Where have all the real men gone?

No .. being a man is doing what ever it is that you enjoy regardless of opinion. For instance, I don't care what you think being a "man" is. For me its sitting with my friends drinking, or some it's fishing (i hate fishing), or hunting, or basketball leagues etc.. The emasculated man has no hobby to call his own, few male friends, no designated time to spend alone doing the things he enjoys. I know many like that, and it's a sad thing.

reply to post by Rockpuck


The emasculated man?..or the man who makes time for hard work..and spending time taking his kids to games..and activities? You infer that a real man is the one who does what he enjoys regardless of opinion...and I say a real man takes care of responsibilities first , and his wife and his children will always mean more to him than the "fishing" buddies , or the cronies at the local pub.

Yes ..A real man should have male friends..that he respects ,and can get good advice and support from..as well as a good chuckle and some entertaining hours...but the men friends are not what makes a man...and he is not emasculated if he doesn't have the so called "buddies". Real friendships matter..but often I have seen bickering worse than females about each other (behind their backs)..from these so called 'comrades".

Each to their own ..on what a real man is... but your real man sounds like a guy who can't feel like a real man unless hes around men enjoying their "bonding" time.

You may think I have the problem...thats fine..I'll let that be your problem..

What A real man is 2 me...
Brave, not nessisarily fearless, but willing to fight regarless of circumstance to protect what he cares about, willing to stand up for what he thinks is right/important/ideoligy.
Strong//stronger than the average person but has no need to flaunt it, Instead of picking fights and showing off he is calm and collective and tries to avoid conflict when possible, but realises when conflict cannot be avoided and acts.
And Wise....Wisdom is not the same as intelligence. "Never mistake Intelligence for wisdom. One helps you make a living; the other helps you make a life.”

Example: Most girls, if you asked them to name a real man, it wouldnt surprise me 2 hear them say someone from Jersey shore. But in reality, do you think those self serving,hoe banging jerks are men?
Are they brave? Not in a 1v1 fight but in a situation(see what I did there) where the odds are piled against them.
Are they strong......Would one of them be willing to help someone who cant help/defend themselves?
Are they wise......well I dont watch the show so you tell me....tho im pretty sure I have nothing to worry about

You ask where all the real men have gone?
Simple
They have been cast aside by a society who no longer needs or wants them
Women always complain (bring it ladies) about how all guys are jerks,pigs ect but ironicly its their fault
Such a Standard has been placed on looks that woman want these super rich guys who have it all, Looks, money(what else is there) that Nobel men, who are the definition of what real men should be are cast aside and forgotten. Forgotten by a world thats all to happy to forget them

reply to post by gabby2011


Sorry, but nearly every study proves you wrong. It's been shown countless times that men NEED, in a biological way, male companionship away from the wife on a regular basis (even once a month).
www.lovepanky.com...
www.helpformen.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...

women are the same way.. happy women need friends. I know you seem to have this huge blocking of friendship in your mind here.. but believe it or not a man (or woman for that matter) can be an attentive partner, excellent parent and supportive of the houshold and still have friends that they meet with on a regular basis! It's also been shown that lack of friends for either sex leads to tensions in relationships because of pent of anger and frustration and having no one to talk or relate to.

Surely if you were my wife I'd desperately need to get away....

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Sorry, but nearly every study proves you wrong. It's been shown countless times that men NEED, in a biological way, male companionship away from the wife on a regular basis (even once a month).
www.lovepanky.com...
www.helpformen.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...

women are the same way.. happy women need friends. I know you seem to have this huge blocking of friendship in your mind here.. but believe it or not a man (or woman for that matter) can be an attentive partner, excellent parent and supportive of the houshold and still have friends that they meet with on a regular basis! It's also been shown that lack of friends for either sex leads to tensions in relationships because of pent of anger and frustration and having no one to talk or relate to.

Surely if you were my wife I'd desperately need to get away....

Never did I say having friends was not important...quite the contrary... REAL friends do matter....and spending quality time with your same sex friends is important..but what is more important is quality time with your spouse..as well as your children.

You outright said that a man who doesn't have a male"bonding" group is really not a man...and I know plenty of good men..who may only have a couple of male friends .. who don't regularly meet...but they are still very much real men.

OH..and you don't have to worry about getting away from me if I was your wife...I would never choose a man like you in the first place...

