The Skinwalker , A Fascinating Subject

...re: the use of the word shaman... there was a time, not too long ago, when that word referred only to medicine people of the far east...

...when internet chat rooms and message boards came into the picture, it became more and more common for someone to refer to north american indigenous medicine people via that term, which usually resulted in lip-pursing and/or snickering among ndns...

...the standard response was "shamans are in tibet"... some would take the time to explain why they didnt approve of that term... no matter how nice they were about it, more often than not the non-ndn would take offense - because - their ego was more important than respectfully trying to learn about a culture they didnt understand...

...the most common perception was that the use of the word shaman rather than medicine people was yet another attempt to make all aborginals the same culturally regardless of which continent they lived on... we called that pan-ndn-ism and it was a bad thing back then...

...now, all these years later, pan-ndn-ism no longer means what it used to mean and that wasnt due to just non-ndns sticking their nose in ndn affairs... iow - its not just a bad thing anymore (at least not on the surface, imo)... the same applies to skinwalkers and the many perceptions people have about that...

...its the plague of the ever-morphing english language... examples are everywhere... politically speaking, the terms conservative and liberal have been bastardized so much that the current usage has zero connection with the original usage...

...anyways, just tidbits for thought (or not)...

reply to post by Omega85


Well, this is the first time I'v heard of them...I don't know anything about them except what you put in your thread, but I recommend checking the BEKS thread out...I'm not sure if you have heard of them or not but they are children with full black eyes (no whites) and I encountered one and it freaked me out they usually ask to play with you in the middle of the night they are demons in children form.

Mhh, very interesting.
These skinwalkers have many similarities with the viking/germanic berserks or, even more, with the ulfhednar.
Both are warrior-shamans, that can change into a bear/wolf or summon the spirit of these animals in their own body.
Ulfhednar are credited with a lot of speed and the wore wolfskin-cloaks, while the berserks are said to have possessed a battle-frenzy (berserkergang), which made them invincible and a lot stronger than normal man and they wore a bearhide-cloak.

It is speculated that these gained their powers by eating the brain/heart of the respective animal and ingesting some sort of potion.


Could it be that as the viking left America, some of these were left behind and met with the Navajo?


Mhh, seeing as I try to reconstruct how to become a berserk, I might travel to the US sometimes...

reply to post by Gingo


your magic potion can be found in the forest, usually under a tree.Amanita_Muscaria

the rest is a ritual performed in order to identify with/Invoke the Egregore of your Power-Animal/ Totem, which should have been revealed to you previously in a vision/initiation [you cannot pick and choose them]

The muscaria theory is unlikely, since it has many side-effects that would severely hinder battle-effectiveness.
It is more likely that they used a type of ledum palustre and other herbs, since beer made from palustre had the reputation of invoking a blood frenzy (wifes made ready their men's cerement when they would go drinking it).

And while you cannot choose your totem, it can change over time.

reply to post by Gingo


not if you "filter" it through somebody else's kidneys 1st

and wouldn't that be mead, and not beer?

the brotherhood of the bear specialized in the two-handed axe: one in each hand, so unless you have a Schwarzenegger type physique, i hope that's not your totem though.

though i've always had an unusual* romance with Asatru and germanic mythology since i was eight and encountered them reading Bullfinch's "Mythology", i am no expert by any means, though i can state this with confidence: the Aesir and Wanes [Vanir] all seem to be shamanic types, and are surrounded by shamanic artifacts/paraphernalia: the cloak of feathers, Odin's raven's Hugin and Munin, the world tree Yggdrasil , Odins sacrifice to himself on Yggdrasil for the runes, and his antinomian behavior...

there is a post-Aryan-Schism influence, in that serpents and dragons for example Jormungand and Nidhogg, are considered evil.

the thing most people don't understand about the norsemen is that they were for the most part european pagans who chose to go north as christianity began to encroach eventually there was no further north to go, which resulted in the viking invasions.

