For anyone that has any doubt as to the identity of Jesus Christ

reply to post by ManOfGod267


Don’t worry about that jesus copying thing, there will be a Christian along in a moment to tell you Satan done it


The priesthood has a history of telling the flock they are currently shearing what to believe (always to the benefit of the priesthood)

A good example of this is the ten commandments
everybody knows First Tables of Stone (Exodus 20) - version of the ten commandments

But everybody forgets these where broken, back up the hill for Moses (Exodus 34) for the new set of ten commandments, which are for some reason differnt from the first lot for example

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

I love Exodus 34 26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God - yep god's going to really enjoy those best firstfruits and don't forget that tenth commandment about the baby goat

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Jesus Christ is God, he IS the Word made flesh as John the Baptist stated. . .

This unusual statement by you caused me to take a closer look at this verse, so here is my translation:
"There came about a situation to where the message of God to humanity dwelt among us"
I realize that the KJB makes it sound like the word was created somehow into flesh, but the word translated as Made, as it is found in John 1:14, is never used to mean that.
"It just happened to be this way", is how it should be understood in this construction, and the "happen to be" is the dwelling among us.
I don't know why it was translated as it was, other than to make a particular point out of it for a doctrinal reason I suppose. But there is just no way that it is the right way to translate it. This is maybe the greatest hoax ever perpetrated, is all I can figure. I seriously recommend that everyone think again on this whole thing, in the light of what the Greek text is saying. I often see people using this verse as proof that Jesus is God, but it is nothing of the kind.

ETA: I never bothered to translate this particular verse before because I never depended on it as some sort of proof and just looking at it in its full context shows it had to be understood like that anyway. My translation is just a confirmation of it, to me.
That does not mean I went about it with that already in mind as my result. I went through several steps to arrive at my final result and was willing to accept whatever the text was going to show me.

edit on 27-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yes, but you see there is more than that one verse. Jesus being the Son, is one part of the Trinity a part of God therefore one would not be wrong in saying Jesus is God because thats what Christ is. He IS Immanu'el "God who walked amoung us". I don't know why you call it a "hoax", Hoaxes are done for the purpose of gaining attention and notoriety, Claiming Jesus Christ was God would have gotten you killed as a heretic on some Dominican's wooden horse or burned at the stake and it did happen, hardly the kind of attention anyone wanted to draw to themselves. Jesus also claimed before the pharisees "I AM, the truth the life and the way" I AM in bold letters, proving who he is and there are many more times he claims to be I AM, i'll post a link. It was these "I AM" statements that got him crucified, even after Nicodemus testified to his miracles. In the end the pharisees could not see beyond his I AM statements, they just wanted to kill him. Jesus fought back and forth with the pharisees over their selfrighteousness when in their hearts they only wanted to look good in the eyes of men and had greed and pride in their hearts. I AM is the titled claimed by God, Jesus said I AM many times therefore he IS God.

www.answering-islam.org...

When we pray, we pray to the Lord, whom Jesus Christ is also called "in Jesus' name, we pray Amen", we don't pray in yhwh's name. The "Lord" is a shortened title for "the Lord of Hosts", he has also been called the "Alpha and Omega" the beginning and the end, God created us and he shall end us. This is all what God is. Therefore Jesus IS God. Why else do you think we do our works for Christ's Glory? Why do you think we sing to Him? God told Adam he would save us, and he did when He came as Jesus the Christ.

I'm not knocking your beliefs, you can believe whatever you want, but I have recieved the Holy Spirit and have witnessed to the truth of my beliefs and i have stood in the presence of the Lord, this not a feeling you will ever forget once you have experienced it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yes, but you see there is more than that one verse.

That particular verse (John 1:14) is the one people zero in on. They go from the second clause of verse one, ". . .the word was God. . ." (without asking themselves what that actually means) to the fourteenth verse (without taking any of the intervening text into account) "the word became flesh" (without wondering what that means), then turn their edited version of the Bible into a slogan, "The Bible says 'the word was God and the word became flesh' so that means Jesus is God.", without stopping to see what any of the parts meant.

Jesus being the Son, is one part of the Trinity a part of God therefore one would not be wrong in saying Jesus is God because thats what Christ is.

Christ is, as in the definition of the term, in the context of the davidic line of succession, is a title based on a physical event of anointing but with the understanding that being king involves having also the designation of being adopted as the son of God. Saying the word, Trinity, is bringing the cart before the horse, in that you are using that as an argument to base your initial assumption, when that should be the conclusion. There is no such terminology in the Bible, as a trinity or even triune. What I do accept is that Jesus was some sort of god-like person prior to his incarnation, and that seems clear enough to me. The Jesus being God is a oxymoron to me, in that I don't think a human person can be actually that, while at the same time being God. For one thing, he never was The God, as in God the Father who is alone above all others because that would also be a contradiction of terms. Philippians 2:5-6 says that he did not cling to his being God but accepted his being a man. What seems evident to me is that on account of his anointing to be Messiah, God the Father gave him a full indwelling of the Holy Spirit that was beyond what any single person before him had ever been given, to where none was lacking that he could possibly have had. This was evidence enough to the writer of John 1 that Jesus was a very unique person and was in fact the Son of God, beyond what anyone else could have ever previously made claim to.

