Challenging creationism

Recently it feels like creationsts and young earth believers have taken over ATS, they routinely
pop up in all sorts of threads laying down their beliefs. Everything from dinosaurs co-existing
with humans to saying that the universe is 6000 years old, the big bang is a lie and that
evolution is a myth... They say all these things with no shred of convincing evidence at all
and yet they are never challenged in their ideas. Are there no rational thinking people left
here to counteract this tide of ignorance? Well I have decided to challenge it and pose
them some difficult questions concerning their ideas.

1. What makes your story of creationism fundamentally different from all the others that exist now, have existed before, and will exist in the future?

2. How did Noah find all of the animals and get them back to the ark? Did he bring them back one pair at a time, or did they all follow him in a line as he visited other continents to collect more animals?

3. What did the carnivores eat on the ark?

4. How did koalas get to Australia after the ark washed up on that mountain?

5. Why did your god make life that has to destroy other life, often cruelly, in order to survive?

6. If cruelty and suffering result from a 'fallen world' caused by some original sin of humans, why did your god also punish the animals for it by creating disease, pain and suffering for them too?

7. Is it just to punish all humans, including those who weren't born yet, for the sins of one? Would you punish your own younger children for the wrongs of the oldest which occurred before the others were born?

8. If humans are special creations, why do we share the traits of violence, lust, rage, tribal warfare, homosexuality, etc. with animals?

9. Why do you believe your god made only one breeding pair (Adam and Eve), instead of many? With only one breeding pair, fathers are forced to have sex with daughters, brothers with sisters, and sons with mothers, in order to propagate the species. Is this a divine endorsement for incest?

10. If all civilisations resulted from Adam and Eve, and oral traditions about the god that created them were passed down from generation to generation, why are there so many other creation stories in the world? Why didn't all civilisations keep their 'true' religion?

11. Why did your god only appear to one group of people? If it can do anything and be everywhere at once, why couldn't it appear to the other people of the world as well?

12. Why do you get your scientific education from people like Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron? These people have no university-level education in science, and in some cases, no university education at all. Wouldn't it be smarter to trust those who are educated, and actively researching, in the field?

13. Why has the world, including government funding, science journals, reputable newspapers, education standards, etc., moved on without you, leaving your barbaric bronze-age theories in their dust? Why have we made so much progress in our understanding after abandoning religious methodology for a scientific one?


Intermediate questions:

14. Why is there at least some evidence for our scientific theories, but none at all for your creationism?

15. Why is the fossil record arranged in such a way as to suggest evolution?

16. Why are the continents shaped like they were once together, and have similar geology on what would be the common edges?

17. Why are the continents moving apart at a rate that would put them together millions of years ago?

18. If humans are special creations, why do we share the same biology, metabolic pathways, etc. with chimpanzees? Shouldn't we have been made completely differently to emphasize the point?

19. To avoid the cruelty caused by life killing other life to survive, couldn't we all have been photosynthetic organisms, using sunlight and inanimate molecules to make our energy? If you're going to say there's not enough energy in photosynthesis, why couldn't your god design a more effective photosynthetic system?

20. Why does the evidence from so many scientific disciplines, astronomy, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, all converge to suggest the Big Bang and Evolution, while at the same time pointing away from your theory?

21. Why do the mathematical models behind scientific understanding of the Universe work so well, while creationists have no mathematical models at all?

22. Does your creation model or your holy book account for things like quantum mechanics? Why doesn't it seem to contain much useful knowledge at all?

23. If your god didn't explain quantum nature for these people because they wouldn't understand, then isn't it time your god shows itself and gives us an update now that we have more understanding? Why doesn't it divinely guide some people to write an update to your current holy book? Or is it allowing us to do that through science? Is the reason we don't need an update that science is doing such a good job of answering the questions?


Advanced Questions:

24. Why does the human chromosome #2 appear to have been created by the fusion of two different chimpanzee chromosomes, complete with structures which would not be necessary if it was created as a single, unified chromosome?