There are plenty of real men out there, I see 'em everyday. Heck, I'm married to one! He works hard, hunts, fish, brings home the bacon and I fry it up in a pan and he knows how to shoot a gun and protect his own. Every woman friend of mine deep down wants a man who is strong, smart and savy. Intelligence goes a long way as well. To me, that's the most important thing, intelligence and knowing when and how to use it. Maybe it's a cultural thing, living in the midwest and all. Let a man be a man, that's my belief. It doesn't hurt he's my best friend, too.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by klarkowski67
Real men simply have a penis. Women don't. Everything else is a choice.

...what about men who have lost their penis or have had it rendered useless due to battle injuries or cancer?... are they not real men anymore?... imo, they still are cuz theres a lot more to a man than just his genitals...

I don't think he meant it like that. He was going for the purely biological aspect.

This is true, culture dictates what we think is manly and what isn't.

Panty hose are not manly, but they were in the 1600s.

Also, proof that culture dictates it. Hair length. If you live in the contemporary US, long, luscious locks of hair are seen as feminine, unless you are a skater, or a handful of wrestlers, or are back in the 70s, or in an 80s hairband. Men have long hair in other cultures, at other times. Look at Biblical imagery, Jesus, Samson, Moses.

In some cultures men are priests in others it's the women who hold that role. In some cultures men are rulers (more often than not) while in others women have held this role (dynastic families and in matrilineal tribes).

There really is no sure fire way to denote masculinity across temporal and cultural boundaries. When we talk about feminism killing masculinity, it's really a knee-jerk reaction to a paradigm shift. The culture shifted. I don't think it will result in single gender, I just think that it will end up recalibrating roles at the end of the shift.

In other words, I don't think that ALL of the things you see happening will stick. I mean, clearly from the examples I've given above, and others that you can find out for yourself, issues of culture are never permanent. What's masculine now might be feminine in 10 years, 100 years, 1000 years. The only thing that stays steady - only gradually changing with evolution - is the biology involved in gender...and keep in mind, not all biological creatures have gender as do mammals, reptiles and birds - even considering the differences between gender roles in just those groups.

Originally posted by Sphota
culture dictates what we think is manly and what isn't.

...maybe for you but not for me... the dominant culture attempts that bs but its never fully successful cuz theres always those who will resist principles that are contrary to their own...

Originally posted by Sphota
Panty hose are not manly, but they were in the 1600s.

...theres a thread on here somewhere about today's men who wear pantyhose and LOTS of them are very manly men...

Originally posted by Sphota
If you live in the contemporary US, long, luscious locks of hair are seen as feminine, unless you are a skater, or a handful of wrestlers, or are back in the 70s, or in an 80s hairband.

...you left out ndn men who are just as much a valid part of contemporary usofa citizenry as anyone else but i've come to expect that slight...

Originally posted by Sphota
When we talk about feminism killing masculinity, it's really a knee-jerk reaction to a paradigm shift. The culture shifted. I don't think it will result in single gender, I just think that it will end up recalibrating roles at the end of the shift.

...agreed...

reply to post by Rockpuck


Too true brother, A good drink and a bit of banter is what keeps us going when the going gets tough. Too true again with TV, Will and Grace has done wonders for Masculinaty

Ive always been interested in the freemason society, or fraternity as you call it, as one of my ancestors was William St. Clair of Roslin, a Grand Master Mason of the Grand Lodge of Scotland way back in 1736, Therefore I have always had a desire to know more about the Freemason Ideals, Morals and Principalitys and have been intrigued as to how the Society works.

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


What are ndn men?

As far as culture dictating things, I don't know how many examples I can give in one post. Nature provides the framework, nurture fills in the gaps and affects what nature produces the next go around. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Manly to one poster was smoking cigars and drinking scotch. To some Evangelicals, Quakers, Amish and Tea-toddlers in general, manly would not include those things at all and they would be contrary to what a real man is. To them maybe a real man would Love Jesus, or be for peace. That is cultural.

To some people manly is showing your strength and having prowess in a fight. In some social circles, doing this unabashedly would be seen manly, in others it would be seen as foolish. In some cultures, knowing how to have a dialog with the tribal elders or contemplating a situation would be seen as the manly thing to do, rather than just come out swinging. But, in a pure explanation, defending oneself and/or being aggressive are not male or female characteristics...they are living creature characteristics. How they manifest themselves in this or that animal depends on environment. How they manifest themselves in this or that human society depends on their environment - of which culture is a part.

