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The napkin is good inside cosmos, don't try to bring it with you 'outside'.
Said good advice completely ignored by all the 'rationalizing' theists, who have a need to 'prove' their faith (for conversion reasons?) and who turn the whole thing upside down. 'Inside' cosmos they ignore the napkin, 'outside' they try to bring it with them. The very sad examples of 'intelligent design', 'quantum religions' and the bible as 'objective', all of which just makes christian extremism look silly (unless you are a christian extremist, from where it looks brilliant).
Here's a bit of a summary of his philosophy from Wikipedia.
Thirdly, nobody taught this legalistic view of atonement for the first thousand years of the Church's existence, until Anselm came along.
It would be necessary probably to read the whole section in the article to get what he was doing in creating a salvation theory.
His philosophy rests on three positions—first, that satisfaction is necessary on account of God's honour and justice; second, that such satisfaction can be given only by the peculiar personality of the God-man Jesus; and, third, that such satisfaction is really given by this God-man's voluntary death.
The Dude: Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
but all of the flawed thinking has me very perturbed.. some of the more hypothetical (hypocritical) responses is that some people can believe in certain types of history
6) His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want
us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet
shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."
- - Gospel of Thomas
5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which
is hidden from you will become plain to you.
- - Gospel of Thomas
no one is learning, everyone tries teaching.
The pure fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls don’t mention Jesus should debunk the theory that Jesus was himself an Essene. There are a handful of scrolls written after the life of Jesus, and it would seem that if Jesus was such a significant religious leader of the group that they would have written about him.
In his 2003 interim class on the scrolls, Pomykala's students learned why the non-biblical scrolls are valuable, too. "The scrolls don't mention Jesus, John the Baptist or any other New Testament person. But they shed light on the world of Jesus and remind Christians where they came from," he said.
22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.
why does the discussion about jesus' identity bring in the dead sea scrolls?
MT 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
MT 2:18 "A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."
JER 31:15 This is what the LORD says:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."
JER 31:16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD.
"They will return from the land of the enemy.
Originally posted by schitzoandro
reply to post by pthena
i completely agree with you
and regarding the beginning of this thread... why does the discussion about jesus' identity bring in the dead sea scrolls?
www.ancientmonks.com...
The pure fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls don’t mention Jesus should debunk the theory that Jesus was himself an Essene. There are a handful of scrolls written after the life of Jesus, and it would seem that if Jesus was such a significant religious leader of the group that they would have written about him.
www.calvin.edu...
In his 2003 interim class on the scrolls, Pomykala's students learned why the non-biblical scrolls are valuable, too. "The scrolls don't mention Jesus, John the Baptist or any other New Testament person. But they shed light on the world of Jesus and remind Christians where they came from," he said.
... and from the OP's link...
www.centuryone.com...
22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.
i have had a few profound thoughts myself... but i must've inserted foot in mouth insteadedit on 24-8-2011 by schitzoandro because: add goodnessedit on 24-8-2011 by schitzoandro because: grammar!!edit on 24-8-2011 by schitzoandro because: just to edit again..
Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by schitzoandro
why does the discussion about jesus' identity bring in the dead sea scrolls?
That's merely an attempt to bolster the Old Testament as authority.
The OP is attempting to 'prove' Jesus is the Old Testament Messiah by comparing OT with NT claims of 'fulfillment'. It really falls apart upon examination. Such comparisons actually are evidence that Jesus is a fictitious character made up as an amalgam of 'fulfilled' prophecy.
I'll give my own example:
MT 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
MT 2:18 "A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."
JER 31:15 This is what the LORD says:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."
JER 31:16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD.
"They will return from the land of the enemy.
The Jeremiah reference has nothing to do with slaughtered children, but rather, children taken captive.
But here's the kicker: Rachel was the mother of Joseph and Benjamin. How would that have anything to do with Judah, the tribe Jesus is said to descend from.
Matthew is full of such supposed fulfillments. The genealogy is mostly copied out of the Judean kings. Many of the succeeding kings were uncles or nephews, not sons. Many are dropped so as to end up with the 14 generation scheme.
People who use this method as proof make a mockery of the real man.
Why would you post links to it, then?
I want to make it clear that I only use these references for the genealogy, nothing more.
Are you seriously contending with the genealogy of Jesus according to the gospels?
The names that Matthew omits are the ones that Luke includes.
