12-year-old boy jailed for 30 years

Ok just a bit of clarification on the relative number of criminals in Norway compared to the U.S. or any other country for that matter. Norway has a population of roughly 5 million people, while the United States has 313 million people. So when you start making comparisons you need to talk per capita, not just make a list of historic public cases.

Crime Rate in Norway

Crime Rate in U.S.

so as you can see the Murder and Rape instances are about 2 times that of Norway, while the theft rate is actually lower. But then you compare other countries...

Crime Rate in UK

you find it has Murder and Rape roughly equal to Norway, but theft is an even bigger jump.

So yes the U.S has about twice as many Violent crimes as Norway or the UK, but far less "Non Violent" crimes. I am sure there is an entire lifetime of Sociology that can be studied here to find the causes for these numbers, but I can guarantee it is not solely the result of the prison system, and the use, or not, of capital punishment. But to argue the numbers is futile, the U.S. does have more violent crime, there is no way you can deny that.

reply to post by Vitchilo


Ummmmmmm, at 12, 30 years isnt the rest of his life. Not even close.

After reading the real news story about what happened, yes the 12 year old deserved the sentence.

Gotta love typical ATS sensationalism with no facts or sources to back up claims other than single cut and paste sentence to backup 1 side.

Originally posted by Brokenbackrest
He shot the man and tried to cover it up, now he will pay for his crimes. Good riddance. His family should lose all social security payments as well should they be getting any.

edit on 19-8-2011 by Brokenbackrest because: (no reason given)

I have said it before, and I will say it again. The only reason why people adopt this type of lynch mob mentality, is because they have not yet had such things done to themselves; so they consider themselves spectators, as it does no harm to them if they condemn someone else. The Golden Rule has been thrown completely out the window.

Your self-righteousness is betrayed by your callousness. You are not as virtuous as you think.

Originally posted by byeluvolk
But to argue the numbers is futile, the U.S. does have more violent crime, there is no way you can deny that.

edit on 20-8-2011 by byeluvolk because: (no reason given)

America has a much more violent culture than virtually any other country on the planet, in general terms. Americans do not understand, that the same mentality which condones (and indeed applauds) the death penalty and locking children up for life, is exactly that which produces its' higher levels of violent crime.

There is no such thing as morally superior and inferior forms of violence. There is only violence.

reply to post by kn0wh0w


hmm i think you mean its too human, cages werent invented by animals unless your willing to admit we all are animals, that would be crazy, we were created by a cosmic father figure thats now off screwing hookers and neglecting his children, so now confined in solitary, physicaly or mentaly gone mad enough to manipulate other people into killing, or covering it up by blaming them, eather way left alone with your own dark side long enough you will go crazy, where i live juvinille detention is solitary confinement, i had hard time so i wasnt even allowed to have a window, but its just the same as kids being taught by the media at the mercy of some video game inventor or tv write whos on some unnamed cia agents paylist

reply to post by petrus4



Actually that was my point in the end. Just saying that is the cause is terribly inaccurate. The myriad inner workings of a society can’t be boiled down to simplistic statements like this. The punishment may indeed play a part, or it may not. The point is there is a lifetime of Sociology there, and there is no way to just pin it on one problem. You could say it is because of the music industry, it promotes gang violence which is about 3/4 of the violent crime in the U.S. You can blame it on a decline of Christianity, and thus a drop in moral values. You can blame it on Hollywood, as movies glorifying crime. You can blame it on the endless string of wars, as people return with PTSD might be more violent. You can blame it on lazy parenting, for not teaching their kids how to behave. You can blame it on the welfare system, for allowing many generations of families to subside with no regard for social behavior.

All of these points I have seen argued here on ATS in the last month alone. My point is that you can’t simplify it like this. It is the society as a whole, there is no way to strip out a single thing and hold it up as an example. Many of the things we discuss here on ATS may seem on the surface to be a big issue, but only because they pertain to our life specifically. While in the big picture this item we cling to as the most important topic may have so little impact in the grand scheme that it is laughable.

As I said there is no way to deny the violent crimes are twice that of UK and Norway, But to hold up one idea as “The Cause” is silly. It is far more complex an equation that that. And on top of this how do you explain the 68% higher theft rate in UK? If the American society is prone to breed more criminals why is it only on the side of rape and murder? What is it about Norway, and especially the UK that breeds such higher theft rates? I am just pointing out that there is no easy answer, as it can’t be described in terms of a single cause. The equation has hundreds of variables, and there is no way to isolate one of them.

Originally posted by Akasirus
You don't spark a child to get him to stop.

Well then, your child wasn't like my girlfriend's.

My GF had made the mistake of worrying that her daughter wouldn't love her if there was discipline. When I moved in, I had to straighten out a couple of things. My new daughter was right as rain in no time and is now an amazing 10 year old who can tell you how the government and religion are full of crap

reply to post by Vitchilo


Warn me again. Go ahead. This is the result of Conservative/TeaBag policies for YEARS in a red state that thinks the answer to everything is prison. I'll say it again and forever. Ban me if you want. I do NOT care. This is the inevitable result of a Nation that takes joy in the death penalty.

What we call kids these days are not the kids of the past today a "kid" can do nearly anything they like and just about get away with it, WHY? because we have allowed them to do it, because they are kids and no one can hurt them or hurt there feelings for Christ sakes give me a break with that load of #. I say if a young person wants to attack like a man hit like a man and then he should be treated like a man. back in the day if a 12 year old pulled a gun and shot cold another man then he would be hung or shot on site like a man would be. If you do not want young people in these situations let them know that just because they are young does not mean you wont pay for your crimes.

He is old enough to know what he is doing.