*[because i don't have germanic ancestry unless its a touch of visigoth or viking through my spaniard ancestors]

the OP seems to be having a bit of trouble, so thank you for helping me keep this thread going, was having a bit of trouble myself and was going to close the tab on this thread but Sky-Brother made a rare appearance and called to me to go flying with him, then my negative-nabob made a rare mistake and angered me by reminding that one cannot fly with broken wings.

so here i am and remain.

i'll be replying to one of Hadriana's posts later with more details as it's easy to see how you may think there is a similarity to skinwalking, or at least to what is generally believed.

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


:LOL: Shamans are in Siberia [or Tunguska if you want to be specific]:
wiki source:en.wikipedia.org...

The term "shaman" is a loan from the Turkic word šamán, the term for such a practitioner, which also gained currency in the wider Turko-Mongol and Tungusic cultures in ancient Siberia.[6] Shamans were known as "priests" in the region of where Ural–Altaic languages spoken.[7]

the female term is Shamanka


and yes it's wrong to refer to a medicine person as a Shaman/Shamanka

not only every tribe/culture has it's own name for it's shamanistic, or derived from shamanic, practices , but there are no true shamans in existence at present as the material following shows.

you have to laugh at wiki sometimes has this following section and yet in it's 1st paragraphs it indulges in this error :

Criticism of the term “shaman” or “shamanism”

Certain anthropologists, most notably Alice Kehoe in her book Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exploration in Critical Thinking, are highly critical of the term. Part of this criticism involves the notion of cultural appropriation.[citation needed] This includes criticism of New Age and modern Western forms of Shamanism, which may not only misrepresent or 'dilute' genuine indigenous practices but do so in a way that, according to Kehoe, reinforces racist ideas such as the Noble Savage.

Kehoe is highly critical of Mircea Eliade's work. Eliade, being a philosopher and historian of religions rather than an anthropologist, had never done any field work or made any direct contact with 'shamans' or cultures practicing 'shamanism', though he did spend four years studying at the University of Calcutta in India where he received his doctorate based on his Yoga thesis and was acquainted with Mahatma Gandhi. According to Kehoe, Eliade's 'shamanism' is an invention synthesized from various sources unsupported by more direct research. To Kehoe, what some scholars of shamanism treat as being definitive of shamanism, most notably drumming, trance, chanting, entheogens and hallucinogenics, spirit communication and healing, are practices that

* exist outside of what is defined as shamanism and play similar roles even in non-shamanic cultures (such as the role of chanting in Judeo-Christian rituals)
* in their expression are unique to each culture that uses them and cannot be generalized easily, accurately or usefully into a global ‘religion’ such as shamanism.

Because of this, Kehoe is also highly critical of the notion that shamanism is an ancient, unchanged, and surviving religion from the Paleolithic period.

Mihály Hoppál also discusses whether the term “shamanism” is appropriate. He recommends using the term “shamanhood”[186] or “shamanship”[187] for stressing the diversity and the specific features of the discussed cultures. This is a term used in old Russian and German ethnographic reports at the beginning of the 20th century. He believes that this term is less general and places more stress on the local variations,[67] and it emphasizes also that shamanism is not a religion of sacred dogmas, but linked to the everyday life in a practical way.[188] Following similar thoughts, he also conjectures a contemporary paradigm shift.[186] Also Piers Vitebsky mentions, that despite really astonishing similarities, there is no unity in shamanism. The various, fragmented shamanistic practices and beliefs coexist with other beliefs everywhere. There is no record of pure shamanistic societies (although, as for the past, their existence is not impossible).[189]

[Facepalm]
the reason there is no record of pure shamanistic societies is because any such societies went the way of lemuria and atlantis; i.e. they are not part of the historical record at all.

speaking for myself, i suscribe to the Chaoist definition:

From The Psychonaut

SHAMANISM IS OUR oldest magical and mystical tradition. It is from shamanism that all religious arts and magical
sciences originate. The shamanic traditions are still practiced on all the southern continents — Australia, Africa, and
South America. It is primarily found in hunting societies but survives also in semi-settled village life where it takes on more of
the character of witch-doctoring. The encroachments of modern civilization have almost destroyed shamanism in North America,
Oceania, Northern Asia, and within the Arctic Circle. Some shamanic knowledge survived in European witchcraft, while in
the Middle East shamanism became swallowed up in the priestly cults of classical civilizations.

