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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

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posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 08:33 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 




posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by bogomil
 


Yes we get the idea you are an atheist that refuses to repent , this post isnt for you so run along to the next thread please.
edit on 22-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)


Personally (like Bogomil) i do not share your belief either. Rapture is a rediculious concept, simply another conversion tactic used by the churches.

If you believe what we believe, God will remove you from the comming "tribulation"... If you don't you're subject to said horible "soon to come" situation.

The Rapture is a myth, and not even an old one. Again its a recent edition to the list of tactical conversion methods used by various "religious authorities"... And not even a well thought out one...

So considering i do not share your believe, does that mean im not welcome on your thread either?


edit on 22-8-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Dear God Almighty.. these myths are STILL being spread on the internet?

*sigh*








posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by daikaiju
The word 'Rapture' is not in the Bible,your right there,but explainto me why the church is not mentioned after chapter 4 to until later in the book?

Revelations that is


The word "rapture" is not in the ENGLISH version of the Bible, it's in the Latin.

English: "Caught up"

Latin: "Raptiro"

Greek: "Harpazo"



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .the second time he will come to destroy those who joined the armies of hell and fought against him.
Do you have evidence for the actual person Jesus, as in the one in the Gospels, being this warrior doing battle and personally killing his enemy?






Is Revelation 19:19-21 still in the Bible?



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Dear lonewolf19792000,

I agree with you, no pre-tribulation rapture. Martyrs come first.


No one who teaches the rapture will be pre-trib denies that there will be martyrs preceding the great tribulation.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
I must agree with you on this.
The whole point of the book Revelation is to encourage the Church during a time of persecution, to inspire them to "patient endurance". If the church disappears from the world before the persecution, the book loses its point.


Can you show where the church is mentioned anywhere on Earth in Revelation after chapter 3? The 70th week of Daniel is the "Time of Jacob's trouble". It's focus is on Israel, not the church. When the scroll is opened by Christ the church is at the mezzanine in heaven witnessing it. Christ identifies the "candlesticks" as the churches in Revelation 1. And when He begins to open the seals of the scroll in heaven the "candlesticks" are present viewing it.


As for those who say "the church is not seen after ch4"- Yes, it is. The sealing in ch7, for a start. Everything that happens afterwards is a warning to the pre-tribulation church about what the tribulation will bring them (and what God will do about it).


Um, the people being "sealed" in Revelation chapter 7 are the elect/saints of the Jews:

"7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."



edit on 22-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by daikaiju
The word 'Rapture' is not in the Bible,your right there,but explainto me why the church is not mentioned after chapter 4 to until later in the book?

Revelations that is
edit on 21/8/2011 by daikaiju because: (no reason given)


Well from what i read, when Christ opens the 5th seal, the Beast is going to round us up and slaughter us if we refuse his mark. From that point we become the martyrs who die for Christ and we will be the saints that return along with all those who died before us to make war on the armies of hell at the battle of armageddon (megiddo).


It doesn't say the "church", it says the Beast will wage war on the "saints". The elect of God were also called "saints" long before the church was even birthed. Anyone who is elect of God is referred to as a "saint". All members of the Bride are "saints", but not all "saints" are part of the bride. It says the Beast will wage war on the "saints".



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .the second time he will come to destroy those who joined the armies of hell and fought against him.
Do you have evidence for the actual person Jesus, as in the one in the Gospels, being this warrior doing battle and personally killing his enemy?

