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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

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posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

A "literalist" doesn't mean that one denies the Spirit uses figures of speech. Come on, that was a facetious question.
A literalist is one who believes that Israel is actually the country in Palestine calling itself by that name, and not the inheritors of the promises to Abraham which would be the Christians, so it is only a narrow bit of verses that are taken literally and are the ones with the name Israel in them.



Yeah, I don't believe the Abrahamic land covenant was ever vacated by God. God made the covenant with Himself, He placed Abraham in a deep sleep and walked through the animal halves Himself. This was symbolic in showing it rested upon His faithfulness alone. And the re-emergence of Israel was a major fulfillment of prophecy. Be a man ans just admit you hate Jews, you're an anti-Semite. Don't hide behind the Bible to justify your bigotry and racism. Be a man, stand up for your hatred.



edit on 22-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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I see that you're going to continue to wiggle-worm your way out of answering the question.

Jesus Christ is "the Lamb". John the Baptist called Him "the Lamb" in John 1:29. John the apostle calls Him the Lamb. He is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. The reason I'm asking and to go back to my original point with you about "the rider of the white horse" from Revelation 19 being Jesus Christ is because in Revelation chapter 17 it clearly says "The Lamb", (Christ) will be waging war against the antichrist and his gathered nations upon His return for Israel. Again, in verse 14 "the Lamb" is identified as "The King of kings and the Lord of lords".

You're wrong,.. again. Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the "King of kings and Lord of lords". His entire purpose of returning to Earth is to rescue Israel and to set up His kingdom on Earth. Where He will sit on the throne of David and rule for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. Fulfilling the promise made to Mary by Gabriel.



These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. ~ Revelation 17:14



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I'm looking for a name.
And . . So?
Don't ask me.
Jesus is a person in the Gospels and as far as I can tell that person is not in Revelation.
These are pictures that are portents of things being show in symbols.
Just because John the Baptist said the word Lamb in conjunction with Jesus does not mean that the symbol in Revelation that looks like a very strange sort of lamb is the person, Jesus. It may be part of your cult's doctrine that says so, and you are reading your cult manual and writing the correct answers here, but I don't work that way. This is a forum where people can share their thoughts and I don't think it is for spreading propaganda.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Revelation says Jesus will wage the war, not us. I'm not a "kingdom Now" dominionist. We can't have a "kingdom" here on Earth before THE KING arrives.
So you are presenting another cult and pointing out that you do not belong to THAT cult.
I don't on purpose study cults and their doctrines so I don't know what all the differences are.
The important thing is there is a physical real war that is going on, now or in the very near future, as in maybe tomorrow, that involves somehow a country in Palestine called Israel. And that this is what all the Bible prophecies are pointing to. And that literally Israel is Israel and not by name only and they are going to rule the world while the Christians are in a hole or someplace else off the planet and that the Bride is not the Christians but if they are lucky may be invited to come to the supper.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I'm looking for a name.
And . . So?
Don't ask me.
Jesus is a person in the Gospels and as far as I can tell that person is not in Revelation.
These are pictures that are portents of things being show in symbols.
Just because John the Baptist said the word Lamb in conjunction with Jesus does not mean that the symbol in Revelation that looks like a very strange sort of lamb is the person, Jesus. It may be part of your cult's doctrine that says so, and you are reading your cult manual and writing the correct answers here, but I don't work that way. This is a forum where people can share their thoughts and I don't think it is for spreading propaganda.



Really? Jesus isn't the person in Revelation? The title of the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"!!!





These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. ~ Revelation 17:14



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Revelation says Jesus will wage the war, not us. I'm not a "kingdom Now" dominionist. We can't have a "kingdom" here on Earth before THE KING arrives.
So you are presenting another cult and pointing out that you do not belong to THAT cult.


"Kingdom Now" or "Dominionist" is a doctrine, it's not a specific sect or organization. There are Dominionists is every church, it's not a specific religion.



I don't on purpose study cults and their doctrines so I don't know what all the differences are.


That would explain quite a lot. That's why you don't have a clue what the basic doctrines and beliefs of cults are. I'd suggest you read up on them so you can differentiate between fundamental orthodox Christian affirmations and those of cults.


The important thing is there is a physical real war that is going on, now or in the very near future, as in maybe tomorrow, that involves somehow a country in Palestine called Israel. And that this is what all the Bible prophecies are pointing to.


Yes, it's called the "Gog Magog" war. And the prophecies indicate that it will be an Islamic federation and the help of Russia who will surround and attack Israel, not vice versa. The prophecies foretell that Israel will be attacked, not the attacker.


