Theists, Why Should I Believe?

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Your beliefs shape how you perceive reality, so if you want to perceive God, you have to first believe in what he is to allow yourself to experience that perception.

I agree that beliefs shape your perception of reality. I am incapable of believing in this god you speak of because its existence sure isn't apparent. In other words, I can't believe first, then perceive it. Belief would come as a result of perceiving it.

Just because you have experienced love doesn't mean you know what it is.

Sure. And you're asserting that god is love. So how do I distinguish god from love? Or are they indistinguishable?

The universe is intelligent energy. It is capable of learning, observing, and intelligent work. God is love/joy. God is the animator. Time moves forward because God is initiating the kinetic.

There doesn't seem to be convincing evidence of any of those things but I'm open to any coming along.

Originally posted by petrus4
It's difficult to answer this, OP; because I don't know anything about who you are, or your life experience. Some would take the very fact that you are asking this question, as being indicative that God is beginning to reach out to you.

Firstly, thanks for the links. Those are really cool.

There have been a few that have said something to the effect that "god is reaching out to you" or something. I don't feel that way at all. I'm simply fascinated by belief - what people believe and why - and specifically those things of a religious or spiritual nature since it's a departure from the rational thought we use in all other areas of life and this irrationality is celebrated as an admirable quality.

If someone on the street ran up to you claiming someone was walking on water it would be dismissed as madness and rightfully so. But an ancient book makes a similar claim and it is sincerely and deeply believed. How and why do we come to genuinely believe the impossible or the absurd?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
First, you need to know what to believe. Belief is recognizing the Holy Spirit. This is better defined as the preexistence of consciousness. Blasphemy is the only sin that will not be forgiven. Defined, this is denying the preexistence of consciousness. In other words, you are stating, through unbelief, that you think consciousness cannot be more than you. When we place ourselves above what preexisted ourselves, we are placing the self (I AM) above the consciousness that it originates from.

Thank you, Superior Ed. These are assertions, some of which appear in the bible.

The question is why should I or anyone believe these assertions? I mean, this is a fancy arrangement of ancient instructions combined with modern thought, but why should someone else believe it?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Your beliefs shape how you perceive reality, so if you want to perceive God, you have to first believe in what he is to allow yourself to experience that perception.

I agree that beliefs shape your perception of reality. I am incapable of believing in this god you speak of because its existence sure isn't apparent. In other words, I can't believe first, then perceive it. Belief would come as a result of perceiving it.

In the way the brain receives information, any information that conflicts with what one is willing to accept will not appear to exist to the person. Therefore, if the notion of such is already considered and is found to be unacceptable, then whenever the information is presented to you, you will not perceive it. So belief precedes perception in this way.

Just because you have experienced love doesn't mean you know what it is.

Sure. And you're asserting that god is love. So how do I distinguish god from love? Or are they indistinguishable?

They are indistinguishable. The more appropriate question would be, "how do you perceive love to be God?". The answer is to first, be open to the idea, then, in quiet meditation, feel joy and try to see that that joy is God.

The universe is intelligent energy. It is capable of learning, observing, and intelligent work. God is love/joy. God is the animator. Time moves forward because God is initiating the kinetic.

There doesn't seem to be convincing evidence of any of those things but I'm open to any coming along.

There is plenty of information and evidence that implies that the nature of all energy is intelligent energy. This is evident by the mere fact of your own existence. Intelligent energy translated literally means, the capacity to do intelligent work. As you can see energy is capable of organizing itself into an ever-increasing complexity of intelligent patterns and forms in order to effectively and efficiently carry out its purpose which is defined by what it is to be to observe and learn.

The only thing that is not evident about intelligent energy is that it is love which is synonymous with joy. But I assure you, that if you know yourself to be intelligent energy which you obviously are, at a moment when you feel that heightened ecstacy of beingness that is joy, you will know that that is what you are in your complete form. That is, if you haven't already completely disregarded such a notion which apparently is the case. Unfortunately.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
In the way the brain receives information, any information that conflicts with what one is willing to accept will not appear to exist to the person. Therefore, if the notion of such is already considered and is found to be unacceptable, then whenever the information is presented to you, you will not perceive it. So belief precedes perception in this way.