Two conclusions can be drawn from an examination of remaining shamanic cultures and from records of those now extinct.
Firstly, despite the enormous geographical separation between shamanic cultures, they share almost identical methods.
Secondly, it is shamanic knowledge and power that contemporary magicians seek to rediscover. The basic principles of magic, like
the basic principles of science, do not change, but they can become lost. Shamanism presents a very full magical technology
which resumes all occult themes. Mankind now stands in greater need of these abilities than at any time since the first aeon, if he is
to understand rather than destroy himself. Shamanism once guided all human societies and kept them in equilibrium with their
environment for thousands of years. All occultism is an attempt to win back that awesome lost wisdom. Let us look then, at what the
traditions of shamanism hold.

Shamanic power cannot be progressively accumulated like other technology. A shaman will be lucky if his own apprentices
make any advance beyond his own achievements. Shamanic powers are so difficult to master that a tradition requires a continual
influx of talent just to prevent itself from degenerating. For this reason shamans usually describe their tradition as having declined
from past glories. Only an occasional, exceptional practitioner can win back some of the more legendary powers.

Central to shamanism is the perception of an otherworld or series of otherworlds. This type of astral or aetheric dimension
containing various powers entities and forces allows real effects to be created in this world. The shaman's soul journeys through this
dimension while in ecstatic or drug-induced state of trance. The journey may be undertaken for divinatory knowledge, to cure
sickness, to deliver a blow to enemies, or to find game animals. Prospective shamans are usually selected from those with a
nervous disposition. They may either be assigned to shamanic instruction or are driven to it by a power present in the shamanic
culture. Initiation invokes a journey into the otherworld, a meeting with spirits and a death-rebirth experience. In the deathrebirth
experience, the candidate has a vision of his body being dismembered, often by fantastic beings or animal spirits, and then
reassembled from the wreckage. The new body invariably contains an extra part often described as an additional bone or an inclusion
of magical quartz stones or sometimes an animal spirit. This experience graphically symbolizes the location of the aetheric
force field within the body or the addition of various extra powers to it.

In most shamanic systems this aetheric force is exuded through the naval region for short range magics, although it can be
sent through the eyes or hands instead. It is the same as the Chi or Ki or Kundalini or aura.

The shamanic tradition exhibits a full range of magical themes. Exorcism and curing are the main skills shared with the
community, and these are usually undertaken in trance and ecstatic states during which an otherworld journey is made to seek a
cure. Magical attack and protection may be performed for clients, and shamans themselves will frequently fight each other for supremacy, often assuming their otherworld animal shapes for this purpose.

Some shamanists cultivate enormous physiological control with which to resist extremes of heat, cold, and pain. Firewalking Shamanism in which fierce heat is magically prevented from scorching flesh is a very common feature of this tradition and occurs worldwide. Congress with the spirit world is extensive and includes various nature spirits, animal and plant entities and servitors, the
shades of the dead, sexual entities like incubi and succubi and usually a horned god, even in lands with no horned animals.
Egress into the otherworld is made through perilous clashing gates, comparable to the modern conception of the Abyss. Dream as well
as trance is an important method of obtaining access to the otherworld. Shamanic tools are highly varied but usually include a noise
making device, such as a drum or snake bone rattle, to call spirits and induce trance, as well as various power objects, most commonly
quartz crystals. The extraordinary traditions of shamanism are the fountainhead of all occult systems, and it is to shamanism
that we must look if we wish to pick up the pieces of magic, man's oldest science, and use them again.