To others, being manly is not doing women's work. But what is women's work in our society might not be so in another. Rearing children is seen as women's work and from a biological standpoint this makes perfect sense. But in some societies, the man is also seen to have a greater or lesser role. In some places, the father is emphasized, in other places the maternal uncle takes on the father role.

In the US it is not considered manly to wear speedos or otherwise "package-revealing" clothing. In the 70s and 80s short-shorts and tight jeans were big here. Now they are seen as gay, as are fanny-packs.

In Brazil, however, speedos are seen as manly and men who wear board shorts or boxers are seen as boyish. Fanny packs are also seen as manly accessories.

I mean, you can go on and on. Culture dictates what is manly and what isn't.

What does it mean to be a man?

1. Overcoming difficulties by applying yourself.

It may be by working with other people, but at some point, the triumph comes from you rising above yourself; whether it is mastering calculus or mastering the longbow. Women overcome things, too; it's a part of individuation. But a man needs to succeed at it to feel like a man.

2. Defeating someone or something that is trying to defeat you.

You can get this from a game of handball or a game of chess. It is more interesting when the struggle involves life-and-death effort, or food. Both of these are what make hunting and fishing so uniquely rewarding. Again, women probably need this as well, for the process of individuation. But men need it to feel like a man.

3. A man needs to feel independent somehow.
A man needs to feel like he is unique, or possesses or creates something, or experiences something uniquely his; the Plains Indian model for this was a vision quest, where the young man went out and exposed himself to the danger of the natural universe. In the midst of facing danger, he expected to find harmony for his own existence. Tibetan mystics practice this, and there are analogues in Freemasonry, and even Moses' and Jesus' own forty days in the wilderness at the beginning of their ministries.

4. A man needs the presence of an organized group of men
Psychologist Carol Gilligan wrote about how men tend to be motivated by a sense of individualism, and women respond to a sense of community. She believed that individuation and emotional maturity come from seeking the opposite of the expectations for your gender; so for men, that means successfully participating in a community--specifically a male community. Nearly every culture except ours has a special male fraternity that helps men realize themselves. Whether its in a Hopi kiva, a hunting society among the !Kung, an Orthadox monastery, a Lakota vow to the sun, a boy scout den meeting, or a masonic lodge, men learn about morals and ethics most meaningfully in a fraternity setting.

5. A man needs to relate positively with women
A man needs to interact in a winning way with a female to meet very deep-seated needs. (I personally believe this is true whether he is gay or straight or bi or aesexual). He needs to impress his mother. He needs his love interest to be proud of him, and to feel a little bit of tension about his manliness---in other words, there needs to be a bit of tension about how he will express his manhood, and he needs to work it out with the woman of his dreams. If he is going to to be monogamous, he needs her to at least acknowledge that it's a choice he's making. He also needs her to acknowledge that he is different from a woman, and that this is ok. If she isn't sometimes grossed out by his body noises and smells, how manly is he, really???

6. A man needs time alone.
He feels more like a man when he asserts himself occasionally in the face of her plans for their shared life together. Many young women have no idea how emasculating it is for a man when they move in together, and she throws out his "man things" and insists that she make all of the decor and home organization choices. If a guy doesn't get to express himself in "her" house, he will usually not argue about it; but he starts spending more and more time out in the garage, until he sets up a "Garage Mahal," and eventually moves out there.

A lot of marriages are attempts by a woman to deny this truth. But a guy can find a time when his "phone gets no reception," whether it's when he's mowing the yard, or when he's changing the oil in her car, he finds moments when he is off by himself. Some guys will pick a job with an intentionally long commute; other men will "work late," without cheating: they just go for a walk in the park before they drive home, or go by a hardware store.

7. A man needs time with other men in a one-on-one basis
Even if it is with "her" dad, or the one of the men in his Sunday school class. He has his individuality affirmed by spending time with other guys who have figured out how to be real men. Males learn this by example. This is why time spent hunting and fishing with friends or dad or son can be some of the most important memories in a fellow's life.

Not every man needs all of these to the same degree. But a guy has to have found some release for each of these needs, or things tend to go badly. Just saying.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Wyn Hawks

 

What are ndn men?

...ndn is shorthand for indigenous (as in american indian) thats been heavily used on all kinds of message boards for more than two decades...

Originally posted by Sphota
As far as culture dictating things, I don't know how many examples I can give in one post.

...who asked you to give examples?... no one...

Originally posted by Sphota
Culture dictates what is manly and what isn't.

