Jesus said, "Away from me Satan...", therefore he is not Messiah

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posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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This comes from the story of the temptation of Jesus, as recorded in Matthew chapter 4.

My conclusions are based on what or who Jesus understood Satan to be. I've therefore found a Jewish description, from someone who should have some credibility.



A Little Bit About Me
My name is Mordechai Housman. I live in a very Jewish village in New York State. I am Hassidic, a fifth-generation Karlin-Stolin Chosid by patrilineal descent, though my ancestors on both sides have been Chassidim of various types ever since the Bal Shem Tov's times. (The Bal Shem Tov, born in the year 1698, was the founder of modern Chassidus.)
. . .
My father's family has been Karlin-Stoliner Chassidim for five generations.
. . .
My father of blessed memory was born in the Old City of Jerusalem, and had his bris milah (Covenant of Circumcision) at the Koisel -- the Western Wall (back when that was possible, before the Israeli War of Independence -- my father was born in 1927). His father and grandfather lived in Jerusalem. Before that they lived in Hebron, and before that they came from Hungary over, 150 years ago.




Does Judaism Believe in Satan?
The Christians don't understand how an angel of G-d can try to seduce people to disobey G-d, so they came to the unsupported conclusion that Satan must have rebelled against G-d.

This is completely contrary to everything Judaism believes. We reject that interpretation entirely.

(then follows a long summary of Willie Wonka with comparison of Wilkinson/Slugworth character)

Christians take Slugworth at face value: a reprehensible competitor who will stop at nothing to undo Wonka. And that's how they view Satan.

Jews do not see it that way, and we never have. Just as Slugworth is really Wilkinson doing what Wonka asked him to do, Satan is also not working for himself.


The temptation of Jesus to be the Messiah, begins at his baptism.


MT 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Notice the two characters introduced here: 1) Spirit of God 2) Voice from heaven. If the Spirit had already descended upon Jesus, then the voice must be from an angel. The words spoken are reminiscent of the messianic verses of Psalm 2


PS 2:7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.

PS 2:8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

PS 2:9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;

The third temptation


MT 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

What was being offered by the angel was none other than what Davidic Messianic status offered. Jesus could just as easily done the same that King David had done, by bowing down to the angel of YHWH, as representative of God.


1CH 21:15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

16 David looked up and saw the angel of the LORD standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown.

17 David said to God, "Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? O LORD my God, let your hand fall upon me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people."


No, Jesus did not do what David did, bow down to the angel and worship God through him. Jesus told him to go away. Thus did Jesus reject being Messiah, and ruler over all the nations of the Earth.

I have read some Jewish commentators who suggest that God and Satan are merely two faces that YHWH presents. Thus can be understood the concept of YHWH inciting David in 2 Samuel 24:1 and Satan inciting David in 1 Chronicles 21:1. If that were the case, then bowing down to the one would be the same as bowing to the other. So David took it to be, and so he did.

What I suggest then is that the spirit anointing that Jesus received was greatly more and of different meaning than would be oil anointing from priest or prophet to sit on a throne and rule the nations of the world.

The anointing of Christ is as much higher than any anointing of Messiah as are the heavens above the mountain of Zion.




posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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www.abovetopsecret.com...
If you're interested in learning about the biblical concept of the Messiah. Then go to my thread. Do you believe Jesus is God or do you believe in the Trinity?



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 



Notice the two characters introduced here: 1) Spirit of God 2) Voice from heaven. If the Spirit had already descended upon Jesus, then the voice must be from an angel. The words spoken are reminiscent of the messianic verses of Psalm 2

You have it all wrong. God is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at once.
Meaning he can present him self before Jesus, and also speak from the heavens.
And the rest of your interpretations are just that, a bad interpretation.

Also, you say this is based on who Jesus understood Satan to be...
How could you even know what Jesus was thinking?
edit on 19-8-2011 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by ManOfGod267
You know, I could take that as an attempt at thread hijacking.
Trolling and Abuse:


Trolling and Abuse: Events of trolling and related abuse (including "thread hijacking") will result in a 3-day posting ban.