Then how do we know we're not employing confirmation bias? Any time one has a belief in something unproven they will find some way of supporting it. Sure, I could envision Love God if I wanted and probably find some feeling or thing that would make it seem more real, but enforcing some preconceived notion is rarely a pathway to the discovery of truth.

They are indistinguishable. The more appropriate question would be, "how do you perceive love to be God?". The answer is to first, be open to the idea, then, in quiet meditation, feel joy and try to see that that joy is God.

How is this not just attributing a strong emotional feeling as something magical? Even if this is what I thought, how does one establish that some visceral feeling is actually some external deity?

There is plenty of information and evidence that implies that the nature of all energy is intelligent energy. This is evident by the mere fact of your own existence.

The only thing evident by my existence is my existence. "I exist, therefore the nature of all energy is intelligent energy" is a non-sequitur. Support for your claim has to come in a form that is demonstrable to others.

Thanks for the conversation. I have enjoyed it and greatly appreciate your respectful discourse.

Question for you Drum ? Hypothetical.

If there were some convincing evidence, that there is a creator God ? Do you think all of mankind would happily fall in line and believe in God and worship him ? I'm only refering to one piece of objective evidence, of a creator, nothing else ? Also, what could prove the existance of a spiritual being in a material world? Nothing of course.

Originally posted by randyvs
Question for you Drum ? Hypothetical.

If there were some convincing evidence, that there is a creator God ? Do you think all of mankind would happily fall in line and believe in God and worship him ?

Some certainly might, though if we're talking about just a Deist-type god - a hands-off creator - what would be the point of worship?

Also, what could prove the existance of a spiritual being in a material world? Nothing of course.

I'm not so sure. Some claim that spiritual entities interfere with the physical world and human activity. That point at which such changes in the physical world occur should be measurable or detectable in some way. Though that alone would not prove the existence of a spiritual entity it would give us a place to start identifying one.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by smithjustinb
In the way the brain receives information, any information that conflicts with what one is willing to accept will not appear to exist to the person. Therefore, if the notion of such is already considered and is found to be unacceptable, then whenever the information is presented to you, you will not perceive it. So belief precedes perception in this way.

Then how do we know we're not employing confirmation bias?

We are. All knowledge is exactly that especially when applying the knowledge to something else to build upon the knowledge. When you "know" something, learning stops in accordance with the direction that the learning leading up to the knowledge was going. So if you think you know everything there is to know about quantum physics, you will not be capable of learning anything else about quantum physics until you accept the fact that you don't know, whether consciously or subconsciously. Knowledge is a confirmation bias.

Any time one has a belief in something unproven they will find some way of supporting it.

This is a good point. It is important to realize that unproven doesn't necessarily mean false. If the information is false, then whatever they think they are learning is ,in reality, what they are learning that 'is not'. By discovering what 'is not' can give you a clearer view of 'what is'. This makes accepting false beliefs valid as a tool for learning real truth.

If the information is unproven and true, then what is already known to be proven and true will interrelate perfectly with the unproven, true concept and things will make PERFECT sense. Then objective learning can commence.

I stress the word "perfect", because sometimes people are so strongly clinging to their beliefs that they are convinced that it is reality, even in the face of ample unbiased skepticism. Even though it is apparent to them that their idea doesn't make much sense, they will invent even more new ideas to support their already ludicrous idea. That is an example of the strength of the ego. They know in their hearts they are wrong but they won't admit it even to themselves. When an idea interrelates perfectly and makes perfect sense, you will unconditionally know it and know that you know it and know that it isn't just your ego talking when you support it.

This will usually be noticed by the fact that the concepts that it interrelates to come from something that has already been established as true. If you have to invent ideas to support your idea, then that's how you know what you are saying is untrue. I hope I'm conveying this clearly, not sure if I am getting my point across the way it is in my head.

Sure, I could envision Love God if I wanted and probably find some feeling or thing that would make it seem more real, but enforcing some preconceived notion is rarely a pathway to the discovery of truth.

As I said in my second paragraph, accepting false beliefs lead you on a path of learning what you think is true that is really untrue. Eventually though, you discover that your original idea that set the trajectory for the learning that followed was false and that will invalidate the entirity of information that you accepted along the way up to the point where you discovered that your original idea was untrue.