25. What is the Cosmic Background Radiation? The CBR is an integral part of the Big Bang model, and is in fact demanded by it. How does your creationism account for it, ie. where does it fit in your model?

26. Why are the galaxies moving apart? Were they once much closer together?

27. Why can we see objects in space that are billions of light years away?

28. What process did your god use to create life? Can you describe how it works?

29. Can you use your creation model to make any helpful predictions that might lead us to further discoveries or understanding?

30. What is one prediction that your model can make which could support your creationism to the exclusion of accepted scientific models, and what evidence can you find for it?

Religion in general, and creationsim is particular, seem to be exempt from the burden of proof in the minds of their respective adherents.

It's not up to them to prove their point. It's up to YOU to disprove their point.

This goes against logic, of course, but that's really not so surprising. There is no proof for god or creationism. Not a shred.

I just read the posts about a 6,000 year old Earth and a total disregard for science, chuckle and move on.

reply to post by jtap66
It would be easy to chuckle and move on if it were not such dangerous nonsense.
Do you know presidential candidates now run with creationist ideas? Rick perry even
has it being taught in Texas schools... Its like the world is going backwords instead of forward.

reply to post by Atzil321


I have to chuckle, or else I'd lose my mind.

This country is rapidly moving backwards as it relates to the value of education. When you value bronze age fairy tales without a shred of evidence for them over the quest for real knowledge, it becomes a race to the bottom. Soon other countries will be leaps and bounds ahead of us technologically, while we sit around praying for rain and protesting soldiers funerals.

You have posed a lot of questions – I have read over them all.

First let me begin by saying that I am a Christian. I was raised during my early years as Church of Christ, later on I became Southern Baptist, then went on to dabble in Pentecostal, etc.

Here is what I have learned from all of my studies, research, etc.

It is possible that some of the stories from the Old Testament, such as the great deluge and Noah, etc., were embellished. There are multiple different versions of the same story, not only in the ancient manuscripts, but similar stories from different cultures and religions. Perhaps some of these stories were borrowed from the different cultures the Hebrews interacted with over hundreds to thousands of years.

I will not argue that the big bang may have been possible, as there is plenty of evidence to point to this fact. However there has never been definitive proof to the big bang – and for the time being, it remains a theory. And I admit a good one.

As far as evolution goes…. Again it is a good theory. However I am still not sold on the idea, for reasons I don’t wish to go into here – as they could start a whole other thread of its own.

I know you are looking for evidence of Creationism, but fundamentally I believe you are looking for evidence of Spirituality; or the existence of God.

I am not dumb enough to try and argue Faith with Science – the two are like oil and water and will not mix with our current model of thinking.

However, there has been evidence to support the existence of spirituality.

I myself, I realize you will have to take it at my word, have experienced things beyond scientific explanation.

I have seen demonic activity, ghosts, angelic activity, etc.

They were not hallucinations – as I was not the only one who saw the exact same thing at the same time.

Faith is just that – faith.

I realize to the scientific mind, and someone who is agnostic or atheist, faith is the delusions of a childlike mind. I often get the since that people of this nature hate, and look down on spiritual minded people. And I find this sad.

There is some evidence that I could give to counter some of your arguments here – but not all of your points. Any true spiritual person must admit these things. If they do not they are deluding their selves.

But like I said earlier – I have seen proof of spiritual things. I consider them gifts.

If you want to believe in your scientific mode of thinking – that’s fine.

But if God is real – and I believe he is – and if he did create the universe – and I believe he did – then the big bang, evolution, etc., are all things that existed in the mind of God – therefor it would also be considered creationism.

You brought up some good points – and like I said, I will not argue with them. Because they are all good.