And that literally Israel is Israel and not by name only and they are going to rule the world while the Christians are in a hole or someplace else off the planet and that the Bride is not the Christians but if they are lucky may be invited to come to the supper.


What are you talking about, the church is the "Bride of Christ", not Israel. The "Marriage Supper" happens in heaven during the 70th Week of Daniel on Earth. And Israel won't be "ruling" anything, it will be overtaken and Jerusalem trampled down by the antichrist. It'll be a time twice as horrific as the Holocaust, 1/3 of the Jews were slaughtered in the first Holocaust. 2/3s of them will be slaughtered this time around.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

A "literalist" doesn't mean that one denies the Spirit uses figures of speech. Come on, that was a facetious question.
A literalist is one who believes that Israel is actually the country in Palestine calling itself by that name, and not the inheritors of the promises to Abraham which would be the Christians, so it is only a narrow bit of verses that are taken literally and are the ones with the name Israel in them.



Yeah, I don't believe the Abrahamic land covenant was ever vacated by God. God made the covenant with Himself, He placed Abraham in a deep sleep and walked through the animal halves Himself. This was symbolic in showing it rested upon His faithfulness alone. And the re-emergence of Israel was a major fulfillment of prophecy. Be a man ans just admit you hate Jews, you're an anti-Semite. Don't hide behind the Bible to justify your bigotry and racism. Be a man, stand up for your hatred.
I laugh at you.
That is the fall-back for people with no argument.
That somehow I am a racist, while you are promulgating a world view philosophy based solely on race.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by ntech
Opposing viewpoint here.

The word rapture isn't in the bible simply because at the time it was a new concept. There wasn't a word for it at the time. However the concept is there if you look at the prophesies and parables. To start with.

1 Thessalonians: Chapter 4

5 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then Matthew 24.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And
Revelation 7. After the opening of the 6th seal.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

edit on 22-8-2011 by ntech because: (no reason given)

The Elect are gathered after the tribulation and after the resurrection of the dead. Not only is the Rapture, wherein the elect are saved from the tribulation, not in the bible, it's absent from Christian writing for 1,800 years! There's certainly a debate over pre, post, and amilleniallism in the Church, but even the Chiliasts (radical premillenialists who believed in an earthly temporal millenial kingdom, that many evangelicals would have alot in common with) never mentioned a rapture.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 



The Elect are gathered after the tribulation and after the resurrection of the dead. Not only is the Rapture, wherein the elect are saved from the tribulation, not in the bible, it's absent from Christian writing for 1,800 years! There's certainly a debate over pre, post, and amilleniallism in the Church, but even the Chiliasts (radical premillenialists who believed in an earthly temporal millenial kingdom, that many evangelicals would have alot in common with) never mentioned a rapture.


All members of the church are the "elect", not all the "elect" are a part of the church. And your statement that no one taught about the rapture before the 1800s is incorrect, in the videos I linked there are numerous references from early church father's to a rapture, and not just that, a pre-tribulation rapture. The stopping of the teaching of a literal return to Earth of Christ began with Augustine. He allegorized much of the Eschatelogical portions of scripture because it wasn't good for priests to teach that Jesus was coming back to rid the world of the evil nations and their leaders when they were on the government payroll.

There are scores of written accounts of the teaching of the rapture prior to the 1800s.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



I laugh at you.


That's fine, I'm not running for office, I don't need any votes.


That is the fall-back for people with no argument. That somehow I am a racist, while you are promulgating a world view philosophy based solely on race.


I have a Christian Biblical worldview. We are neither Jew nor Gentile, male not female in Christ. You hate the state of Israel, you condemn the Jews every chance you get on these forums. Just be a man, admit it. Don't hide your bigotry and hatred behind the words of the Bible, that's cowardly.



And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ~ Genesis 12:3


Bless the state of Israel.
edit on 23-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:23 AM
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Example:



"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which over-whelms the world because of our sins."


Ephraem the Syrian 306-373 A.D.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



Replacementism


Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.

Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.

Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign.


"The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).

"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).



Defending the Pre-Trib. Rapture



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

He is the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
That sounds like Revelation 13:8 but apparently your own translation. It can be translated two ways, the other way being that the names were in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

New Living Translation
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made--the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.

English Standard version
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

New American Standard Bible
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

American Standard Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

Bible in Basic English
And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death.

Darby Bible Translation
and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb.

World English Bible
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.

NETBible
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

MSG
Everyone on earth whose name was not written from the world's foundation in the slaughtered Lamb's Book of Life will worship the Beast

BBE
And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death.

