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Challenging creationism

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posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


Thank you for the compliment. I need to clarify my position. I am not raising my child to be a "creationist". I am raising him to be an independent thinker. I don't want religion forced down his throat. I don't want anyone in a position of power to tell him how to think.

I come from a household of liberal, freethinkers. I was given a bible at age 8, but I was never forced to read it, I didn't even go to church until I was 21, which was my own choice.

Searching for God, is a personal journey. Yesterday you could be an atheist, and tomorrow, you may have a life changing event that could shift your paradigm completely. This is exactly what happened to me. "Soft atheist" for close to 20 years, and then one event and poof, I'm questioning the entire origin of myself.

How or why should I force my beliefs onto you? Are you not all capable thinkers? Isn't everyone able to think for themselves these days?

These weren't questions for you, just rhetorical, I suppose.




posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by The Endtime Warrior
 


I just want to clarify that what I was saying wasn't directed towards you. It was directed towards those Creationists that can't accept the fact that science has answers to questions that religion either doesn't answer or answers in the vaguest way possible. I'm all for raising my children to be free-thinkers. If they want to be a Young Earth Creationist, that's their choice. However, I'm not going to coddle them if they fail a test on evolution due to their beliefs.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


After posting that I realized you weren't really directing that at me. Sorry for that. I agree with your sentiments.
A freethinking person is dangerous to society. I can almost assure you that I am nothing like an atypical christian that you have run across. You could almost say I'm a radical.....



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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OK – Let’s say that the big bang is true.

That in the beginning was a dense piece of matter, so dense that it contained all of the matter in the known universe.

Suddenly, for no apparent reason, this piece of matter exploded outward in all directions – thus forming the universe.

I know there’s more, but that’s it in a nut shell.



I, as a Christian, would prefer to believe in a God that exists – which I have seen proof for – who has always existed.

You, as an atheist, would rather believe in a dense space rock that has always existed, which suddenly and spontaneously decided to explode into the universe.

Oh yeah, also, the space rock must have just appeared from nothingness – after all that doesn’t fly in the face of the first law of Thermodynamics, which states that matter can’t be created or destroyed.


So, to wrap it up, I would rather believe in a God, who loves me and cares for me – as opposed to believing in a rock…. A ROCK… A FREGGIN’ ROCK!!!!!


Your own laws contradict your precious theory.

I will wait to respond to any further questions when you can tell me where the “Magic-Universe-Exploding-Space Rock” came from….



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by MentorsRiddle
 


Well, we actually have evidence for the "big bang"; cosmic background radiation, the movement of the galaxies from a central point, etc. Also, matter is constantly "poofing" in and out of existence all the time.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 08:46 PM
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Ok - we have people that experience supernatural events all the time - with no scientific explanation....

By your own reasoning that means that spirituality is true also....

So you mean to tell me that everyting in the universe is just chance?

Trees produce oxygen for us to breath, we produce gasses that they breath. We dream, hope, love, experience joy, Eat, sleep, think, feel, live - our existence is a miricle. And it all came from a rock that had no living life on it?

I don't think so.

But again I ask - where did the Magic-Exploding-Universe-Space Rock come from?



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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It can be difficult to teach some one about the natural world who has been indoctrinated in religions dogma, but not impossible.
Pear pressure, ignorance and fear of being ostracized from the group are enough to keep most of their heads in the sand, but there is hope.
Some come here and are enlightened and begin to awaken from the fantasy world they are spoon fed by ignorant religious fanatics.
Don't ask me how I know.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by MentorsRiddle
 





Ok - we have people that experience supernatural events all the time - with no scientific explanation....

Ok- show me just one example, one that cannot explained.
You can't.
How do I know?
I have done the research it's all a lie.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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Here is part II for those coming out of the slumber.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by Atzil321
 


I'll be your huckleberry.



4. How did koalas get to Australia after the ark washed up on that mountain?


How did the modern horse get to North America?




5. Why did your god make life that has to destroy other life, often cruelly, in order to survive?


If evolution is true and it's mechanisms are natural. Why do you feel it is wrong or bad that life forms survive this way?




7. Is it just to punish all humans, including those who weren't born yet, for the sins of one? Would you punish your own younger children for the wrongs of the oldest which occurred before the others were born?


Wrong analogy. If a parent has the AIDS virus, later gets pregnant and passes AIDS on to their child, who's fault is it?




8. If humans are special creations, why do we share the traits of violence, lust, rage, tribal warfare, homosexuality, etc. with animals?


Inherited imperfection




9. Why do you believe your god made only one breeding pair (Adam and Eve), instead of many? With only one breeding pair, fathers are forced to have sex with daughters, brothers with sisters, and sons with mothers, in order to propagate the species. Is this a divine endorsement for incest?