My deepest desire is this: I can admit that you may be right, so please consider there may be more to the universe than we understand at the moment. There very well could be a creator. Perhaps he is a higher dimensional being… One that we call God.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle
Thanks for taking time to read through the questions. Im not actually anti religion or
die-hard athiest. I have friends who are christian, muslim and buddhist, even a pagan!
I respect their right to believe in whatever they like, and am open to spirituality.
It's the hardcore groups who have managed to integrate themselves into mainstream
politics and education that bother me, these people believe in a literal interpretation of the
bible, and wish to teach these ideas to kids in all mainstream schools across the united states.
They are succeeding to a certain extent, and in Rick perry they have a presidential candidate
who will actually implement their crazy ideas... so you may end up having the most
technologically advanced nation on earth teaching creation myths right across the country in
a few years time, its a very scary prospect. Politics and religion should be seperate as should
education and religion.

Creationism isn't a valid scientific theory in even the loosest definition. So refuting it is incredibly easy, since Creationists themselves cannot provide scientific evidence.

I was a very skeptical and scientific-minded person, but after witnessing things firsthand, I believe the ignorant ones are not the faithful ones. You can only disbelieve in God so long as you are ignorant of Him.

Basically the argument is this: because I have never had an experience to tell me there is a God, there is no God. It by itself is an argument from ignorance. You may have all the knowledge in the world, but if you do not know God, it's in vain. Once you know there is a God you know that many men held in high-esteem and are regarded as having sharp acumen have been utterly wrong. If they are wrong, why can't our scientific views also be wrong?

I still struggle with having faith (trust). There are so many people telling conflicting things about God, I am deathly terrified I will be decieved and forfeit my soul to hell.

reply to post by Atzil321

I agree, Atzil321, and I fully support your post, and challenge all Creationists to answer the questions honestly. Of course they cannot, for no Creationist can really back up their belief, if comes from a book only, and disregards real, tangible evidence. I have been told that Dinosaur bones were placed there by the Devil to fool Christians! I was told that HERE. You should see this place, and speak with the people who work there.

Originally posted by Atzil321
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

Thanks for taking time to read through the questions. Im not actually anti religion or
die-hard athiest. I have friends who are christian, muslim and buddhist, even a pagan!
I respect their right to believe in whatever they like, and am open to spirituality.
It's the hardcore groups who have managed to integrate themselves into mainstream
politics and education that bother me, these people believe in a literal interpretation of the
bible, and wish to teach these ideas to kids in all mainstream schools across the united states.
They are succeeding to a certain extent, and in Rick perry they have a presidential candidate
who will actually implement their crazy ideas... so you may end up having the most
technologically advanced nation on earth teaching creation myths right across the country in
a few years time, its a very scary prospect. Politics and religion should be seperate as should
education and religion.

I understand that you do not wish these principles to be taught to children.

But we have to be tolerant to other's ideas and beleifs - even if they may be unfounded.

I personally beleive that creationisim and the idea of natural creation should be taught side by side - let the student determine what they wish to beleive in.

We can not clump all knowledge and ways of thinking into right or wrong - people must be free to choose what to beleive.

I'll bite. I don't even know exactly where to start with you. Your biggest flaws are the assumptions that you make and your ignorance of the things of God. You assume the universe exists now exactly as it always has. You assume by your questions that evolution is real and then you shape your view of everything else you observe through that prism. I am a young earth creationist and I believe in the biblical account described in Genesis. I believe that through the omnipotent power of the will of God the universe came into being. That's the prism I view the world through. Then the "evidence" for evolution, to me, starts looking exactly what the Bible looks like to you...foolishness. I know you have mountains of evidence, but your questions rarely even brush up against it. Mostly you appear to have a chip on your shoulder that leads you to believe you know more than God.