Copyright © 1987 Peter J. Carroll, the moral authority of the author has been asserted.

being a shaman is more like a state of being than a role or practice.
thus one is always becoming a shaman, but never truly arrives at the goal, it's the journey that counts.

note to moderator: sorry about the large quote but if i edit it, relevant info will be left out and i can't find a link to the whole text to point to. i have asserted the moral authority of the author to cover all bases.

...its the plague of the ever-morphing english language...

actually the "problem" is much older than that:

‘Now in the Egyptian language, this sole relic of a primitive world, there are a fair number of words with two meanings, one of which is the exact opposite of the other. Let us suppose, if such an obvious piece of nonsense can be imagined, that in German the word "strong" meant both "strong" and "weak"; that in Berlin the noun "light" was used to mean both "light" and "darkness"; that one Munich citizen called beer "beer", while another used the same word to speak of water: this is what the astonishing practice amounts to which the ancient Egyptians regularly followed in their language. How could anyone be blamed for shaking his head in disbelief? . . .’ (Examples omitted.)

(Ibid., 7): ‘In view of these and many similar cases of antithetical meaning (see the Appendix) it is beyond doubt that in one language at least there was a large number of words that denoted at once a thing and its opposite. However astonishing it may be, we are faced with the fact and have to reckon with it.’

The author goes on to reject an explanation of these circumstances which suggests that two words might happen by chance to have the same sound, and is equally firm in repudiating an attempt to refer it to the low stage of mental development in Egypt:

Sigmund Freud:The Antithetical Meaning of Primal Words
books.google.com.pr... 7RgD8X8kbB0PrEiU&hl=en&ei=O11lToeQJMy2tgepo5mRCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=The%20Antithetical%20Meaning%20of% 20Primal%20Words&f=false

then there are code words and the complete redefining of words example the legal profession, but don't get me started.

it is beyond doubt that in one language at least there was a large number of words that denoted at once a thing and its opposite. However astonishing it may be, we are faced with the fact and have to reckon with it.’

that language is presently known as Glossolalia: it is the original, true, language of the human race, which was "lost" at Babel, the primal tongue of fire,ecstasy, angels and dreams.
being the original language of the unconscious mind, everyone who hears a statement in this language interprets/hears a different thing, usually what you need to hear, it's basically the hard-wired machine code of the human brain/body.

sometimes babies will make completely intelligible statements in their mother tongue before they are supposed to be able to speak at all, it just gets ignored as imaginary.

yup glossolalia =baby talk with a smaller vocabulary, it just get's swamped and overwritten by mother tongue before baby can get it's word count up, which is quite easy, as unlike with human languages, the word is the thing, and doesn't just symbolize it.

a proper shamanic initiation includes learning a "new" magical language, if you understand and parse machine code, you can do more with a computer than you can do with windows,mac os, or the linux "dialects"

reply to post by hadriana

Originally posted by hadriana
What I'd like to know is if the skinwalker actually merges with the skin, and goes forth as himself, with no shifting of consciousness but with a physical shift in his body, or if the skinwalker mentally merges with a target-species type animal and then goes forth using that animal's body with it's consciousness subjected.

My guess is on the later.

My guess is that the requirements of killing someone close to you are to assure people that this sort of powerful person is rare, and evil, and to discourage people from trying to tamper with magic this powerful.

What would it do to a psyche to murder someone you loved and cherished? It would have to mean that you would want magickal power more than ANYTHING. I suspect that is where the truth is. The talk of going to abandoned places to practice this sort of magic leads me to believe the same- that to practice this magic would be all consuming- my guess is that the person you'd really have to sacrifice is yourself, and thus the magic is both trans formative and sacrifice transforms the magic, making it very, very powerful indeed, but also, it seems like it would make the practitioner prone to prefer extreme isolation.