I'll be a good sport though, and read your thread



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
16 David looked up and saw the angel of the LORD standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown.

17 David said to God, "Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? O LORD my God, let your hand fall upon me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people."




Sorry, but are waay misinterpereting. They did not bow to the angel, although it is totally acceptable to bow to an angel, but not to worship it. You have Moses falling on his face before Korach, he was not worshipping him, it is an act of humility, as is wearing sackcloth, to repent for the brazeness of acting without consultation.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


ATS is a forum site. I'm still getting used to it.
Everyone post links on replies.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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And as Jesus said to Satan so will I say to the teaching in which you site. "Satan get thee behind me"
2nd



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


You posted the thread.
Could you at least reply?



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by ManOfGod267


Everyone post links on replies.

Sorry, I was shocked to see a link pop up so fast, that's all. To answer your questions though:


Do you believe Jesus is God or do you believe in the Trinity?

My answers are tentative, I reserve the right to change my mind at any moment.

The Orthodox, Catholic Trinity? Absolutely Not!

What the Ancient of Days is (undefinable spirit), so also is the Christ. The spirit of the man Jesus, either is the Christ, or has a share in the Christ. Can't quite narrow it down further.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Yeah, I thought the link will be good to share with you. Anyway interesting thread. You mentioned before you're a Deist or something similar. How does all this play out in faith?



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by GmoS719


Also, you say this is based on who Jesus understood Satan to be...
How could you even know what Jesus was thinking?

I'm only guessing, I'm afraid.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by GmoS719


You posted the thread.
Could you at least reply?

Patience, I'm only one slow man. .. And now I have to go baby sit. I'll have very much to catch up to, I fear, when
I get back.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Ah I see.
Yeah, religion is taboo. lol
Even on this site.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by ManOfGod267


You mentioned before you're a Deist or something similar. How does all this play out in faith?

You also mentioned being a Deist. I'm currently going with Panentheist Humanist. As long as humans are seeking a divine explanation, it is part of humanism to attempt a helping hand. Or something like that.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


would a little clarity to the whole thing help.. I know many christians never let FACTS get in the way of what they believe

You must get throught the first minute or two as it is the 12th part of a fascinating series.

.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Well, the angel of the LORD is Christs pre-incarnate form. Often he had been called the "Word" in his ministry. The book of Genesis clearly states "in the beginning there was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God".

Why should Jesus bow down to an angel? By what right did Satan have to call on the Lord of Hosts to bow down to him? It is written that when Christ was crucified the angels wept and the sky grew dark. Why would the very earth itself shudder at the death of an ordinary man and the sky go dark?

God would never tell an angel to go and seduce his people, it was for that very reason God cursed Satan to crawl on his belly when he came in the guise of a serpent on legs and seduced eve into eating from the forbidden tree of knowledge, after she and adam fell from grace. God is against ALL sin, he cannot stand the sight of it and disobedience to his laws is SIN and the wages of sin is death. You fall into Satan's deception by believing his is good when he is NOT. Human's don't need Satan's help to commit sin, we can do that on our own very well thanks to him. You decieve yourself by believing his is good.

Your beliefs, however are your right to believe, as my beliefs are my right to believe. Left to its own devices humanity will not survive. Without God we will tear ourselves apart. The very idea that God would have one of his angels "seduce" (which is an evil word and full of sin) is ludicrous and tantamount to saying that God himself is evil because only an evil God would sanction the use of evil for the purpose of tricking people into damnation. Now, i don't know what kind of God you serve, but that is not my God.
edit on 19-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 05:46 PM
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reply to post by rebeldog
I'm afraid that video didn't help clarify anything to me. It had a lot of fast and loose use of English words as if sounding similar gives them the same definition.
Example:

Ark is from a semitic root meaning box, a boat is a box (noah's ark)
ark of the covenant is a box.

Indo-european boot, box. a boat is a box, a trunk is a box, a boot on your foot is a box.