1: It's the one that's been preserved by the God of this universe and recorded in the Torah while most civilizations were worshiping "gods" they'd made with their own hands.
2: God brought the animals to where Noah was building the ark.
3: How do you know they did eat on the ark? This is a supernatural event in history. Why do you presume the supernatural stopped at the rain?
4: The same way God brought them there in the first place. (see the account of God "tele-porting" Phillip after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch.)
5: You know the answer based off question 6
6: The world belonged to Adam. When he fell he took the whole world with it. When Christ returns the animals will no longer eat each other.
7: Sin entered all through one. Knowing this was going to happen before He even created Adam; God already planned provision, through Jesus, for sin to be taken out of all men through one. Who are you to judge God's way?
8: These are the fruits of sin in our bodies. Accept Christ he will cleanse you of you sins.
9: That's the way God made it. To me, incest seems horrific. Back then, if God said it was pure, it was pure. Sounds weird to me but I wasn't there.
10: As generations pass people forget stuff. The Israelites say the 10 plagues in egypt, watched God part the red sea, and saw the presence of God in the form of a pillar of smoke and fire. Yet they still mad a golden calf to worship when Moses was gone for 40 days. Our sin nature is against God and without His influence we'd all fall away.
11: Sovereign decision. He showed himself to Abraham because of Abraham's faith and one nation was born out of him.
12: That's just an attack on people you disagree with. The educated you speak of chose the same paradigm you have to interpret all they observe. Therefore their conclusions are flawed.
13: Why has the world gone to moral hell in a hand basket since embracing your "science" and systematic removal of God from any public mention. Progressing in a lie is no progress at all.
14: Evidence? Like what? It's all fluff unless you shape your worldview to make certain assumptions.
15: No it's not. That's a flat out lie. There is no fossil record of "change over time" forcing the science gods to posit ridiculous theories like punctuated equilibrium.
16/17: Yous assume the God who spoke the universe into being can't move continents that used to be together?
18: No we were created by the same creator and we differ tremendously with as little a 2% differences in DNA.
19: Who are you to judge what's cruel or not?
20: I believe God said "Bang" and there it was. He put the stars in the sky and can bring their light to earth at His will. Geological estimations of planetary age are super flawed in all the assumptions they make that are starting to fall apart. Everything points to the greatness of God unless your trying to prove he doesn't exist by assuming He doesn't exist. You claim I use circular reasoning???
21: Like what? I'll wager your not familiar with the models you speak of but are quoting the work of others who have decided first to look through your paradigm.
22: Useful knowledge? Tell me exactly what about quantum mechanics has made the world a better place to live. Yet if the world lived by nothing more than the 10 commandments there would be no war, poverty, evil, etc...
23: The study of quantum mechanics is completely irrelevant to the message of the Bible. Within our relationship with God we have tremendous latitude to do whatever we want with our lives. It's the pleasure of God to hide the mysteries of the universe; it's the joy of kings to find them.
24: Appear? Appear? You weren't there when it happened. You have no idea. same God created man and ape. Similarities are irrelevant and expected.
25: God said "Bang" just because you claim it was from chance and I say it was from God's will doesn't change the fact that residual energies will be hanging around.
26: Yeah they are moving apart and furthermore even accelerating. It's God's design. How does this change anything. You don't understand that this universe is completely subject to the will of God.
27: He has made it so. How many ways can you ask this question?
28: God spoke the universe into being. He is that powerful.
29: Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. If you have not made Jesus your personal Lord then you shall be cast into hell where your science will be of little comfort. Please recognize that the sincerest belief in a lie can not make that lie true.
30: It's called prophecy and a lot of it appears to be coming true before our eyes right now. Read the 24th chapter of Matthew and compare it to 2011 so far.

Most of your big buster questions are just attacks against Christians and God. I don't expect to convince you but I want you to know that there are many like me that aren't afraid of you and your "science". You build a brick wall a thousand feet high and a million miles long but it's as thin as paper. Holes are punched through it but the institution you call science has an agenda. Until you are willing to question the paradigm, you'll be blind to it though. I pray that God would soften your heart so you can hear again.
Best of luck in the mean time

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


You at least need to have some evidence that backs up creationism if it is going to be taught in schools.

