It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

page: 6
4
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:04 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Actually it's not even in Psuedo-Ephrem


A translation of a late Latin text of what is purported to be a sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem, by a professor at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, Tx., Cameron Rhoades, is cited by some, to support an early church reference to the rapture. However, this support is questionable. The Latin text is not "early" (later than 8th century) and is a conflated text, and not translated directly from either the Syriac or Greek texts.

Tyndale if you are aware is a decidedly Conservative Evangelical school and thus the translator of the quote you used is likely biased toward Pre-trib rapture. Furthermore, he doesn't even translate the work from it's original sources, but rather from an even later Latin text. Latin mistranslations are also notorious for causing huge theological mistakes such as the Original Sin doctrine of the west in which we are all guilty of Adam's sin.




posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:09 AM
link   

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


No, the literal return of Christ to Earth was not pushed aside, rather the belief in an earthly temporal 1,000 year kingdom. This wasn't Augustine's doing, it's in the Nicene-Constantinopolean creed"And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom shall have no end"


Wrong, Augustine began to allegorize the literal return of Christ to rule and reign, instead teaching that He'd rule and reign is our hearts et cetra. But you're muffling the point, you claimed there was no rapture teaching in the church for 1900 years. That's complete poppycock. There has been the teaching of the "Harpazo/Rapture/Catching Away" of the church since Paul revealed the "mystery" in 1 Thessalonians. And not only just teaching of the rapture, but a Pre-Tribulational one to boot.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:23 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yeah, Augustine did allegorize the return of Christ, I wasn't arguing against that. I was arguing that it wasn't Augustine who moved us away from millenialism. As great as his devotional works are, I don't like Blessed Augustine much. He's the source of nearly everything wrong in Western Christianity: Original Sin, Papal infallibility, Sola Fide, and worst of all: Calvinism.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Actually it's not even in Psuedo-Ephrem


A translation of a late Latin text of what is purported to be a sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem, by a professor at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, Tx., Cameron Rhoades, is cited by some, to support an early church reference to the rapture. However, this support is questionable. The Latin text is not "early" (later than 8th century) and is a conflated text, and not translated directly from either the Syriac or Greek texts.

Tyndale if you are aware is a decidedly Conservative Evangelical school and thus the translator of the quote you used is likely biased toward Pre-trib rapture. Furthermore, he doesn't even translate the work from it's original sources, but rather from an even later Latin text. Latin mistranslations are also notorious for causing huge theological mistakes such as the Original Sin doctrine of the west in which we are all guilty of Adam's sin.


I found your Grant Jeffery...



Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writing of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem's text on The Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth "prior to the tribulations that is to come." Ephraem wrote that the saints will be "taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). Other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem's manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhodes, professor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, translated Ephraem's Latin text into English at the request of my friend Dr. Thomas Ice and myself.


mayimhayim.org



This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4...

This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct;only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today.


khouse.org






edit on 23-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yeah, Augustine did allegorize the return of Christ, I wasn't arguing against that. I was arguing that it wasn't Augustine who moved us away from millenialism. As great as his devotional works are, I don't like Blessed Augustine much. He's the source of nearly everything wrong in Western Christianity: Original Sin, Papal infallibility, Sola Fide, and worst of all: Calvinism.


Hey, not all of us in Western Christianity are Calvinists or a part of denominational churches that derived from the Reformation. Luther and Calvin highly regarded Augustine. And while I'm not here to judge him as a person, but some doctrines and theological positions he introduced to Christiandom I feel are incomplete. I believe that a person can be wrong about everything yet be right about Christ and His sacrifice and everything else is just fun debate. However, a person can be right about everything else, yet wrong about Christ and His sacrifice and be in huge trouble when they pass into eternity.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:34 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



I already pointed out how 1 Thessalonians doesn't support the rapture, but I'll do it again.



5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


First of all, the dead will rise before those "left alive". The dead shall arise "on the last day" and those "left alive who remain" are clearly survivors of the tribulation. Where does the pre-trib rapture fit in on the last day? Furthermore, this refutes a millenial kingdom, because we "shall... ever be with the Lord".
edit on 23-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



I already pointed out how 1 Thessalonians doesn't support the rapture, but I'll do it again.



5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


First of all, the dead will rise before those "left alive". The dead shall arise "on the last day" and those "left alive who remain" are clearly survivors of the tribulation. Where does the pre-trib rapture fit in on the last day? Furthermore, this refutes a millenial kingdom, because we "shall... ever be with the Lord".