Thus, you can see that by learning what is untrue, you can disregard the idea of those things being true in the future. So basically, you are weeding out the false information to get a clearer view of the true information.

If you envision a love god, what follows, by the nature of what you are, as intelligent energy, will lead you on a path of learning. This path will either reveal truth or untruth. Either way, it is helpful and contributing to your purpose that is to learn. In the case of the love god, I believe you will find that the information is true. Either way, its worth a try.

They are indistinguishable. The more appropriate question would be, "how do you perceive love to be God?". The answer is to first, be open to the idea, then, in quiet meditation, feel joy and try to see that that joy is God.

How is this not just attributing a strong emotional feeling as something magical? Even if this is what I thought, how does one establish that some visceral feeling is actually some external deity?

It is not a deity. It is what it is. It will be established by you experiencing the profoundity of it and knowing that your experiences are valid. So, in other words, your life will take a ceaseless direction that you can't imagine could be possible. Due to the fact of the depth of the direction, this is how you will know it is true by experiencing it. But to experience it, first you have to not deny it as being possible.

I would say it is attributing a strong emotional feeling to what you are rather than something magical. You might could call it magical, because it has the power to heal. This is due to the progressive nature of intelligent energy. Cancer is intelligent energy but it is secondary to and dependent on the more complex human entirety. So information descends from greatest to least. If you stop the instreaming of information to the cancer as being anything but love, you will, by faith, progress forward in a way that eliminates the purpose for the cancer. In that sense, I guess you could say that you are learning that the cancer is going away. This requires faith. But faith can come through understanding and the understanding is what I possess that I am sharing.

All is intelligent energy in some form or another. Intelligent energy begins and ends with love. From the perspective of a human, it is somewhat appropriate to say that I am love learning myself to be love. At this point in time, I am unaware of the depth of what this implies, but I know that it is my destiny. So all begins and ends in love/joy. It is cyclical. If you play a C on a piano and a C an octave above it, this is the kind of potential difference you are working with. It is the same information, just at a different frequency. This allows for everything in between that is the learning process spawning from and arriving at the same information. In the case of cancer, it is love in one of its forms that is an appropriate catalyst for learning. When the lesson is learned, the cancer will leave.

Of course, I know I will sound largely like a raving lunatic for you because I'm sure by now you are still denying the power of love. And this is fine, to each his own.

There is plenty of information and evidence that implies that the nature of all energy is intelligent energy. This is evident by the mere fact of your own existence.

The only thing evident by my existence is my existence. "I exist, therefore the nature of all energy is intelligent energy" is a non-sequitur. Support for your claim has to come in a form that is demonstrable to others.

It is though. It is highly evident that energy (which is accepted by modern science to be what everything is in some form or another) is capable of organizing itslf into intelligent forms. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here having this conversation. These forms adapt. These forms increase in intelligent complexity and/or capacity. These forms come from 'inanimate' dust. From dust came single celled organisms. Then those grew into something larger, more adaptive, and more complex. And in turn, those grew into something larger, more adaptive, more versatile, and more complex. And after that, we came along, and look at all the intelligent crap we're capable of. We split atoms for fun man.

All energy is intelligent energy because this is what energy does. It learns in some form or another and learns enough to become animate. The animator is love. All is animate. All is love. Even when you see something still, don't forget that there are quantum particles in that form moving around at the speed of light. All is animate. All is love. All is intelligent energy. All is well.

Please read:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for the conversation. I have enjoyed it and greatly appreciate your respectful discourse.

You're welcome. I have enjoyed it as well. However "enjoyed" is past tense, and I intend to continue on with this discourse if you are willing to oblige.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Please read:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is much in your post that I would like to address, although categorical responses tend to get lengthy, and besides... you keep pointing me towards this thread so this is probably something you'd like to discuss.

I must admit that this is a unique and interesting proposition you've laid out. However, keep in mind I am a skeptic so I tend to be on the lookout for problem areas in propositions. As matter-of-factly I can put it, your hypothesis relies on some a priori assumptions and inductive reasoning. And when I've pressed for proofs it seems that it can only be achieved through subjective means. Your hypothesis could be 100% correct, but right now it's mired in some problems that would render it exempt from serious consideration by anyone applying basic scrutiny.