MT 1:17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
I hope that clears things up for you and also for those that you are misleading.
1TI 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Heb6:20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
HEB 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Most of the new testament scripture was written at least 10 to 20 years after the death of Christ.
Most of the scrolls and fragments found amongst the dead sea scrolls were from the Old testament and were written in the ancient Hebrew language. Only very few fragments and scrolls discovered were written in Aramaic or ancient Greek.
Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by XplanetX
Why would you post links to it, then?
I want to make it clear that I only use these references for the genealogy, nothing more.
The first one made me a bit ill.
The prophecy of the serpent having its head crushed was fulfilled by the virgin birth. What?
Originally posted by schitzoandro
reply to post by XplanetX
Most of the new testament scripture was written at least 10 to 20 years after the death of Christ.
Most of the scrolls and fragments found amongst the dead sea scrolls were from the Old testament and were written in the ancient Hebrew language. Only very few fragments and scrolls discovered were written in Aramaic or ancient Greek.
i understand that, and although i do not read hebrew, aramaic or greek, i am still not sure what this has to do with what i was asking, and that is why would the dead sea scrolls be related to proof of jesus, when what has been found intact does not mention jesus? don't get me wrong, i truly believe there was a jesus christ, no matter the controversy, and i am not arguing who he was, son of god or conman, either way history would state that he was here on this planet... maybe he was an alien? again, i am not questioning who he was or if he existed, although i have read deeply into holy roman empire history, and i have read that he was idea to control the masses, and although it would sound good in theory, he is not equal to santa claus or the easter bunny even though family guy may lead us to believe differently... okay, i am rambling, there is too much to discuss here...
back me up, i believe in the person, the ideal, whatever you want to believe him to be, my point was the dead see scrolls, as far as i have read, all lead me to believe the same thing, jesus was not mentioned in them... that is what i am trying to understand, why did this thread take us towards the dead sea scrolls as proof to the identity of jesus?
let me also point out that being raised catholic, i had a teacher in 5th grade, one of the most influential people in my life, she taught me about the trust fall (you know, where you fall back and allow someone else to catch you), and she also taught me that the beginning of the bible is not necessarily true, that adam and eve was just a way to start a story.. YES, MY 5TH GRADE RELIGION TEACHER TAUGHT US THIS, AND I MUST MENTION SHE WAS FIRED THE FOLLOWING YEAR FOR JUST THAT... but she also taught us that this doesn't mean that everything else in the bible was false, and i highly believe there is some truth in there... no matter what it is mixed with, or who it was written by... i guess i am just saying that i do think that there was a man, his name was jesus, beyond that, with all i have been taught, i will not sit and argue about him... that is too much work, and i am no holy roller so i will not attempt to make you believe, i am only here for enlightenment, and the attempt to shed some, to those who will listen.. wow, now that sounded fairly jesus like j/k
i am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, much appreciation to pthena and xplanetx for reading my posts and responding!
-please ignore any grammatical or syntax errors in this post, i am no longer at work, i am home on my laptop which doesn't remind me of mispells and is much harder to notice errors with a little 10 inch screen.. keep this rolling!edit on 24-8-2011 by schitzoandro because: add
i am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, much appreciation to pthena and xplanetx for reading my posts and responding!
she also taught us that this doesn't mean that everything else in the bible was false, and i highly believe there is some truth in there... no matter what it is mixed with, or who it was written by... i guess i am just saying that i do think that there was a man, his name was jesus, beyond that, with all i have been taught, i will not sit and argue about him...
Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by XplanetX
Are you seriously contending with the genealogy of Jesus according to the gospels?
The names that Matthew omits are the ones that Luke includes.
I'm not the one making a thing out of the genealogy, Matthew is:
MT 1:17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.
Some sort of numerology or something.
My Jesus doesn't need to fulfill any numerology or prophecy. Being a human person is enough.
I hope that clears things up for you and also for those that you are misleading.
Then you are willing to toss Matthew out as a liar? If that's not your point, then I confess that I don't know what point you have cleared up.
How can I mislead if I don't attempt to lead?
Bonus scriptures:
1TI 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
TIT 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Heb6:20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
HEB 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
Disclaimer: I merely quote these verses for the specific subject matter. I in no way endorse them as "inerrant word of God".
edit on 24-8-2011 by pthena because: (no reason given)