The Bible is clearly against incest. Maybe early on, after a couple of hundred years, their sister started to look pretty good.

Again if evolution is true, the same thing happened. It was natural. Why are you making a moral judgment against nature?



10. If all civilisations resulted from Adam and Eve, and oral traditions about the god that created them were passed down from generation to generation, why are there so many other creation stories in the world? Why didn't all civilisations keep their 'true' religion?


Ever play the telephone game?




11. Why did your god only appear to one group of people? If it can do anything and be everywhere at once, why couldn't it appear to the other people of the world as well?


You don't understand the Bible.

Hint: Sacred Secret




12. Why do you get your scientific education from people like Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron? These people have no university-level education in science, and in some cases, no university education at all. Wouldn't it be smarter to trust those who are educated, and actively researching, in the field?


I don't get my scientific info from any of those individuals.

Trust the educated, like maybe we should put faith in them?




13. Why has the world, including government funding, science journals, reputable newspapers, education standards, etc., moved on without you, leaving your barbaric bronze-age theories in their dust? Why have we made so much progress in our understanding after abandoning religious methodology for a scientific one?


You mean the corrupt governments, newspapers, educational and financial systems that have made all the headlines lately? How many of those guys went to college?

Hows that workin' for ya?

Hmm.. where did I put that riot gear......

If you need me I will be trying to "love my neighbor as myself"




14. Why is there at least some evidence for our scientific theories, but none at all for your creationism?


You mean like the scientific fact that life comes from pre existing life?

That inventions come from inventors?





19. To avoid the cruelty caused by life killing other life to survive, couldn't we all have been photosynthetic organisms, using sunlight and inanimate molecules to make our energy? If you're going to say there's not enough energy in photosynthesis, why couldn't your god design a more effective photosynthetic system?


Why do you keep making these moral judgements?




21. Why do the mathematical models behind scientific understanding of the Universe work so well, while creationists have no mathematical models at all?


You mean like dark energy and dark matter?

Quantum Mechanics vs Relativity?

Since God invented the concept of mathematics.

Score 1 for our side!




22. Does your creation model or your holy book account for things like quantum mechanics? Why doesn't it seem to contain much useful knowledge at all?


Like the other day when someone was a real jerk to me, I totally relied on my knowledge of quantum mechanics and turned the other cheek.

Or the time my friend was dying of cancer, she really was comforted by the book I read to her about string theory.

Yeah or like the kid I know, who doesn't have a dad that cares about him. I took that kid to a baseball game, boy did my knowledge of evolution really motivate me to show him some kindness.




27. Why can we see objects in space that are billions of light years away?


1 Because God designed and then created stars and galaxies, as well as our eyes and our brains.

2 Because the universe is billions of years old




28. What process did your god use to create life? Can you describe how it works?


I have a friend with an awesome BBQ recipe. He won't tell me whats in it. So I just thank him for having me over and enjoy his cooking.

BTW what process did the universe use to create itself? Can you describe how it works?




29. Can you use your creation model to make any helpful predictions that might lead us to further discoveries or understanding?


Yes, it's called inventions and inventors.

They are welcome to reverse engineer anything already created. Maybe they can CREATE things like airplanes and jet propulsion by studying nature.


edit on 20-8-2011 by dusty1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by flyingfish
reply to post by MentorsRiddle
 





Ok - we have people that experience supernatural events all the time - with no scientific explanation....

Ok- show me just one example, one that cannot explained.
You can't.
How do I know?
I have done the research it's all a lie.



No - you just choose not to accept it, because it doesn't fit with your reality.

There have been many examples.

One of the best known ones is a woman who had brain cancer, she was dead for over and hour On a doctors operating table She floated out of her body, knew what the doctors were saying. She had ear plugs in and bandges on her eyes. Her brain was hooked up to a monitor, and her heart was too. There was no activity while they operated.

She told the doctors what she heard them say when floating out of her body, which they confirmed. Even the friggin doctors said it was impossible.

That's just one example.

Now tell me - where did the magic universe exploding space rock come from?



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by MentorsRiddle
 


So how did it all start?"A magic universe exploding space rock" If your ignorant this could be your answer.Your understanding of cosmology is preschool at best. Most people agree that the universe started very small and very dense and underwent an initial inflation that lasted a infinitismle fraction of a second.
As for what happened before this event?A very good question, and one that is highly debated and still unsolved.
Science is good at telling us how, but not so good on the why. Maybe there isn't a why. To wonder why is very human, but perhaps there is no answer in human terms to such deep questions of before the big bang. Or perhaps there is, but we are looking at the problem in the wrong way. I suppose just like many other myterys man has solved it's much easyer for simple minds to say "god did it" than it is to do the research and discover the truth. I suspect many of the "god did it" people are simply riding their god's coat tail with this supposed knowledge in order to seem all knowing.
It fails all logic.