That has nothing to do with an arch of the moon. Completely different etymology.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000


the angel of the LORD is Christs pre-incarnate form.

I'm aware that Christians often read that back into the Old Testament. I'm not aware of any verse where that would be the logical reading though.


The book of Genesis clearly states "in the beginning there was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God".

That's actually John chapter 1. It's a bit of a stretch to equate "and God said" with the preexisting Word spoken of in John.


Why should Jesus bow down to an angel? By what right did Satan have to call on the Lord of Hosts to bow down to him? It is written that when Christ was crucified the angels wept and the sky grew dark. Why would the very earth itself shudder at the death of an ordinary man and the sky go dark?

Again, equating Jesus with the Lord of Hosts is a probable assumption based on reading back into the Old Testament. You'll have to show me where it is written that the angels wept. I do recall the story of darkness at about 3 pm. Matthew 27:51-53 relate the earthquake and dead holy people rising as a fulfillment of Daniel 12:1-2. Thereby claiming the arrival of "The Last Days".


God would never tell an angel to go and seduce his people, it was for that very reason God cursed Satan to crawl on his belly when he came in the guise of a serpent on legs and seduced eve into eating from the forbidden tree of knowledge,

You'll have to produce the verse that identifies the cursed snake as Satan. It isn't clear from the Gen. 3 story.
Edit to Add:


The very idea that God would have one of his angels "seduce" (which is an evil word and full of sin) is ludicrous and tantamount to saying that God himself is evil because only an evil God would sanction the use of evil for the purpose of tricking people into damnation.

I'm not advocating for Satan here, or for the OT "god" for that matter. I'm merely pointing out that Jesus didn't accept the offer of being the Messiah. Can you think of Christ as being greater than Messiah?

edit on 19-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 

What I suggest then is that the spirit anointing that Jesus received was greatly more and of different meaning than would be oil anointing from priest or prophet to sit on a throne and rule the nations of the world.

The anointing of Christ is as much higher than any anointing of Messiah as are the heavens above the mountain of Zion.
I have dealt with this topic some on other threads. I have a few different takes on it depending on what is specifically being looked into.
One would be that Jesus was already the son of God before he was born, having had some sort of existence with God previously.
Baptism, anointing, blessing, and declarations would not have any bearing on his status. It would only serve the function of symbology to fit a particular expectation of people present and future.
No celebration or songs being sung to announce his arrival were necessary to indicate who he was. An honored seat in the temple was not necessary to show he was a prophet. No crown on his head was necessary to indicate his noble character.
No piles of dead bodies of the enemy were necessary to show his power to rule since his kingdom was of a spiritual nature and his enemy was ignorance and hatred. No lands were necessary to give him pleasure since he could create a world at will.

edit on 19-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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Christ and Messiah mean the same thing - the anointed. The word Christ is just the greek form of the hebrew word.

He definately owns the title and has the power over the mysteries. The various different churches refer to his mysteries as sacraments, and they are basically mimmicking what it is he can do himself in the spiritual. I would like to eplain to you a bit about an anointing if you wouldn't mind, because it goes to the very heart of the word Messiah and Christ.

Baptism (water) is always first. The next mystery is the anointing. The catholics refer to the second mystery as confirmation/chrismatin compared to the gnostics who called it chrism. The gnostics believed, that if a person was to have the experience of the chrism that all the other mysteries would be experienced. The key to have Jesus do this for you (because he is the Messiah) and not some priest is to follow the command that came out of his mouth, the moment he came up out of the water at his baptism by John - repent.

That is the command and if one does it right, the way God teaches in the OT, then the odor will appear. This odor is what is known as the oil of gladness or oil of joy. The reason it appears is to prepares one for the next mystery., which equally across the board is the eucharist.

Jesus overcame and it says he sat down on his Father's throne and those of us who overcome will do likewise. The little details don't get to me. I prefer the big stuff.
edit on 19-8-2011 by Myrtales Instinct because: (no reason given)





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