Is Revelation 19:19-21 still in the Bible?
This is rather typical as a response from you, citing verses without quoting them or giving any explanation for them.
Let me pretend to support your "argument" for a second.
(you)"Well, here is someone with a name reminiscent of something which possibly could be attributed to Jesus if we just assumed all the Old Testament verses which we like to associate with the concept of a future messiah can all just be placed onto Jesus as a blanket fulfilment of the whole mass of such verses."
(me) But Jesus never made such claims concerning himself.
(you) "Well Jesus was humble while merely pretending to be a man, so he could not make such claims concerning himself, other wise he may appear prideful, thus sinning and we all know Jesus could not sin, being God Almighty."
(me) So anyone else could come along later and write a new prophecy about Jesus and if it contained enough OT sounding slogans then the new prophecies could be taken as the fulfilment of OT prophecies?
(you) "Right, now you get the picture!"
(me) I was being sarcastic.
edit on 22-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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All i am saying is the way i read it, there is no being called up before the seventh and final seal is broken. The church isnt mentioned during the whole process until the 5th seal. Who do you think is going to be martyred? Puppydogs? if this so called "pre-tribulation" happens the martyrs will be jews? No it will not be the jews who get martyred. The world loves to crucify christians, WE will be the martyrs.

freestockphotos.com...

Here's the link maybe this will break it down for you.
edit on 22-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Can you show where the church is mentioned anywhere on Earth in Revelation after chapter 3?


ch7 v4 etc. The church are sealed. "You also, who have heard the word of truth...were sealed with the promised Spirit"- Ephesians ch1 v13
ch7 vv9 etc. The church, having been sealed, are simultaneously " seated in the heavenly places"- Ephesians ch3 v6
ch11 v1 The church remains faithful in the worship of God.
ch11 The church witnesses in the midst of the persecution of the Beast, and suffers accordingly.
ch13 v7, v15 The church witnesses in the midst of the persecution of the Beast, and suffers accordingly.


Um, the people being "sealed" in Revelation chapter 7 are the elect/saints of the Jews:

"7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

The people being sealed in ch7 are Israel. That does not mean they are Jews.
You are missing a very important New Testament point here;
The Jews are only Israel "according to the flesh" (KATA SARKA) as Paul calls them in 1 Corinthians ch9 v18.
The point he is making- implicitly, in that particular citation- is that the body of Christ are Israel "according to the Spirit".
This is a New Testament book. The mantle and role of Israel has passed to the church.

Have you come across my systematic series on Revelation?
Revelation; Project complete, Index



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Can you show where the church is mentioned anywhere on Earth in Revelation after chapter 3?


ch7 v4 etc. The church are sealed. "You also, who have heard the word of truth...were sealed with the promised Spirit"- Ephesians ch1 v13
ch7 vv9 etc. The church, having been sealed, are simultaneously " seated in the heavenly places"- Ephesians ch3 v6
ch11 v1 The church remains faithful in the worship of God.
ch11 The church witnesses in the midst of the persecution of the Beast, and suffers accordingly.
ch13 v7, v15 The church witnesses in the midst of the persecution of the Beast, and suffers accordingly.


Um, the people being "sealed" in Revelation chapter 7 are the elect/saints of the Jews:

"7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

The people being sealed in ch7 are Israel. That does not mean they are Jews.
You are missing a very important New Testament point here;
The Jews are only Israel "according to the flesh" (KATA SARKA) as Paul calls them in 1 Corinthians ch9 v18.
The point he is making- implicitly, in that particular citation- is that the body of Christ are Israel "according to the Spirit".
This is a New Testament book. The mantle and role of Israel has passed to the church.

Have you come across my systematic series on Revelation?
Revelation; Project complete, Index






Exactly, until the church fails and is martyred in the 5th seal, by which God's will shall again fall on the jews shoulders in the seventh seal, and thoe who died in christ are called up first and those who managed to survive are transformed and we all meet together with Christ before Armageddon.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Exactly, until the church fails and is martyred in the 5th seal, by which God's will shall again fall on the jews shoulders in the seventh seal, and thoe who died in christ are called up first and those who managed to survive are transformed and we all meet together with Christ before Armageddon.

