends with the appearance of Christ, to happen in his lifetime. So he may have been counting himself numbered with the lamb. He may have been right for all I know, as far as him being in that group represented by the Lamb of Revelation. In chapter 18, verse 20 that I quoted in my last post mentions the Apostles in the list of those who rejoice in the fall of Babylon.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Really? Jesus isn't the person in Revelation? The title of the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"!!!

There is an allegorical play with seven acts that covers what happens to the church, as in all the individuals who make up the body of Christ. All the events are taking place on another dimension that is accessed by one greatly favored to have been a witness to the earthy events of Jesus. He is given a spiritual sort of body that can go to this realm of existance and to be witness to the events of the body of Christ in symbolic representation.
In act one, a character is introduced who is like a man but is obviously not a man but who is filling the role of a glorified Christ. He speaks in the voice of God as if he is the only one who knows exactly what God thinks and that trait is explained by this character by him saying he is the son of God.
This son of God who looks like a man takes up all the dialog that would be the messages that are being relayed by him on behalf of what the person Jesus might be concerned about, back in the normal world of daily existance which is not this other dimensional world.
Act two of the play brings about a situation where there is someone needed to do a particular task and such a person is searched for all throughout the heavens and the earth and even under the earth, to no avail. Then a new character is introduced who fills this role that did not previously exist. This is the personification of those killed, who joined Jesus in a literal bloody baptism. These in the sixth act are glorified to as a group, to rule the world. They are themselves, in a mystical way, practically a second Christ in a way that we can not comprehend but through this allegorical play.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That would explain quite a lot. That's why you don't have a clue what the basic doctrines and beliefs of cults are. I'd suggest you read up on them so you can differentiate between fundamental orthodox Christian affirmations and those of cults.

I spend my time studying the good things and purposely avoid the evil things so as to not willfully pollute my mind.

Yes, it's called the "Gog Magog" war. And the prophecies indicate that it will be an Islamic federation and the help of Russia who will surround and attack Israel, not vice versa. The prophecies foretell that Israel will be attacked, not the attacker.

I think that is all fabricated from some obscure OT prophecy that probably referred to a recollection of pre-flood mythology.
People devise elaborate explanations to stir up the base emotions of fear and self preservation and tribalism to justify the expense of continuous war and the arming for those and perceived possible wars. Muslims being the main enemy is convenient for a country in the midst of stealing Muslim held land to create their own empire.

What are you talking about, the church is the "Bride of Christ", not Israel. The "Marriage Supper" happens in heaven during the 70th Week of Daniel on Earth. And Israel won't be "ruling" anything, it will be overtaken and Jerusalem trampled down by the antichrist. It'll be a time twice as horrific as the Holocaust, 1/3 of the Jews were slaughtered in the first Holocaust. 2/3s of them will be slaughtered this time around.

Nice to see you finally take a position on who the Bride is.
As far as I am concerned, all the weeks told to Daniel got used up back in 70 AD. I don't recognize the modern state of Israel being somehow a continuation of what had been decreed by God to have ended.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Nope, the final week is the Tribulation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I have a Christian Biblical worldview. We are neither Jew nor Gentile, male not female in Christ. You hate the state of Israel, you condemn the Jews every chance you get on these forums. Just be a man, admit it. Don't hide your bigotry and hatred behind the words of the Bible, that's cowardly.

Maybe it would be if I actually felt like that.
I don't hate Jews so you don't know me to be able to judge me like that. That is what I would call cowardly, making false accusations like that, as if it was an acceptable substitute for an actual argument. You are just resorting to personal attacks.
I do think that what you call the state of Israel is nothing but an act of piracy. Just like the pirate kingdoms set up back in the sailing days.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Nope, the final week is the Tribulation.

I'm a bit behind on my posts but I should try to acknowledge your comment since this is your thread. We are talking about an Old Testament prophecy about something that did happen around the time that the New Testament was being written. The Book of Daniel, to be specific. I believe all that was fulfilled back when Jerusalem was destroyed.
I would think that looking at the New testament would be the thing for figuring out what the tribulation of the church is.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation.