One of the best known ones is a woman who had brain cancer, she was dead for over and hour On a doctors operating table She floated out of her body, knew what the doctors were saying. She had ear plugs in and bandges on her eyes. Her brain was hooked up to a monitor, and her heart was too. There was no activity while they operated.


This is no proof of any miracle or the supernatural, the simple fact of the matter is, if she really had died she would still be dead.
End of story.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by dusty1
 


The questions are designed to be answered from a creationist view of the world, your
picking and choosing how to answer them from lots of different perspectives, also you
don't even seem to understand most of them.... I give you 1/10 for effort



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by Atzil321
reply to post by dusty1
 


The questions are designed to be answered from a creationist view of the world, your
picking and choosing how to answer them from lots of different perspectives, also you
don't even seem to understand most of them.... I give you 1/10 for effort



That's all you got?

I am a Creationist.

I understand the questions and what they are designed to do.

Who are you, Rex Kwon Do? "Grab my arm, no the other arm, no my other arm"



You didn't get the answers you wanted, and you either don't understand them or you are intimidated.

I don't even think you formulated the questions yourself.

You obviously were not prepared for a real debate.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by dusty1

Your not intimidating, you answered his questions with questions.This is a cop out not a debate.
You fail at this debate

edit on 20-8-2011 by flyingfish because: (no reason given)

This does not surprise me, after all trying to debate with a creationist about reality is like trying to explain physics to a child.
The Easter bunny wins.
edit on 20-8-2011 by flyingfish because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by flyingfish
reply to post by MentorsRiddle
 


So how did it all start?"A magic universe exploding space rock" If your ignorant this could be your answer.Your understanding of cosmology is preschool at best. Most people agree that the universe started very small and very dense and underwent an initial inflation that lasted a infinitismle fraction of a second.
As for what happened before this event?A very good question, and one that is highly debated and still unsolved.
Science is good at telling us how, but not so good on the why. Maybe there isn't a why. To wonder why is very human, but perhaps there is no answer in human terms to such deep questions of before the big bang. Or perhaps there is, but we are looking at the problem in the wrong way. I suppose just like many other myterys man has solved it's much easyer for simple minds to say "god did it" than it is to do the research and discover the truth. I suspect many of the "god did it" people are simply riding their god's coat tail with this supposed knowledge in order to seem all knowing.
It fails all logic.




One of the best known ones is a woman who had brain cancer, she was dead for over and hour On a doctors operating table She floated out of her body, knew what the doctors were saying. She had ear plugs in and bandges on her eyes. Her brain was hooked up to a monitor, and her heart was too. There was no activity while they operated.


This is no proof of any miracle or the supernatural, the simple fact of the matter is, if she really had died she would still be dead.
End of story.



It's funny.... You call me an ignorant pre-schooled mind, but yet you speak of the Big Bang the same way Christians and other speak of God....

You basically said we don't know why, etc.... But the truth is that it makes no since.

Matter did not just suddenly come into being from no where.

You are still dancing around my question - where did it come from?

I don't know won't cut it, because you won't let our examples cut it.

You said the woman died, so she would still be dead - that is very silly. There are thousands of examples of people dying and being brought back. It happens all the time.

Neurosurgons dropped her body temperature, stopped her heart, etc. because the tumor was located at the base of the brain stem. At low temperatures the body can be brought back from death - even after being dead for over and hour. This is fact....

It was the case with her - you choose to dismiss my example, which is documented under supervision of medical doctors, because you can't explain it. That is not good science. That is being thick.

Like I said before, it just doesn't fit in with your realm of thinking.

Here's the truth of the matter.

Christians, Islamists, Jews, etc... none of us have it all figured out - and neither do people like you.

No one knows the ultimate truth of the universe - but it makes me sick when I hear people belittling Christians, or any other spiritual person.

I have never gone out of my way to start a thread saying why Athiests are stupid for not beleiving in God - those threads are usually always started by Athiests. Sometimes I think threads like this just allow people like you to flex their mental strength.

The irony is that you know nothing. Our science is always changing - what is taken as fact today will be taken as fiction tomorow.

You, nor anyone else, can answer where the first peice of matter came from - just as I can't say where God came from.

Your faith is that of your own mind, where as mine is that of a higher order.

I don't care if you beleive me or not - I have seen things. I have seen people posessed - I was not the only one. There was physical manifestations - sharp teeth, black eyes, etc. I know you will say I'm a liar or I am making it up.... that's fine.

If you can beleive it or not, I am truly concerned for you and your eternal spirit - even if you don't beleive it exists.