NRSV
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.



edit on 23-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:36 AM
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The idea of the Rapture always disgusted me. Even when I was in a theological no man's land, being outwardly Roman Catholic, but reading the Left Behind series; I never wanted to be raptured. All of the typical Protestant American Christians were raptured in the books and given a "get out of tribulation free card", while those Left Behind became Christians and had to suffer for their testimony AS A CHRISTIAN SHOULD. If Christ says that we "must take up [our] Cross and follow [him]" why should we expect anything less than to be nailed to it as well? The entire history of the Orthodox Church has been persecution. Christians were outright murdered on the streets until the edict of Milan, then they were persecuted under Arian Emperors, persecuted under Iconoclast Emperors, assaulted by Muslims, raped and pillaged by Crusaders, subjugated by Muslims again (to this day), persecuted by power mad Tsars, exterminated by Bolsheviks, and currently being sapped by a globalist secular beast system. St. Stephen was stoned, St. Peter was Crucified, St. Eudokia was beheaded, St. Ignatius was thrown to the lions, St. Justin Martyr was betrayed by the cynic philosopher Crescens, and the Blessed New Martyrs of Optina Monastery were stabbed to death by a Satanist. Why should I expect a better fate than these brave men and women? When the beast comes and commands all mankind to bow before him, I don't want to be raptured to safety. I want to look him in the eyes and say "no".


Revelation 12 1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You mean psuedo-Ephraim 7th century

Addendum: Oops, forgot the source: en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 23-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 



The idea of the Rapture always disgusted me. Even when I was in a theological no man's land, being outwardly Roman Catholic, but reading the Left Behind series; I never wanted to be raptured. All of the typical Protestant American Christians were raptured in the books and given a "get out of tribulation free card", while those Left Behind became Christians and had to suffer for their testimony AS A CHRISTIAN SHOULD. If Christ says that we "must take up [our] Cross and follow [him]" why should we expect anything less than to be nailed to it as well? The entire history of the Orthodox Church has been persecution. Christians were outright murdered on the streets until the edict of Milan, then they were persecuted under Arian Emperors, persecuted under Iconoclast Emperors, assaulted by Muslims, raped and pillaged by Crusaders, subjugated by Muslims again (to this day), persecuted by power mad Tsars, exterminated by Bolsheviks, and currently being sapped by a globalist secular beast system. St. Stephen was stoned, St. Peter was Crucified, St. Eudokia was beheaded, St. Ignatius was thrown to the lions, St. Justin Martyr was betrayed by the cynic philosopher Crescens, and the Blessed New Martyrs of Optina Monastery were stabbed to death by a Satanist. Why should I expect a better fate than these brave men and women? When the beast comes and commands all mankind to bow before him, I don't want to be raptured to safety. I want to look him in the eyes and say "no".


Who says Christians are not suffering great persecution in the world today?? Over 100,000 are martyred yearly for their testimony of Jesus Christ. The Bride has been suffering great persecution since Christ rose from the dead. To me the idea that Christians are not absurdly persecuted in this world is laughable.

Persecution.com



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You mean psuedo-Ephraim 7th century



No, different guy.


Ephrem the Syrian (Aramaic / Syriac: ܐܦܪܝܡ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ, Mor/Mar Afrêm Sûryāyâ; Greek: Ἐφραίμ ὁ Σῦρος; Latin: Ephraem Syrus; ca. 306 – 373) was a Syriac and a prolific Syriac-language hymnographer and theologian of the 4th century. He is venerated by Christians throughout the world, and especially in the Syriac Orthodox Church, as a saint.


Ephrem the Syrian ~ Wiki


And even if you're correct with 7th century for the sake of argument, you're still in error that no one taught a rapture in the church for 1900 years. Which is what you claimed.
edit on 23-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Did you check the source? Psuedo Ephrem is commonly used in favor of Pre-Trib rapture. Did you get any of this stuff from Grant Jeffrey?



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Did you check the source? Psuedo Ephrem is commonly used in favor of Pre-Trib rapture. Did you get any of this stuff from Grant Jeffrey?


Yeah, I got your source. All it said was "questionable" simply meaning someone questions it's authenticity. I'd imagine pre-trib fighters do question it. And even if it was 7th century for the sake of argument it still shows that your statement that no one in the church taught a rapture for 1900 years is incorrect. No, I don't read Grant Jeffery.



edit on 23-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 23 2011 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


No, the literal return of Christ to Earth was not pushed aside, rather the belief in an earthly temporal 1,000 year kingdom. This wasn't Augustine's doing, it's in the Nicene-Constantinopolean creed"And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom shall have no end"



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