Not sure why you posted that. I believe you are a dispensationalist, based on your interaction on this forum with people who admitted to being followers of the philosophy. I don't make a study of the philosophy beyond what I might need to know about something very specific. I know how much the books from my own church has affected my thinking, so I am very selective as to what I put into my mind.
To address what I quoted here, it looks like cooked up propaganda to me and has only a very superficial similarity to real religion, in my opinion.

Israel is still God's chosen people, christians are just adopted into the family through Jesus and we have taken up God's work. However, when the Beast begins to martyr the Church few christians will survive the purge and so God's will once again falls to the jews to accomplish towards the end of the Tribulation.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

God has never claimed the title King of kings and Lord of lords, his title's were "the Lord of Hosts"and "I AM" amoung a few others.

Do you mean the Old Testament God?
He would have a title like God of gods, Lord of lords.
That probably does not sit to well with people trying to be monotheists.
1 Timothy 6:15b, 16
God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

What i DO know is that Christ wants us to stop being divided over doctrine.

That sounds good on paper, and I agree, but if that's what's on your heart why did you start a thread titled:

"The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Myth"?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
To accomplish . . what?
If all the Christians are dead, what would there be to accomplish on earth?
I don't get that.
I just don't see it and maybe I was just never taught that and I have to wonder what you were taught.
I think there is a mass delusion going on to deceive the world so I have a strong aversion to popular what passes for religion today.
I see this big push for Israel and all I see is people who want to own the world and to enslave the inhabitants. I am never going to support that and feel obligated to do whatever I can to resist it.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Israel is still God's chosen people, christians are just adopted into the family through Jesus and we have taken up God's work. However, when the Beast begins to martyr the Church few christians will survive the purge and so God's will once again falls to the jews to accomplish towards the end of the Tribulation.

Where does it say the beast will martyr the church? Where? The church isn't mentioned on Earth after chapter 3. In Chapter 4 the church is in heaven worshiping the Lamb before He opens the seals of the scroll. It only says the Beast will persecute and kill the "saints", which is a word for the elect of God even before the church was born. All members of the church are saints, but not all "saints' are members of the Body/Bride of Christ, the church.

The entire purpose of the Great Tribulation is to drive the Jews to repent and acknowledge their Messiah. In their suffering they will seek Him earnestly.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Nope, the final week is the Tribulation.

No, the last 3 1/2 years in the "Great Tribulation", but the entire 7 year period is commonly known as 'Daniel's 70th Week". But the last half of that 7 year week is the "Tribulation".

To be precise.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation.

Not sure why you posted that. I believe you are a dispensationalist, based on your interaction on this forum with people who admitted to being followers of the philosophy. I don't make a study of the philosophy beyond what I might need to know about something very specific. I know how much the books from my own church has affected my thinking, so I am very selective as to what I put into my mind.
To address what I quoted here, it looks like cooked up propaganda to me and has only a very superficial similarity to real religion, in my opinion.

"Dispensationlism" isn't a "religion". It's an acknowledgement that God deals differently with the church and with Israel. That God has a different destiny and different plan with Israel and with the church. The church is the "Bride of Christ", Israel is not even though some Jews obviously are in the Body of Christ historically.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
And somebody asked where does it say Jesus is a warrior when he comes back, who do you think rides the white horse with a bow and arrow in the book of Revelation ?

It sounds like you are thinking of the first of the four horsemen.
I think of them all being part of a group which is bad. The first one is the propaganda to get people to believe in such a thing as a just and righteous war. The other three are the reality of war.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I have a Christian Biblical worldview. We are neither Jew nor Gentile, male not female in Christ. You hate the state of Israel, you condemn the Jews every chance you get on these forums. Just be a man, admit it. Don't hide your bigotry and hatred behind the words of the Bible, that's cowardly.

Maybe it would be if I actually felt like that.
I don't hate Jews so you don't know me to be able to judge me like that. That is what I would call cowardly, making false accusations like that, as if it was an acceptable substitute for an actual argument. You are just resorting to personal attacks.
I do think that what you call the state of Israel is nothing but an act of piracy. Just like the pirate kingdoms set up back in the sailing days.