The "caught up" in verse 17 is "Harpazo" in the Greek text. Which is "Raptiro" in the Latin. It's the place where the English term "Rapture" is derived from.

Your other issues have been addressed HERE which I've previously linked. Please don't be yet another poster on these forums who refuses to read and address linked source materials. There's far too much of that going on here at ATS. I read your links, please offer the same respect for my efforts to search out and provide sourced information.
edit on 23-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yeah, Augustine did allegorize the return of Christ, I wasn't arguing against that. I was arguing that it wasn't Augustine who moved us away from millenialism. As great as his devotional works are, I don't like Blessed Augustine much. He's the source of nearly everything wrong in Western Christianity: Original Sin, Papal infallibility, Sola Fide, and worst of all: Calvinism.


Hey, not all of us in Western Christianity are Calvinists or a part of denominational churches that derived from the Reformation. Luther and Calvin highly regarded Augustine. And while I'm not here to judge him as a person, but some doctrines and theological positions he introduced to Christiandom I feel are incomplete. I believe that a person can be wrong about everything yet be right about Christ and His sacrifice and everything else is just fun debate. However, a person can be right about everything else, yet wrong about Christ and His sacrifice and be in huge trouble when they pass into eternity.


This I totally agree with. Augustine, like Origen, truly loved Christ with his whole being, but they are both tragic figures in that they propagated false doctrine in trying to stand for Orthodoxy. I have a deep respect for both, but I wouldn't call them Saints or exemplars.
edit on 23-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:42 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I wasn't saying we wouldn't be "caught up in the clouds". I'm arguing against the belief that we will escape tribulation and will be caught up in the clouds before the last day.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:47 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I brought up Jeffrey because he's the one usually sourcing Pseudo Ephrem as St. Ephrem the Syrian which already shows his dishonesty. I need to find out who this Dr. Paul Alexander is, however.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 01:51 AM
link   
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”-Matthew 24:29-31

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”-Matthew 24:15-22

edit on 23-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:17 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . .in Revelation chapter 17 it clearly says "The Lamb", (Christ) will be waging war against the antichrist and his gathered nations upon His return for Israel. Again, in verse 14 "the Lamb" is identified as "The King of kings and the Lord of lords".

You're wrong,.. again. Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the "King of kings and Lord of lords". His entire purpose of returning to Earth is to rescue Israel and to set up His kingdom on Earth. Where He will sit on the throne of David and rule for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. Fulfilling the promise made to Mary by Gabriel.
The first part of your post that I am quoting seems to be your cult philosophy. All this stuff about Israel and antichrist, that is all interpretation by this religious sect that you have apparently bought into and feel like spreading around to others.
I already quoted you the verse from 1 Timothy that establishes who the king of kings and lord of lords is, and that is God.
I already said that the Book of Revelation is about the people who are being persecuted and killed for the name of Jesus. Those people are the stars of the book (in today's lingo). Jesus is a person, according to this book, who is alluded to as having to do with why they are being persecuted but it is not about him.
Once you understand those two things, then you can understand the verse in chapter 17.
Next, you need to know that chapters 17 and 18 is one story.
The angel tells John he will show him the great whore and how she is condemned and punished.
At the end of chapter 17 the angel tells John that he will tell him who these characters are in his vision, and says the whore is this great city. Chapter 18 continues with the story with pronouncements being made against the great city, Babylon.

verse 20, "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf!"

So the Lamb is vindicated by God.

Back in chapter 13 it tells a different story of the relationship between the beast and the saints. The beast is given its authority from the dragon and kills the saints. This sounds like a physical victory by the civil powers acting on behalf of the dragon to put people to death who refuse to subject themselves in a way that was rejecting God.
In chapter 17 it seems more like spiritual warfare, not to physically take their lives but to seduce the saints into giving up their souls in exchange for sinful pleasure.
In 13, the beast overcomes the saints while in 17 when it comes down to war, it is the Lamb who overcomes it opponent. So what is the difference? In 13 it mentions the Lamb who had been slain. Why were they prevailed upon in one case while the opposite happens in the other? Maybe it was too soon in 13 and this killing of the Saints it part of what draws down its punishment. Once it was ripe for punishment, then no more killing needed to occur.