...like i said before - you may let culture dictate your concepts but not everyone does...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Wyn Hawks

 

What are ndn men?

...ndn is shorthand for indigenous (as in american indian) thats been heavily used on all kinds of message boards for more than two decades...

Originally posted by Sphota
As far as culture dictating things, I don't know how many examples I can give in one post.

...who asked you to give examples?... no one...

Originally posted by Sphota
Culture dictates what is manly and what isn't.

...like i said before - you may let culture dictate your concepts but not everyone does...

Wow, why so uptight? I actually really Enjoyed reading her post and found it to be enlightening. I for one am glad she did give examples, She could have given a few more in my opinion as this is what this thread is all about.

Whats with the nitpicking? If you disagree you could try a counter argument (although i dont see that there really is one), but that was just plain and simple immaturity on your behalf. I have read some of your posts on different threads and was quite intrigued as to what you had to say, so if you cant respond to a post in a mature manner i suggest you stop contaminating my thread with the usual ATS ignorance.

I find that Culture does actually dictate all of our concepts and morals and is pre-conditioned into us from a very early age, unless of course your parents decide that they do not wish to instill particular ideals and concepts from their culture into their children. So therefore break away from society and teach them seperate concepts, which can be very enlightening to that child, but depending on the parents, yet again, can be distressing if the child wishes to be part of a society, or culture when they are old enough to make their own choices.

Reply to post by Rockpuck

Why do you assume that xbox and cable tv are to blame? I played a ton of games an watched a ton of tv growing up and still turned out well.

It's today's rotten parents that are contributing to this non-issue.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by Rockpuck

Why do you assume that xbox and cable tv are to blame? I played a ton of games an watched a ton of tv growing up and still turned out well.

It's today's rotten parents that are contributing to this non-issue.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Wyn Hawks

 

What are ndn men?

...ndn is shorthand for indigenous (as in american indian) thats been heavily used on all kinds of message boards for more than two decades...

No need to get snippy. I haven't been discussing American Indians for 20 years on message boards. I genuinely wanted to know. Just like the first time I saw "pwn" and had no clue about it. I thought we weren't supposed to use txtng on here anyway (see, I can get just as nitpicky...so why start?)

Originally posted by Sphota
As far as culture dictating things, I don't know how many examples I can give in one post.

...who asked you to give examples?... no one...

Well, one typically gives examples so that opinion can be less about "What I think..." and more about "Hey, see, I'm not just pulling this from no where...". It's kind of a hallmark of making an argument. Seeing as how you and I are discussing whether or not culture plays a role, I could just say "It does." But then, where would we be?

"Is not"
"Is too"
"Is not"
"Is too"
"You're stupid"
"Cut his mic"

...that's where we'd be, on an opinion news program on Fox or MSNBC...

Originally posted by Sphota
Culture dictates what is manly and what isn't.

...like i said before - you may let culture dictate your concepts but not everyone does...

Sorry pal. We all let culture dictate our concepts. How many people have found foreigners "rude"? Why did you find them rude? Because they talked to close to you? Because they showed up unannounced at your home? Because they didn't bring flowers as a guest? Because they burped after a meal (or didn't)? Because they are always late when you invite them to something?

As humans are cultural beings, there is nothing you nor I can do short of getting raised by wolves to eliminate the cultural bondage that we are born into. You can say it and really mean it and believe it to be true, but I'm afraid you're wrong on this one.

Originally posted by Dionisius
Wow, why so uptight? I actually really Enjoyed reading her post and found it to be enlightening. I for one am glad she did give examples, She could have given a few more in my opinion as this is what this thread is all about.

Just for me to be nitpicky (haha), It's a he. Sphota is an old Sanskrit linguistics term. I just chose the female Indian goddess as an avatar because it was the easiest with my rudimentary graphic skills to overlay a panini press (Panini was also the name of an Indian scholar who worked with the concept of sphota - so I guess it's a pun that only linguistics nerds would get...).

At any rate, I appreciate your comments below:

Whats with the nitpicking? If you disagree you could try a counter argument (although i dont see that there really is one), but that was just plain and simple immaturity on your behalf. I have read some of your posts on different threads and was quite intrigued as to what you had to say, so if you cant respond to a post in a mature manner i suggest you stop contaminating my thread with the usual ATS ignorance.

I, too, found it interesting that I could be in total agreement with him (or her) on another thread, but then be so at odds over here. I guess it's the nature of having people who can't fit into neat little boxes of "right" or "left".