There were 12 year old kids taking part in the english riots along with 20-somethings. So they are thugs and will be thugs.

He will probably be in juvie till he is 18 depending on what sentence he gets and according to a more neutral news article he shot the guy twice so it doesn't look good for him and he'll probably go to prison when he is an adult.

I believe though that the parents should accept some responsibility here.

CIA should be investing in 12-year old assassins as if they are caught everyone will be swept up to feel sorry for them.

Originally posted by Artofcomedy
What we call kids these days are not the kids of the past

Not much room for a second line.

Originally posted by Strictsum
I have an eleven year old son myself, he'll be 12 in two months and I can see how easy it would be for an older child to intimidate him into something. I just had a long talk with him about this. He's still such a baby though, I can't imagine what the family of this child is going through. Not to say the victims family isn't suffering, I know they are

It's such a shame, such a shame.

edit on 19-8-2011 by Strictsum because: edit

I agree completely. A moment of madness caused by fear of the bully, it sounds like. So easily done but thankfully it's rare. I hope he's okay wherever he is and there's some sort of review of the case.

Originally posted by Motumz

Yeah you wouldn't know. Are you the judge? No. Are you involved in any part of this case? No. So shut the # up and stop acting like you know everything. I hope you or any of your future kids are arrested for a crime you didn't commit, and get life. Go # yourself.

"the fact is" What fact? You just read a little bit of the case and you're arrogant self thinks you're a god damn judge. You fail, and you're pathetic. I'll be sending horrid vibes your way.

I hope someone close to you gets killed, then we will see if you honestly disagree with my stance, until then, I've reported your post, when you can debate like a grown up, come and talk to me.

reply to post by Vitchilo


Im new to this site, joined about 10 mins ago because of a scientific topic, I hadn't seen anything about this 12yr old lad till i was fully registered and it took me to the home page where I was just scolling down and saw the 'headline' 12yr old boy jailed for 30yrs.

I started to read what had been written and the comments made and OMG!!! (thats 'oh my god' for those who dont know) not one person asked the first question that came into my head.......
WHY?????
Unless this is a case of severe mental illness or something along those lines, WHY would a 12 yr old child do this or be a willing part to it ??
Just take a minute to think what are the circumstances that took place that pushed this young boy so far off the edge and whoever else was involved to the extreme of actually 'killing'or be apart of planning to kill an adult in cold blood?
Pointing a gun at someone is easy, actually pulling the trigger is something else.
What about this boys best friend? Whats happened to him?
And one very important point (i tend to think so anyway), Do we know all the facts of this case?

I 100% believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that this is just mine but it doesn't make it right. Im absolutely horrified at some of the comments people have written from just hearsay or someone else's opinion.
Please before you lock this boy up with the worst of the worst and throw away the key, have all the facts in front of you.
Yes he may well be as guilty as hell and done all that he's been accused of but it doesnt change the fact that in the eyes of the law he is a 12 years old CHILD! !

Should he be tried as an adult? Simply put, No, because he isn't.
Should he be in an Adult prison? Are you kidding me, a young 12 yr old boy locked up with aload of men some of whom have been there an awfully long time (if you get me).

I do not and never would agree with the taking of someones life or any crime against another human being, i am a Spiritualist and believe noone has that right no matter what the circumstances, Im no goody two shoes and certainly no angel believe me, iv wanted to kill someone,, to make him feel every inch of pain, physical and mental, make him suffer so bad that he'd wish he WAS dead, 'him' being the man who raped my 13yr old daughter last september, also not forgetting the man who mentally, physically and sexually abused someone extremely close to me for 10years without anyone suspecting a thing. I know im not the only one who's ever felt like that and certainly wont be the last.

Whether he did or didnt pull the trigger, was or wasnt part of some plan to commit murder I dont know and probably never will but should he pay for this if he is guilty as an adult? Certainly not!!!!

While I disagree with such a long sentence for a child, this murder was a planned weeks in advance by theses boys:

Lundy said he had to kill his stepfather because he wanted his divorced parents to get back together again. That wouldn't be possible if Danner was involved.

Lundy and Gingerich each fired two shots at Danner. Kosciusko County Detective Jonathan Tyler has testified Lundy talked about his plan to kill Danner with several boys on a playground in their neighborhood on April 20. Lundy then went back to his home and got Danner's revolver and semi-automatic handgun.

link www.wane.com...

I've seen adult murderers get less time. I suspect the sentence will be reduced at some point in the future

reply to post by Brokenbackrest


You should never wish for something like that to happen to another. Karma really does have a way of coming right back at you and biting you in the bum. If you've suffered the lose of a child or anyone else for that mater I really do understand and can unfortunately relate, but whatever the circumstances surrounding that death would you really want to wish that on another person?

Originally posted by Loopysparks
reply to post by Brokenbackrest

 

You should never wish for something like that to happen to another. Karma really does have a way of coming right back at you and biting you in the bum. If you've suffered the lose of a child or anyone else for that mater I really do understand and can unfortunately relate, but whatever the circumstances surrounding that death would you really want to wish that on another person?

I don't wish it, but it would certainly change someone's virulant liberalism

reply to post by megabogie


As I said I dont know the circumstances or details of this case whatsoever, I just disagree with the way this case has been dealt with. The 1st post on this matter that i read stats that this boy didn't pull the trigger so how can he be done for murder? It also says that he apparantely had no knowledge of any plan being hatched to shoot his friends stepfather, i do find that hard to believe, that his 'bestfriend' would plan this murder involving his bestfriend all by himself and not say anything, I find it hard to believe that this lad had no idea this was going to happen but him being tried as an adult when he isn't is just wrong.