Please understand I'm not ripping on you or intending insult in any way. I think your hypothesis is cool & unique and doesn't harm or hate anyone. But when I look at the reasons given for why I should believe it I'm afraid there's not much I can latch on to. I would be interested to see if something comes up that would confirm your beliefs that could also pass the beginner's skeptic's Sniff Test.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Please read:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And when I've pressed for proofs it seems that it can only be achieved through subjective means. Your hypothesis could be 100% correct, but right now it's mired in some problems that would render it exempt from serious consideration by anyone applying basic scrutiny.

Yes, unfortunately, subjective analysis seems to be the only way you can really experience and know love at this point. So I guess I've shared with you all I have to share, as I see you are unwaivering in your disposition.

It's been cool having this discussion with you. Good luck to you and yours. Until next time.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


The danger here is that you may not recognize God's voice. This is not to say that you cannot learn the voice, but God only reveals Himself to those who are humble before Him. The fact that you are asking the question is revealing. I don't mean this in a judgmental way at all. We are all grievous sinners. There is no doubt that all of us are less than we could be in this world. Rising takes great effort. This is work that leads to reward. Taking is the easy way to reward. The problem is, raking reward always leads to suffering. Suffering for others is the direct way to reward that fills the soul. Until a person finds this love for others, God is silent in the domain of spiritual matters. Recognizing the voice that is always present takes love.

Love is the key to tuning the mind toward the image of God in the world. If a person is tuned to bias, prejudice, hatred, material rewards or the link, they will be blinded by the flaming sword of Genesis 3. This sword is the consuming fire that God uses to take apart our pride. Why is this important?

Pride is the single element of existence that creates a me and you dichotomy. Pride creates selfishness. It removes the deference we show to others in love. It reveals bias and prejudice in our own reflections and image. This image is our character to God.

Character reveals itself when viewed against a mirror. We can only see ourselves in reflection. When we look into the Bible, we see God and man. Some see only man. Why is this? A mirror only reflects other things. We cannot see God for the stained condition of our own character in the reflection. The image is distorted. God is there and is always there. Our own pride builds the foundation to stand above God in our mind. We are looking down on God in pride. In reality, God is trying to get us to look at Him and others in equality. Equal. Equity only comes from humility and respect for others. Pride is the fall in the Garden of Eden and the rest is history.

Each of us chooses our path in the garden. We can walk with God and others in humility and respect. We can walk alone in pride and toil. One way gives peace and satisfaction that contains the reward that lasts. The other ends in suffering. The right way starts with suffering first. Reward follows suffering. Suffering follows reward. There are no exceptions. If you smoke you get cancer. If you work to get a car, you own a car and receive the rewards of faster transportation. This opens the door to new reward and opportunity.

The fact that I can nail this truth is because I know the voice of God. If you know this truth as well, then you may be hearing the first few word of God in your spirit. All you need to do for the answer is knock. God is good to His word.

Matt 7

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Theists,

Why should I believe? Why should anyone believe?

Why don't you try asking God that same question instead of just us mere mortals? I would imagine He would be able to answer it better than we could.

And it makes a whole lot more sense to do that than to send out positive energy into the universe and ask its divine help, like some do. lol

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I would say that there is no reason to believe except to gain insight, understanding and awareness, and in so doing recover one's sense of humor and joy de vivre. If you are perfectly happy, satisfied, joyful, fulfilled, fruitful and beneficially productive and helpful then there's no need, because if so, then you are already fulfilling God's purpose for your life, unless of course you would like to have a direction towards which you would like to express your gratitude and appreciation.. and perhaps most of all your love in kind, for the gift of life that you enjoy. Other than that there is no need because you'll have already found the "good pasture" so to speak.

Oh, there is one other possibility, if you were to pursue it to it ultimate conclusion and that would be, ironically, to "slay the dragon of should, and should't" (Joseph Campbell) and be "set free for freedom's sake and therefore free to love as we are loved." (St. Paul, paraphrased) ie: to be most fully and authenticity self expressed. And, I suppose if you are, like Jesus, a "rebel with a cause" (that's me).

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I know you're only asking so that you can ridicule peoples' beliefs in order to give yourself a dopamine high, but I'll try to help you anyway.