Young's Literal Translation
these with the Lamb shall make war, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because Lord of lords he is, and King of kings, and those with him are called, and choice, and stedfast.

The word, He, is provided to make the sentence make sense in the English translation.
The word used between Lord of lords, and King of Kings can very often be translated as, Also.
If the bias was not already there in the minds of the translators, that any place you see the word Lamb it automatically has to be Jesus, you could just as easily have an alternative translation:

these (referring to the beast and associates in the previous verse) with the Lamb shall make war, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because Lord of lords is also King of kings, and those with him are called, and choice, and stedfast.

eta: you end up with a comparison between the evil empire on one side, having power to fight against the lamb on account of the kings throwing their authority in with it. On the other side is the good, with the Lord of Lords having a higher authority on account of being above those kings, so that the lamb prevails.
edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:32 AM
link   
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


The title "King of kings and Lord of lords" is not a title claimed by Christ himself. This was the title that was nailed above his head by the Romans to ostracize Jesus in tandem with the crown of thorns. God is not the King of kings and Lord of lords this title was given to Jesus to mock him. The pharisees were criticizing jesus and making fun of him because Jesus said to them "I AM, the truth the life and the way, no one comes to the father but through me". The whole reason he was crucified was because he claimed to be the messiah "I AM" in the flesh which really did not sit well with them. Nicodemus was the one pharisee who believed him and tried to defend Jesus by testifying to Christ's miracles. God has never claimed the title King of kings and Lord of lords, his title's were "the Lord of Hosts"and "I AM" amoung a few others.
edit on 23-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 08:39 AM
link   
I agree with the OP, Christians will not escape the wrath of the Great Tribulation, now Armageddon, that is a different matter, some might. But many, in fact most Christians that Jesus approves will actually go through the entire event and they are what the bible calls in Revelation "The Great Crowd". Somebody in this thread already quoted the scripture.

And somebody asked where does it say Jesus is a warrior when he comes back, who do you think rides the white horse with a bow and arrow in the book of Revelation ?



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 09:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Yeah, Augustine did allegorize the return of Christ, I wasn't arguing against that. I was arguing that it wasn't Augustine who moved us away from millenialism. As great as his devotional works are, I don't like Blessed Augustine much. He's the source of nearly everything wrong in Western Christianity: Original Sin, Papal infallibility, Sola Fide, and worst of all: Calvinism.


Hey, not all of us in Western Christianity are Calvinists or a part of denominational churches that derived from the Reformation. Luther and Calvin highly regarded Augustine. And while I'm not here to judge him as a person, but some doctrines and theological positions he introduced to Christiandom I feel are incomplete. I believe that a person can be wrong about everything yet be right about Christ and His sacrifice and everything else is just fun debate. However, a person can be right about everything else, yet wrong about Christ and His sacrifice and be in huge trouble when they pass into eternity.


We are all brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of denomination or doctrine. The Lord wants us to unite as one church and worship him as one. I asked the Lord "why do we not see miracles as in the days when Jesus walked the earth?" I was given a dream by the Holy Spirit where a Great Revival was taking place, and i heard Him say "when this time comes to pass, great works and miracles shall be performed in the name of the Lord the likes that this world has not seen since his passing". This dream came to pass after I submitted to the Lord and told him i would be a preacher, a prophet or a healer or anything that he asked of me. Wether or not this is the Great Revival of the Tribulation, i do not know. What i DO know is that Christ wants us to stop being divided over doctrine. The core of our belief no matter the denomination is that Jesus is the Son of God, whom died on the cross for our sins and was risen from the dead 3 days later and sits at the right hand of God, this is what unites us. Christ is the tie that binds us all together. It is my belief we are in the Tribulation right now, current world events and the wars and rumors of wars and civil wars, the famines in Africa, the world economy in the tank in my heart of hearts and it scares me to say this but i do believe we are in the Tribulation. Never before in history has the world been in as much trouble as it is now.
edit on 23-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 11:47 AM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


No, King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a title for YHWH in the OT and Yeshuah in Revelation to show his source in the Godhead. The sign above Yeshuah's head at the crucifixion was "Yeshuah of Nazareth, King of the Jews".