What evidence would you present if you were to teach it? Discrediting/disproving the natural order of things doesn't equal evidence for creationism.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


Creationism is not science however. It has no empirical evidence, it is not falsifiable, and it is not observable. So, why should it be taught in a science class next to a scientific theory? Also, who decides what form of Creationism to teach? Creationists seem fine with teaching the Christian version of Creation, but I have a feeling that if schools started teaching the Hindu version of Creation or the Norse version of Creation then most of these Creationists would be making many of the same arguments that scientists are making against Christian Creationism.

The faulty nature of mankind is to see patterns where none exists - what you see as evidence for a big bang, I see as evidence for an exploded star billions of light years away. That could explain the outward thrust of the celestial bodies in our universe.... Just and idea though.

Also, the sun shrinks by x amount every year - by the current rate of shrinking, you could take the inverse of that and add it to the mathimatical calculations that have already determined the rate of shrinkage - and by that scientific standard the sun would be well past earth only a few million years ago.

Here is what I have learned in my life - theories come and theories go. One evidence today is disproven by another evidence tomorrow.

You say there is no evidence, because you refuse to see the evidence.

There is evidence that our history is not exactly what science says it is - as well as proof to say that our biblical past isn't exactly what it says it is.

What is the more likley of the situations? For me the more likley is that somewhere in the mix between the two is the truth.

Again, I don't really like to debate these kinds of topics, because it always keeps each other in a circle.

If you don't beleive in creationisim that's fine - just tell your kids it isn't real.

But, since you see it as a fairy tale, just treat it as that way and ignore it....

I don't get upset every time I hear some adult telling their kid about the tooth-fairy, or Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny....

Just relax, don't get so worked up about it, and inform your kids it isn't real.

For those people who do beleive in it, let them educate their kids as they would like as well.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle

Also, the sun shrinks by x amount every year - by the current rate of shrinking, you could take the inverse of that and add it to the mathimatical calculations that have already determined the rate of shrinkage - and by that scientific standard the sun would be well past earth only a few million years ago.

I have addressed this claim in the Dinosaur thread. For one there is no peer-reviewed article to support this claim. Second it relies on the Sun being a closed system, which is completely not true. The existence of the Sun in no way disproves the age of the solar system or the Earth.

Secondly, I have no problem if parents want to teach their children Creationism. However, it has no place being taught in a school outside of a comparative religions class. Furthermore, just because those are your beliefs doesn't mean that it supersedes scientific findings and it certainly doesn't give you carte blanche to call into question the integrity of scientists who are working in a field of science that does not coincide with your religious beliefs.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


So essentially you are saying to the OP, that it is pointless to be talking about this at all? One is based in science, the other, theology....

by the way, I agree.

I don't believe we should have to appease our rationale for their beliefs. Yes, it's us and them, once again.
they have to swallow their pride and admit defeat. there is none of that crazy fantasy in our real world.

reply to post by Atzil321


Young Earth and creationism reside in
the pervue of the truly Ignorant.

How can any reasonable person, with an ounce of education
believe that the earth is only 6000 years old.

Scarily the same people who believe in God.

and even more scarily the same people who run for and become presidents.

ouch

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior


Pretty much. I don't care if a parent raises their child as a Creationist, but they shouldn't be surprised when their child fails a biology class because they said dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan. We are lucky to live in a time where science is separate from religion as opposed to being dictated by it. Unfortunately people are unwilling to reconcile their faith with modern science and instead come up with some insane claim like every scientists is in on a conspiracy to discredit God, even those scientists who are religious. It's a classic case of cognitive dissonance. By the way, nice avatar.

Why would one even need to challenge the assertion that "A wizard did it"? Creationism itself is easily ignored as it's an absurd notion that will forever lack any evidence. Evidence to creationists is typically a correlation based on assumption not based in any scientific notions.

Fact is; it would he difficult to convince a creationist that their ideas are flawed so why even bother? Ignore them, eventually they'll either realize how lonely it is or they'll all get together and form a cult and go away or something. Either way, we win.