What you call "an act of piracy", others call "fulfilled prophecy". She (Israel) was a nation born in a single day, just as the OT prophet said would be.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
And somebody asked where does it say Jesus is a warrior when he comes back, who do you think rides the white horse with a bow and arrow in the book of Revelation ?

I sounds like you are thinking of the first of the four horsemen.
I think of them all being part of a group which is bad. I first one is the propaganda to get people to believe in such a thing as a just and righteous war. The other three are the reality of war.

Yes, he is mistaken. The rider on the white horse with the bow is the pseudo-Christ, Christ is the rider on the white horse several chapters later with a sword, not a bow.

reply to post by justagirl

We have all been taught in churches that we will be carried off before it got too tough. Not so. We will suffer, our Master Y'shua (Jesus) suffered and we are not better than He. His words aimed at those living in the last days (Matt 24) say clearly what will happen.

It sounds to me like Paul preached a sanctification that went beyond just not committing obvious sins like adultery, but to the point of glorification, to be ready to become a martyr. When I look at Revelation, I see that there is a need for such people in heaven to be joint rulers with Jesus Christ.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't recognize the modern state of Israel being somehow a continuation of what had been decreed by God to have ended.

Sure if you wish to ignore that same God saying He would regather the nation. The Abrahamic land covenant was given "forever". Meaning it was an unbreakable eternal covenant.

Covenant Theology cannot see the future glory of the restored nation of Israel with her Messiah, Jesus Christ, reigning over the entire earth on His father David's throne in the exalted city of Jerusalem because it refuses to recognize (literally) the four unconditional covenants that reveal this marvelous truth. Of these four covenants revealed in Scripture the most important to understand is the unconditional, Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 15:1-7; 17:1-8) with promises given along three major lines:

(1) Abraham would have numerous posterity (Gen. 13:16; 17:16), be given much personal blessing, his name would be great and he personally would be a blessing (Gen. 12:2).

(2) Through Abraham a great nation would emerge (Gen. 12:2). Its primary reference is to Israel, his descendants through Jacob who formed the twelve tribes of Israel. To this nation was given the promise of the land forever (Canaan, Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 15:18-21; 17:7-8).

(3) Through Abraham divine blessing would come to all the families of the earth (Gen. 12:3). This would be directly fulfilled through the nation of Israel which would be God's special channel of divine revelation: The prophets, the writers of Scripture, and ultimately the Person of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, a direct descendant (Seed, Gen. 22:18; Gal. 3:15-19) of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. For this reason the covenant specified that those who blessed Israel would be blessed and those who cursed Israel would be cursed. This stipulation remains in effect today since God has yet to fulfill his eternal promise with the Nation.

The Abrahamic covenant is extremely important to understand because on it hinge the other three unconditional covenants: the Davidic (2Sam. 7:4-16), Land (Deu. 30:1-10) and New (Jer. 31:31-33) covenants. Though they are separate covenants they are really an expansion of the Abrahamic. As the Abrahamic covenant guarantees to Israel an everlasting entity as a nation, the Land covenant reiterates the nation's guaranteed possession of the land. The Davidic covenant guarantees to the nation an everlasting throne (2 Sam. 7:16; Ps. 89:36), an everlasting King (Jer. 33:15-21) and an everlasting kingdom (Dan. 7:14, see Lk. 1:32-33). The New covenant guarantees its spiritual life and blessings.

Abraham - Israel - The World


You really don't think the Lord will keep His covenant He made alone with Abraham and His children?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by justagirl

 

We have all been taught in churches that we will be carried off before it got too tough. Not so. We will suffer, our Master Y'shua (Jesus) suffered and we are not better than He. His words aimed at those living in the last days (Matt 24) say clearly what will happen.

It sounds to me like Paul preached a sanctification that went beyond just not committing obvious sins like adultery, but to the point of glorification, to be ready to become a martyr. When I look at Revelation, I see that there is a need for such people in heaven to be joint rulers with Jesus Christ.

Christians have been martyred since Stephen was stoned to death. This is nothing new. 100,000 per year are martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

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