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:16 PM
link   
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


The absence of miracles in Christianity today is due to it being watered down and instead of an experiential understanding of God, we often turn our faith into Philosophy. This is especially true in the west where the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and the Eucharist are seen merely as symbols. How can we expect the grace of the Holy Spirit to descend when we rationalize away all mystery? There are still miracles, but they don't happen to those who tempt God at a Benny Hinn show, nor the proud and arrogant who feel they need them. An hour away from me is the Holy Virgin, Joy of All Who Sorrow Cathedral in San Francisco. There is the incorrupt body of St. John Maximovitch who died in the 50's. People were healed by his prayers and when thanked he would simply say "Of course God healed you!". He took care of orphans of the October Revolution in Russia and the Cultural Revolution in China, brought them across three continents to America. He slept a few hours a day in a chair, was constantly fasting, constantly praying, and never expected the same from anyone else. He visited the sick from his enormous parish and couldn't keep money in his pocket because he would just give it away. He mentored Fr. Seraphim (man in my profile pic; likely to be canonized a Saint soon) and blessed his ministry that afterwards spread Orthodoxy in America, spread Orthodox literature to the catacomb church in Russia, and later saved many people from the throes of Nihilism most famously among the California punk movement ( www.deathtotheworld.com ) and continues to do so after his death. Then Saint John died and just as he worked miracles through prayer as though it were nothing, did not succumb to rot or corruption (Orthodox neither embalm their dead or cover the incorruptibles in wax as the Romans do).

Miracles come through pure faith and synergy with the will of God. They do not come to the proud or those who really really want it, they come to the humble and the meek who live totally by the word of God. I do not expect such a thing to happen for me and they are unlikely to happen for you unless you stop seeking them and live in synergy with the Lord's will. However, there may be a moment of synergy where a miracle will occur even as you live now, a "good day" if you will, but you cannot seek after a sign.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:20 PM
link   



We are all brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of denomination or doctrine.



Sorry, this isn't true.

I John says

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.
1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again I write you a fresh command, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light now shines.
1Jn 2:9 The one who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in the darkness until now. "

And
Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”

We can't make up our own doctrine and call ourselves "in Christ" we must guard and obey His commands.

I you drop all outside influence, commentators, pastors, people like Grant Jefferies and instead read only the Word of YHWH with a good Hebrew and Greek Lexicon, you will see. Ask in prayer for Him to show you the truth, if you really want to know the truth.

I'm glad the OP started this topic and that it has mostly stayed on topic because I think this is a very big conspiracy! We have all been taught in churches that we will be carried off before it got too tough. Not so. We will suffer, our Master Y'shua (Jesus) suffered and we are not better than He. His words aimed at those living in the last days (Matt 24) say clearly what will happen.

Even if Paul did say we'd be caught up first before any tribulation, I'd believe the Messiah over Paul any day. However, I do see that Paul taught the truth. I know this is a hard thing for all who think they already know the truth. I couldn't believe how many lies (that began centuries ago) had been taught and are still being taught from the pulpits. Many are so easy to prove...it is sad that pastors can't be bothered to do a little research themselves.

If all you had was a copy of the Bible and a Strong's concordance...no way you'd come up with a religion that looks like most christian churches today. No way.



edit on 23-8-2011 by justagirl because: Not sure why all my comments were in quotes

edit on 23-8-2011 by justagirl because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:29 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You know what? I think I'm just going to drop this. After a good night's sleep it occurred to me what I was doing: nothing useful. I am simply causing division among the Church. Now, I don't believe nor want to believe that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I can see no harm in you believing this. Why am I arguing against a fellow Christian who holds to the basic Orthodox tenets of the Faith? I respect you and what you do on this God-forsaken gnostic deathtrap of a forum too much to antagonize you further. I don't hold a monopoly on Bible truth and could very well be wrong. I don't like the idea of the rapture, nor do I think it's Biblical, but I will accept the Lord's sovereignty over this decision if it turns out to be true. I don't think you would be so foolish as to mistake the Beast for Christ establishing his Kingdom on Earth and I think you are prepared to face tribulation if you are wrong about the Rapture. So, again, I apologize for feeding into the mountain of polemics on this site.

Forgive me brother, a sinner
edit on 23-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:35 PM
link   
reply to post by justagirl
 


The Bible is a huge book and without the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church and consensus among the Bishops, personal hermeneutics, no matter how exhaustive and educated, will lead you to a different conclusion than the person next to you. Do you think that all 30,000 denominations of Christianity were started by people who don't know how to use a concordance? Strong's Concordance is used by pretty much any Pastor or Priest who didn't go to seminary online.



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join