Non Christian proof that Jesus (Yeshua) Existed

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by windword

 

It's easy to insert fiction inot historical texts after the fact.

According to your logic, then i presume Socrates, was a figment of his students imagination, since there is not a single document that contains his original works. Think about it for a second.

Peace

Yep. Who really wrote the Odssey and the Iliad? Who really wrote Shakespeare and who killed JFK? We don't really know, and neither do you "know" about the Biblical Jesus.

Originally posted by ManOfGod267
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Do you go to church now? I never go to ask you. Also do you and SE believe Jesus is God or in the Trinity?

I believe in the Trinity, and Jesus is a part of that trinity. God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. God did save us, he sent his son to die on a cross for our sins. God is our savior for he sent his only begotten son Jesus (Yeshua) to be our redeemer.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I understand the Christian perspective. Thanks for answering my question buddy!

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by windword

 

It's easy to insert fiction inot historical texts after the fact.

According to your logic, then i presume Socrates, was a figment of his students imagination, since there is not a single document that contains his original works. Think about it for a second.

Peace

Yep. Who really wrote the Odssey and the Iliad? Who really wrote Shakespeare and who killed JFK? We don't really know, and neither do you "know" about the Biblical Jesus.

edit on 19-8-2011 by windword because: punctuation

It takes a bold man to stand and accuse dead men who have been gone for thousands of years and whom cannot stand and defend themselves against your accusations.

I like your location, are you from sirius b? What are they again? Reptilians? Plaeidians? Zeta Reticulans? What faith is that? Sounds like Star Trek. What is that religion Star Trekology?

You must not believe Plato or Homer were real men either, but then again i wouldnt expect someone from the Intergalactic Federation to know much about humanity in the first place.

reply to post by windword

Uh huh, they worte about what they heard from other people. Rumour!

ESPECIALLY in our modern day where one can hardly believe video or photographs anymore due to Photoshop, CGI, etc. this just strikes me as the epitome of satire...how much of what you currently take for granted did you witness, test, prove, or do for yourself? Can you not take this to its logical conclusion and realize how silly this statement is? I'm assuming you read or listen to the news...pray tell, how exactly did you substantiate that which you chose to believe?

Enough said.

Fantastical stories! Thats how myths gets started. Bored soldiers and fishermen telling fantastic tales. Your arguement gives me leave to take all Bible stories with a grain of salt.

Arguments like this have always made me QUITE curious. Apparently, since it's so easy for obvious falsehoods to become accepted as mainstream reality by this reasoning, can you give me...oh, say 5 comparable examples of it occurring in the last - we'll make it easy - 500 years? It should be a fairly easy comparison, the gospel went from being a backwater event to the ruling paradigm of most of the world in just a few hundred years, so I'm sure that will give you a large enough timeframe to come up with some obvious parallels.

Take care.

Originally posted by Akragon
I don't see why the truth of his existance matters either way...

The "existance" of what is written about him regardless of if he "existed" or not, still changed the world for better or worse.

What does matter is what each person understands about what he supposedly taught. Even if he didn't exist what is written about said historical/fictional character still rings true, even to this day.

I agree in part, but for a christian to believe that Jesus is Lord, the following possibilities need to be knocked on the head:

Jesus was a lunatic
Jesus was a liar
Jesus was just a legend

The OP is clarifying that Jesus was not just a legend but a real historical figure. This leaves only three other possibilities: He is Lord, liar or lunatic.

I believe it was C.S.Lewis that first proposed these four possibilites of Jesus.

reply to post by XplanetX
First off, Lewis was awesome, and you are correct, he came up with the trilemma.

Secondly, while I understand and appreciate friend Akragon's sentiment, Paul addressed this directly himself:

12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

This is, of course, subjective depending on one's view of reality and the goals of this life, but if there is no eternal life, and no resurrection of the dead, and the message of Christ is false - then those who eschew seeking material success and hedonism are of course the most pitiable.

Be well.

reply to post by XplanetX


I have a question. Why do you or Christians believe is G-d. Now the Sun is setting and it is Shabbat. I will be looking for a good reply. I already asked the OP what he thought about Jesus being God. More detail would be great. Messaging me would be better too. Since this is about Jesus being historic not about whether Jesus is divine or not.

reply to post by Praetorius


The title of this thread is "Non Christain proof that Jesus (Yeshua) Existed". I'm not going to play games with you and answer 20 questions as to why the OP have failed to convince me. My post explains why I feel the Op source hasn't provided me "proof" of the existance of a "god" who was born of a virgin, performed miracles, was killed for my sin, then reserrected, etc.

since it's so easy for obvious falsehoods to become accepted as mainstream reality by this reasoning, can you give me...oh, say 5 comparable examples of it occurring............