great post i've held off replying due to the power going down these past few days [irene became a hurricane passing over PR] despite the power company having fixed everything 4 days after going out in my part of san juan
[junkies stealing the cables not slowness on the power company's part]

shape shifting, and it's psycho-spiritual equivalent refereed to by chaoists as Metamorphosis, is either a skill/ability [to those born with the talent] or a practice/technique by the "wikked" [those who know]

a skinwalker is a being of the supernatural order of things, though originally a human, he/she has become, often through ritual/intent, a creature of The Hidden Side of Creation. thus shape-shifting is an article in their Medicine Bag/Bag of Tricks, as it were.

i've heard whispers that through the proper rituals and conditions, one of them is to have No broken bones in ones body, it is possible to steal another persons Soul/Personality and literally become that person. a physical transformation of the aggressors flesh will occur naturally though slowly without any need for extras, as the body reflects the soul, but if shape-shifting is already in ones bag of tricks...
oh, and i need to point out that this from the old world and not america, those whispers that is.

would it be possible to steal another persons memories/knowledge/skillset/...
without "losing oneself"? like the Face_Dancers of the Dune universe?

A Face Dancer is a type of human in Frank Herbert's science fiction Dune universe. A servant caste of the Bene Tleilax, Face Dancers are shapeshifters, and their name is derived from their ability to change their physical appearance at will.

Originally, Face Dancers were Tleilaxu trained to mimic others using acting and makeup, enhanced by plastic surgery. As time went on, the Tleilaxu began to use genetic manipulation to enhance natural ability in phenotypic plasticity, so that Face Dancers could change height, increase and decrease apparent mass, change coloring and texture, and change facial features.

In time the Face Dancers became genetic eunuchs, sterile creatures with full sentience but no sense of self and a genetically-programmed loyalty to the Tleilaxu Masters. The Tleilaxu control them like all their creations by forcing them into a hypnotic state with some predefined sound (often a specific humming or whistling noise).[1][2][3]

Throughout most of the Dune timeline, only the Bene Gesserit-trained can detect a Face Dancer, typically by recognizing signature pheromone scents or other micro-indicators. Face Dancers are liable to give away their identities, though, since they lack the memories of the people they replace. Later in the series, the Tleilaxu give them the ability to acquire these memories as well.

At the beginning of Heretics of Dune, the Bene Tleilax feel ready to take control of the Imperium. They have achieved their long-term plan of developing Face Dancers who are perfect mimics, able to take mind prints of the people they imitate and possess all their memories. This leaves an ordinary person with no real way of detecting a replacement; the Tleilaxu believe that the Bene Gesserit cannot detect these new Face Dancers either. The Tleilaxu intend to take control of the other powers in the Imperium by replacing their leaders with Face Dancers. However, the Tleilaxu plan is ultimately ruined by its flaws. The Tleilaxu have never tested the Face Dancers over long periods independent of a master's control. It develops that, after playing their roles for too long, the new Face Dancers come to think of themselves as the people they have printed and forget their Tleilaxu origins. They effectively become the people they are mimicking, passing beyond the control of the Tleilaxu. Nor are the new Face Dancers undetectable to the Bene Gesserit.
In the last chapter of the book, Marty and Daniel themselves mention independent Face Dancers:

"[Tleilaxu Masters] have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them." "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and..." "It's personas we take, Marty." "Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

in another of Herbert's dune stories set in a future even further than the events of dune humans not only have access to there ancestor's memories experiences but seem to have face dancer abilities as well the transmission of knowledge is a central pillar of the society described.
reply to post by Gingo


oh and in an aside to Gingo [ this is for you too hadriana], it is very important when being possessed/ridden by ones power-animal it is very important to keep it confined within the limits of your aura, or you will suffer from the loss of self/personality erosion known as Over-Shadowing.

reply to post by pussycat


You should share your experience. I'd like to hear your experience

reply to post by sbctinfantry


I've had botulism before and it was excruciating and almost lethal. I would guess that this is a good idea of what may have fueled the idea of corpse powder as well, especially before people were aware of such things.