I see no reason to bring the Jews into it at all.
I think this passage indicates the existence of two different sets of Christian martyrs.
My interpretation of events is that the victims of the persecution of the Beast are the second set, who come later
At this point in Revelation, the Beast has not appeared on the scene.
.
The theory I put forward in my threads is that the first set of martyrs are already dead when ch6 begins- indeed, that ch6 is God's reaction to their deaths (which is why it comes so quickly after the state of persecution implied in ch1)
What we see when the fifth seal is opened is simply their reaction to what God is doing



edit on 22-8-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

. . .the second time he will come to destroy those who joined the armies of hell and fought against him.
Do you have evidence for the actual person Jesus, as in the one in the Gospels, being this warrior doing battle and personally killing his enemy?

Is Revelation 19:19-21 still in the Bible?
This is rather typical as a response from you, citing verses without quoting them or giving any explanation for them.
Let me pretend to support your "argument" for a second.
(you)"Well, here is someone with a name reminiscent of something which possibly could be attributed to Jesus if we just assumed all the Old Testament verses which we like to associate with the concept of a future messiah can all just be placed onto Jesus as a blanket fulfilment of the whole mass of such verses."
(me) But Jesus never made such claims concerning himself.
(you) "Well Jesus was humble while merely pretending to be a man, so he could not make such claims concerning himself, other wise he may appear prideful, thus sinning and we all know Jesus could not sin, being God Almighty."
(me) So anyone else could come along later and write a new prophecy about Jesus and if it contained enough OT sounding slogans then the new prophecies could be taken as the fulfilment of OT prophecies?
(you) "Right, now you get the picture!"
(me) I was being sarcastic.


And you respond in your typical style.. a straw man of the other person's position in an attempt to win an argument without actually addressing what the other person believes or says. Especially portraying me as a person who believes Jesus "pretended to be a man".

Jesus was a man. God is the flesh means He had flesh and blood just like you and I. The Gnostics believe Jesus just appeared human, I'm not a Gnostic.

The one coming on the horse is called "faithful and true", and has the name "King of kings and Lord of Lord's" written on His thigh. That's Jesus. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Then in 19-21 it says He who is on the horse wages war Himself.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
All i am saying is the way i read it, there is no being called up before the seventh and final seal is broken. The church isnt mentioned during the whole process until the 5th seal. Who do you think is going to be martyred? Puppydogs? if this so called "pre-tribulation" happens the martyrs will be jews? No it will not be the jews who get martyred. The world loves to crucify christians, WE will be the martyrs.

freestockphotos.com...

Here's the link maybe this will break it down for you.


Show me where it says "the church" in reference to the 5th seal. It does NOT mention "the church". Secondly, just as it was in the first century, when the Jews turn to Christ they will be "Christians". I never said "Christians" will not be martyred, I said "the church" will not by martyred by the antichrist. Where do you get the notion that Jews cannot be Christians? Jews were the very first Christians and Jews converted to Christianity before it was offered to Gentiles. And finally, in Christ we are no longer Jew, Gentile, male or female.

When the seals are opened on the scroll the "candlesticks" are in heaven. Christ identifies the candlesticks as the churches in chapter 1.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And you respond in your typical style.. a straw man of the other person's position in an attempt to win an argument without actually addressing what the other person believes or says.
No, I was trying to get you to make an argument, first.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Are you kidding me? Paul says we are symbolically Israel, but if you go to verse 5 of chapter 7 the text tells you that there will be 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed. That should tell you it's not talking about symbolic Jews, but literal Jews from the literal 12 tribes.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And you respond in your typical style.. a straw man of the other person's position in an attempt to win an argument without actually addressing what the other person believes or says.
No, I was trying to get you to make an argument, first.



The Word argues strongly on it's own. Christ is the rider on the horse in Revelation 19:19-21. He wages war Himself against the armies of the antichrist.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 



Exactly, until the church fails and is martyred in the 5th seal, by which God's will shall again fall on the jews shoulders in the seventh seal, and thoe who died in christ are called up first and those who managed to survive are transformed and we all meet together with Christ before Armageddon.


I think you're failing to acknowledge that "Saints" doesn't mean "church" . The church is the Bride of Christ, but "saints' have been a term to refer to the elect of God even in OT times before the church even existed.



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