Athiests hate us Bible Thumpers - and the sad part is that most of us only care about you, when all we receive is redicule and resentment.

But, when the end comes, and it will, I hope for your sake that God has mercy on you for your hate of him and his ways.



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
Ok - we have people that experience supernatural events all the time - with no scientific explanation....

By your own reasoning that means that spirituality is true also....

So you mean to tell me that everyting in the universe is just chance?

Trees produce oxygen for us to breath, we produce gasses that they breath. We dream, hope, love, experience joy, Eat, sleep, think, feel, live - our existence is a miricle. And it all came from a rock that had no living life on it?

I don't think so.

But again I ask - where did the Magic-Exploding-Universe-Space Rock come from?



fair enough. Do you think the answer is in Islam?



posted on Aug, 20 2011 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by flyingfish
 





Your not intimidating, you answered his questions with questions.This is a cop out not a debate. You fail at this debate


I see you're a "thinking inside the box" kinda guy. Let me connect the dots for you.


How did koalas get to Australia?


I answered with. How did the modern horse get to North America?

The answer to my question is the Spanish brought the modern horse to North America by ship.

The current population of horses in North America is said to be over 10 million. NAERIC

The current population of koalas in Australia is said to be between 40 to 80 thousand. Australia Koala Foundation




This does not surprise me, after all trying to debate with a creationist about reality is like trying to explain physics to a child.


In your arrogance you believe that a child cannot understand physics?

The truth is that a child who plays with a bow and arrow or a ball has an understanding of physics.




The Easter bunny wins







I am laughing at you, not with you.



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by sgreco

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
Ok - we have people that experience supernatural events all the time - with no scientific explanation....

By your own reasoning that means that spirituality is true also....

So you mean to tell me that everyting in the universe is just chance?

Trees produce oxygen for us to breath, we produce gasses that they breath. We dream, hope, love, experience joy, Eat, sleep, think, feel, live - our existence is a miricle. And it all came from a rock that had no living life on it?

I don't think so.

But again I ask - where did the Magic-Exploding-Universe-Space Rock come from?



fair enough. Do you think the answer is in Islam?


I do not think the answer is in Islam - as I am Christian.

However, if others feel that the answer is in Islam then let them practice Islam.

I am not here to save people - I am here as a seed planter. It is up to each individual to determine what is best for them, even if I do not beleive in their path.

Do I think Islamists have it right? My answer is no, I do not - but I also realize that is because I am bias on my religion.

My main debate is not on who is right or wrong - Christians, Islamists, Hindu, etc. My debate is that of Spirituality.... Does it exist or not?

From my experience, and things I have read, seen and experienced - Spirituality is real.

All one has to do is open their mind and look around at the world - and try to perceive things from a realm that isn't based on numbers and tickers.

My only motivation to even post in this type of thread is not to prove to myself that God is real - for I know that. My motivation is to provide even the tinest peice of a spark that ignites some sort of feavor in a person to seek out God.

If you find that in Islam - fine. If you find that in Christianity, in my opinion, even better.

It would be so much easier for me to say, "There is no God. There is no Hell, There is no afterlife."

But I can't do that. It would be easier for me because I could do what I want without feeling any regreat, or any remorse. I could do what I wanted. I could sleep with who ever I wanted, say what ever I wanted, do what ever I wanted - and there would be no further punishment for me after death.

But I know this is not the case.

Like I said earlier - my main concern is for those who refuse to acknowledge that there is something beyond our sinces, and their eternal spirit.

I want my God to say, "You did a good job - you tried. For that I find no fault."

I don't want my God to say, "You had the chance to acknowledge me before someone else, and you didn't. So for that I will not acknowledge you...."

So, I'm not trying to prove God to me - I'm trying to prove him to others. Because again, I love you all, and I want you to be with me forever.... Even if others don't beleive in forever.



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by dusty1
 





I see you're a "thinking inside the box" kinda guy. Let me connect the dots for you. How did koalas get to Australia? I answered with. How did the modern horse get to North America? The answer to my question is the Spanish brought the modern horse to North America by ship. The current population of horses in North America is said to be over 10 million. NAERIC The current population of koalas in Australia is said to be between 40 to 80 thousand. Australia Koala Foundation


Again your ignorance shines through.
The OP's question has nothing to do with how modern horses get to North America. Your trying to deflect from answering the question.
This is par for course when it comes to debating anything that deals with "proof".
Then again you don't need proof when you have faith.



In your arrogance you believe that a child cannot understand physics? The truth is that a child who plays with a bow and arrow or a ball has an understanding of physics.

I was using this as a parable, I was really pointing out your narrow, rigid view and for you to look outside this tunnel vision would be difficult at best.
I'm guessing your not that stupid and your just trying to be a clown, but I could be wrong.




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