If you don't think falsehoods become accepted in mainstream reality, just off the top of my head:

The Official 911 Story

The Infallability of The Pope

The War on Drugs

Homosexuality Is a Choice

America was Founded on Judeo Christian Values

reply to post by windword
The problem with all of your examples is that each have direct and equal opposition presented openly as can be verified by history.

What you don't have is a record of any early-century opposition to the allegation that Jesus was a real, historical person, and that's what this thread is about.

reply to post by Praetorius


I have no desire to disprove your belief system. It's just that you and others have failed to convince me that its true.

There is plenty of resistance to Christianity around the globe Right here on ATS, you get a good idea of the "other side."

reply to post by windword
You seem to be missing my point, and I'd be surprised if you'd miss it equally while discussing other events.

No one, in the first hundred years or later after this bit of history - when christianity was a religion starting to take over the world based on the claim that this man led them - is documented anywhere that I'm aware of questioning this. It wasn't until the 18th century that questions about the historical reality of Jesus of Judea came up. You don't think someone back then would have expressed any of these same doubts if there were even a chance that the whole thing was based on a lie like that? Only after 18 centuries do we start to question if something actually happened?

If you can't reason you way through to the same conclusion, I'd sure be interested to find out what kind of information would convince you, since the only historical records we have won't.

And I guess that's a duplicate post!

reply to post by Praetorius


Perhaps I don't understand your question. Are you asking why, now, are people are starting to disbelieve, and never did before?

Well, first of all Christians would kill anybody that disagreed with them. Heretics were burnt at the stake or tortured during the inquistion, the Celts were forced into accepting Christianity through brutal war and subserviance to their lords and Kings and Queens and Popes.

The Crusades invaded territories in Persia and the Holy land, killing anybody that would even question their motives or try to defend their land. Jews were thrown out of Russia, Poland and Eastern Europe, and were blamed for every storm, drought or illness befalling a community because they didn't accept Christ.

In America we had witch burnings. Even in the 20th century, the Church still excommunicated people and the medical community interned people who didn't believe what they were supposed to. Free speech and free thinking is relativiely new, and fading fast.

Originally posted by rogerstigers

Not a secular source (www.gotquestions.org...)

Also not a secular source (www.sowhataboutjesus.com...)

Originally posted by windword
I don't see how you can state that these are non-christian sites. They clearly are. There isn't really any PROOF, that the same Jesus, that charactor from the Bible, which has been written and rewritten, is the same individual that people have rumoured to have met or heard about.

Are you serious? Did you not see OP say "non-Christian SOURCES"?

If either of you actually read the site, which obviously is a Christian site (because there are Atheists sites that talk about proof that Jesus existed, right? right?), you will see that the SOURCES mentioned were from Ancient Rome, etc, LIKE THE OP MENTIONED.

Jeez, did you think you were going to open a website made by Ancient Romans? No, you can't be that retarded.. can you?

I'm an atheist, however I've never doubted that your jesus existed, and he may have even been a super nice guy. What I have always doubted was his supposed magic tricks, and the rest of the fairy tail that is the bible. So no need for your so called proof.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by rogerstigers

Are you serious? Did you not see OP say "non-Christian SOURCES"?

If either of you actually read the site, which obviously is a Christian site (because there are Atheists sites that talk about proof that Jesus existed, right? right?), you will see that the SOURCES mentioned were from Ancient Rome, etc, LIKE THE OP MENTIONED.

Jeez, did you think you were going to open a website made by Ancient Romans? No, you can't be that retarded.. can you?

I don't know about atheist sites proving that Jesus existed. I'm not an atheist and find no need to do such research. It is my belief that the deification of Jesus is mythical and politically motivated. There may have been a carpenter that preached of the ways of the Essene, but I don't believe the "official story" of the immaculate conception, the crucifiction for our sins or the resserrection. The OP source proves nothing to me.

Last time I checked, I wasn't retarded. But I was hoping for some better documentation on the life of this "Son of God" other than that of a few men who heard dubious stories that align with the myths of Apollo, Mithra, Osirus etc.

Dear friend,

Just thought you might find the following links helpful:

www.everystudent.com...
www.truthorfiction.com...

I hope you find the answers you are looking for, because He loves you so He signed your very being!

reply to post by FriendlyGopher

Works of:

Josephus

The Talmud

Tacitus

Suetonius

Thallus

Pliny the Younger. read the works of these... & see if you need to apoligize...

reply to post by windword


But God does. Either God is a liar, & the Bible is not from him, or the Bible IS from him & what God tells us about Jesus is the truth.... so the question should be 'Is God a liar'? Any takers? Most people don't even believe the 1st line of the bible. 'In the beginning, was the word, & the word was with God.' It is a statement. To argue it is to call God a liar from the start... Is God a mere human that he would lie? & to whom would he lie? He created everything, he has nothing to be afraid of. Humans lie out of fear... God has no such dilemma.