The first thing you need to do is accept God as a possibility. Your brain has accepted atheism as truth, and because of that, nothing that is said or done can provide you with evidence of God's existence, until you lose your faith in the nonexistence of God... Empty your cup so I can give you some kool-aid!

Second, you need to understand the difference in possible and probable. You assume all that exists is probable because it exists. You must lose faith in this belief as well. You need to know that just because something is possible, it does not make it probable. Just look at the complexity of our reality - if this does not humble you into a childlike mindset, you have surely gone astray. If you want to believe in a god, you must be like a child, in that you see something to be so complex that you know it's not probable.

Last but not least - you must accept that all science can ever do is give possible solutions to how God accomplishes his works - it cannot explain away God. Once you accept this you can move on to trying to figure out which God is the real god.


Some of my reasons for believing in God are:
1. I was raised by Baptists.
2. Complex life exists in a reality that seems to be trying to simplify everything.
3. Mind over matter and miracles exist in contrary to laws of our reality.
4. The improbability of many anomalies can only be made feasible with an existence of God.
5. Enormous amounts of matter exists in a reality that has never shown to spontaneously produce any of it.


I know once you form a belief it's really hard to break free from that belief, so...
good luck finding God.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
I know you're only asking so that you can ridicule peoples' beliefs in order to give yourself a dopamine high, but I'll try to help you anyway.

I don't recall doing that a single time in this thread.

Your brain has accepted atheism as truth

Atheism is not a thing which can be accepted as truth.

Last but not least - you must accept that all science can ever do is give possible solutions to how God accomplishes his works - it cannot explain away God. Once you accept this you can move on to trying to figure out which God is the real god.

Science simply helps us detect and measure things in the universe. I don't look at science as the arbiter of the god question, but I am certain that if there were a deity in the universe we could probably detect it through scientific means.

Before we can find out which god is the real god we have to find out if god is real. So far neither scientists nor theologians nor philosophers have established the existence of any such thing.

Some of my reasons for believing in God are:
1. I was raised by Baptists.
2. Complex life exists in a reality that seems to be trying to simplify everything.
3. Mind over matter and miracles exist in contrary to laws of our reality.
4. The improbability of many anomalies can only be made feasible with an existence of God.
5. Enormous amounts of matter exists in a reality that has never shown to spontaneously produce any of it.

1. Inculcation during youth is powerful.
2. Complex life exists. Entropy isn't really a factor.
3. "Mind over matter" is only a description of certain kinds of thought. "Miracles" have never been demonstrated to exist.
4. God has no explanatory power for anything in the universe, let alone anomalies.
5. Who said matter has to be spontaneously produced?

I know once you form a belief it's really hard to break free from that belief, so...
good luck finding God.

I don't have any religious or spiritual belief, therefore I am always subject to change and have nothing to "break free" from. I am not trying to find god(s) either. I'm trying to find out why people believe things in a religious context that they'd dismiss in any other.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

If you don't try to find God yourself you will not believe the people who have found God as having valid reasons in believing. In your mind you'll rationalize it as "a crutch" or "delusions". Also you won't find God unless your pride has been sucked out of you and turn to Him. I certainly know that when I was an atheist I always asked such things and debated theists not because I truly wanted to find Him, but had other not so noble or intellectually honest reasons. God is near the broken-hearted, or so scriptures say, and from my experiences that is true. It wasn't until I found Him I realized how utterly fallible human wisdom is.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Your problem is you think there is a deity you need to look for, when the actual truth is a Natural law that permeates all things. Time itself. If Time did not exist, no particle of time could exist.

God is the light within the mind.

Originally posted by filosophia
Your problem is you think there is a deity you need to look for, when the actual truth is a Natural law that permeates all things. Time itself. If Time did not exist, no particle of time could exist.

God is the light within the mind.

It seems you've claimed that god is an "actual truth" (which in turn is a natural law), and that god is time, and that god is a "light within the mind". I'm not sure what that means.

Also, what is a "particle of time"?

Originally posted by 547000
If you don't try to find God yourself
Also you won't find God unless your pride has been sucked out of you and turn to Him.
God is near the broken-hearted, or so scriptures say,
It wasn't until I found Him

It sounds like the reason you believe is because you seriously wanted to and subsequently made it happen.

Were you really an atheist or were you just not-yet-christian?