He IS Immanu'el "God who walked amoung us".

To show God's special favor.

I don't know why you call it a "hoax",

The hoax is the intentional mistranslation of John 1:14.

Hoaxes are done for the purpose of gaining attention and notoriety, Claiming Jesus Christ was God would have gotten you killed as a heretic on some Dominican's wooden horse or burned at the stake and it did happen, hardly the kind of attention anyone wanted to draw to themselves. Jesus also claimed before the pharisees "I AM, the truth the life and the way" I AM in bold letters, proving who he is and there are many more times he claims to be I AM, i'll post a link. It was these "I AM" statements that got him crucified, even after Nicodemus testified to his miracles. In the end the pharisees could not see beyond his I AM statements, they just wanted to kill him. Jesus fought back and forth with the pharisees over their selfrighteousness when in their hearts they only wanted to look good in the eyes of men and had greed and pride in their hearts. I AM is the titled claimed by God, Jesus said I AM many times therefore he IS God.

You are talking about something else here, which sounds like to me that you think that the saying that Jesus was God was intentionally left out of the NT because it would have caused the books to be destroyed. I was saying that you find a book written a long long time ago and you are not in the midst of a persecution of Christians, what do you do with this text written in an ancient language? Do you try your best to get the literal meaning out of it, or do you want the book to promote your church doctrine which happens to have this Trinity thing already in it? From my little three hour study of the Greek words in that verse, I have to conclude that the choice was for the latter. They chose to make it sound like something completely different than the meaning conveyed in all the other 195 instances of that particular form of the Greek word in the NT. They also chose to ignore how everywhere else the word, Logos, is interpreted when it butts up against another noun.

. . .I have recieved the Holy Spirit and have witnessed to the truth of my beliefs and i have stood in the presence of the Lord, this not a feeling you will ever forget once you have experienced it.

In this format, meaning a discussion forum on the internet, you need to repeat that testimony in every single post, and not just refer to it as if any reader who happens onto one of your posts knows what that was.

reply to post by bogomil

But some people never learn and yearn for the good old times of self-proclaimed authority.

Those were the days.

I was quite disturbed listening to the radio here in the US. Someone from ___Endowment for Peace was discussing how US and NATO success in Libya could serve as a new model for future military actions, and even started developing strategy.

It's an upside down world in which military strategy is developed in peace organizations. 'divine right', 'chosen by god' etc all still boils down to 'might makes right'. A dark age concept of trial by combat to determine which side is 'right'. Even non-specific religion plays into the game. Liberal Egalitarian principles are losing on the field of combat. That doesn't prove anything to me, nor should it.

This is off-topic, so I will retire from this thread.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

With my interpretation comments inserted:

2TI 4:1 In the presence of ....[this version of]....God and of .....[this optional]..... Christ Jesus, who will... [according to some].... judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom ...[if it happens]..., I ...[on self-proclaimed authority]... give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke... [violence justified by OT in case]... and encourage--with great patience and careful ...[one-way]... instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine...[i.e. what's 'authorized'].... Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of...[liberal]... teachers to say what their itching ears...[or inquisition-tortured bodies]..... want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth...[this 'truth'].... and turn aside to myths....[other myths].... But you, keep your head in all situations...[stop thinking by yourself]...., endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your....[self-proclaimed].... ministry.

That is just another way of looking at it.

I prefer to read the words as they are with an open mind and an open heart.


MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

MT 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" `You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

MT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

MT 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Originally posted by XplanetX

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by XplanetX

 

With my interpretation comments inserted:

2TI 4:1 In the presence of ....[this version of]....God and of .....[this optional]..... Christ Jesus, who will... [according to some].... judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom ...[if it happens]..., I ...[on self-proclaimed authority]... give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke... [violence justified by OT in case]... and encourage--with great patience and careful ...[one-way]... instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine...[i.e. what's 'authorized'].... Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of...[liberal]... teachers to say what their itching ears...[or inquisition-tortured bodies]..... want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth...[this 'truth'].... and turn aside to myths....[other myths].... But you, keep your head in all situations...[stop thinking by yourself]...., endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your....[self-proclaimed].... ministry.

That is just another way of looking at it.

I prefer to read the words as they are with an open mind and an open heart.


MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

MT 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" `You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

MT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

MT 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

edit on 27-8-2011 by XplanetX because: (no reason given)

I have, as stated, not rewritten the quote. My inserts are for interpretation purposes;...... interpretation appearing to be a common phenomenon amongst many of the christianities; leading to different results.

reply to post by pthena


Well, there is an OLD saying, and i mean OLD. It goes like this "History is written by the victors" and this is true. You never read of histories from the losing side.

Look at Hannibal, after he failed to conquer Rome, he went home and Carthage was destroyed and forgotten. He died and that was that, no more mention of his peoples and where they went to or how many survived if any.

Look at the Canaanites, they totally disappeared from history, all we got to go on that they even existed is the bible and the vitrified and charred remains of Jericho and the skeletons found therein. no mention of survivors or where they fled and who they became, they just disappeared.

Look at the sumerians, the only thing we have from them is clay tablets from the great library of ashurabanipal and the cylinder seals they made, all trace of their peoples disappeared with no trace as to where the survivors went or who they became.

History does not favor the losers, Hitler and mussolini found that out first hand. Now we have little rhymes about them that goes like this "Hitler was a jerk, mussolini pulled his weeney now it doesn't work" (something my grandfather was singing in his sleep, he was a boy in WW2).

reply to post by racasan


*facepalm* Jesus mythicists. Where do you guys get off being so dishonest? First of all, Hermes was a god of shepards among other things, so even if that was a sheep it would make sense with him being a god-patron of shepards. Furthermore, it would make sense that Roman Christians would borrow that imagery during the persecutions to make their iconography ambiguous and unassuming, but that doesn't make Hermes a Christ prototype in the slightest. For instance in Japan during the institution of Fumi-e and the persecution of the Christians, the local Japanese Kiris h i tans (stupid overreactive censor) developed ambiguous devotional images of Christ and the Virgin Mary that resemble Bodhistavas. Does this mean that Christianity came out of Japanese Shinto-Buddhism? This is all moot, however because that isn't even a sheep

At the Boeotian city of Tanagra, Pausanias relates a local myth that credited the god [Hermes] with saving the city in a time of plague, by carrying a ram on his shoulders as he made the circuit of the city's walls: There are sanctuaries of Hermes Kriophoros and of Hermes called Promachos.[1] They account for the former surname by a story that Hermes averted a pestilence from the city by carrying a ram round the walls; to commemorate this Calamis made an image of Hermes carrying a ram upon his shoulders. Whichever of the youths is judged to be the most handsome goes round the walls at the feast of Hermes, carrying a lamb on his shoulders.[2]

As far as your progression of the equinox theory, I don't know what to say to that. You warp everything so out of context it isn't even funny. Do I have to point out that idol worship was the norm at that time? That Taurus is a bull and the Golden Calf was not? Do I need to point out that there was no concept of the "Age of Taurus" at that time, nor a defined GREEK Zodiac? Even if the Babylonian Zodiac was known to the ancient Israelites, it didn't correspond to the modern one in the slightest. www.tektonics.org...

Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by racasan

 

*facepalm* Jesus mythicists. Where do you guys get off being so dishonest? First of all, Hermes was a god of shepards among other things, so even if that was a sheep it would make sense with him being a god-patron of shepards. Furthermore, it would make sense that Roman Christians would borrow that imagery during the persecutions to make their iconography ambiguous and unassuming, but that doesn't make Hermes a Christ prototype in the slightest. For instance in Japan during the institution of Fumi-e and the persecution of the Christians, the local Japanese Kiris h i tans (stupid overreactive censor) developed ambiguous devotional images of Christ and the Virgin Mary that resemble Bodhistavas. Does this mean that Christianity came out of Japanese Shinto-Buddhism? This is all moot, however because that isn't even a sheep

I don’t see how any of this helps your case but it does help me, the fact the there is an underlying Christ myth and that people would adapt it to local condition/beliefs is what I was pointing out

As far as your progression of the equinox theory, I don't know what to say to that. You warp everything so out of context it isn't even funny. Do I have to point out that idol worship was the norm at that time? That Taurus is a bull and the Golden Calf was not?

you needed you to provide some evidence for that, because there does seem to be a tradition during the age of Taurus for worshipping bulls

There’s Apis for example
en.wikipedia.org...

note the disc between the horns
www.bible-history.com...
or
www.crystalinks.com...
or
earthlore.org...

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the disc between the horns of a bull is symbolic of the sun in Taurus

Which would lead to
i172.photobucket.com...
the prototype sun god with mother?

Do I need to point out that there was no concept of the "Age of Taurus" at that time, nor a defined GREEK Zodiac? Even if the Babylonian Zodiac was known to the ancient Israelites, it didn't correspond to the modern one in the slightest. www.tektonics.org...

edit on 28-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)

Job 38:
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?

Mazzaroth is most likely a reference to the zodiac and interestingly the Pleiades is part of the constellation of Taurus
www.song-of-the-stars.com...