I find that Culture does actually dictate all of our concepts and morals and is pre-conditioned into us from a very early age, unless of course your parents decide that they do not wish to instill particular ideals and concepts from their culture into their children. So therefore break away from society and teach them seperate concepts, which can be very enlightening to that child, but depending on the parents, yet again, can be distressing if the child wishes to be part of a society, or culture when they are old enough to make their own choices.

The funny thing about culture is that it is encoded in language. Even if your parents wanted to totally whisk you away from their culture, it would be almost impossible, short of that movie by M. Night Shyamalan where the people live in a walled compound, to re-structure culture on the basis that the children would still be exposed to the language, being forced to use it to communicate, and being basically forced to encode their thoughts within the framework of the culture (via the language).

When you say "[it] can be distressing if the child wishes to be part of society...when they are old enough..." you are perfectly describing culture shock, which is another glaring example of why culture does dictate how we feel about things. You wouldn't experience a "shock" if you didn't have such engrained, culture-based filtering of everyday, run-of-the-mill concepts.

reply to post by Dionisius


I wanted to just give my 2 cents worth on this subject !! I can keep it simple. The only unit in the entire world that is a threat to those that want to control and destroy the freedoms of people is the Family ! A family that has a Father, Mother, and however many children is an example to those around them that principles and structure matter. Of course I am talking about a healthy funtioning family !! Almost sounds like a thing of the past doesn't it? The point I am making is simple. When you remove the fathers authority and leadership through the Ungodly rules and laws or worldly distractions that men can can be a fool for or be a victim of, you are in most cases fracturing, or breaking the righteous legacy.

One generation plants the seed and the next one gets the shade !!!!

Thx for the thread and sorry if I am a bit off topic..

Originally posted by Dionisius
Wow, why so uptight? I actually really Enjoyed reading her post and found it to be enlightening. I for one am glad she did give examples, She could have given a few more in my opinion as this is what this thread is all about.

...but thats YOU, dear...

...had sphota directed their posts to no one in particular, i wouldnt have responded at all but that wasnt the case... sphota directed two posts to me and they were presumptious, imo - hence my blunt response reposted below for your convenience...

...who asked you to give examples?... no one...

Originally posted by Dionisius
Whats with the nitpicking? If you disagree you could try a counter argument (although i dont see that there really is one),

...thats my choice to make - not yours to dictate...

Originally posted by Dionisius
but that was just plain and simple immaturity on your behalf.

...but you believe that calling me uptight, accusing me of nitpicking, accusing me of contaminating your thread with ignorance, being territorial over something you dont even own (this thread) and trying to dicate how i post is mature behavior?... okay, well, that explains a lot...

...you're making a big deal over nothing...

...believe whatever you want... justify whatever you want, including your personal attack on my character... doesnt bother me a bit... rock on, baby...

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by Dionisius
Wow, why so uptight? I actually really Enjoyed reading her post and found it to be enlightening. I for one am glad she did give examples, She could have given a few more in my opinion as this is what this thread is all about.

...but thats YOU, dear...

...had sphota directed their posts to no one in particular, i wouldnt have responded at all but that wasnt the case... sphota directed two posts to me and they were presumptious, imo - hence my blunt response reposted below for your convenience...

I'm sorry if that's the way it came off, but in reality what I did was this:

Originally posted by Sphota

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by klarkowski67
Real men simply have a penis. Women don't. Everything else is a choice.

...what about men who have lost their penis or have had it rendered useless due to battle injuries or cancer?... are they not real men anymore?... imo, they still are cuz theres a lot more to a man than just his genitals...

I don't think he meant it like that. He was going for the purely biological aspect.

I guess I should have made two posts, but I was only responding to your comment about a "penis". Then I moved on to this:

This is true, culture dictates what we think is manly and what isn't.

Panty hose are not manly, but they were in the 1600s.

Everything that followed was general response to the topic. I actually saw and agreed with your point that you may have lost your penis due to an accident. Or even, not been born with one, but still male hormones, and you could still be a man - though man on what grounds I'm not sure (by that I mean, how much exactly society ties in the sexual act of penetration to manliness - but that's a longer argument that I'm not trying to attack right now).

At any rate, again, I did not mean to be presumptuous, I was only addressing your comment, quickly, to clarify what I believe that poster who you quoted meant, before moving on to the larger debate. Occasionally I will put a line, or some phrase to denote it. I did not mean for you to take it as an unwarranted attack or presumption.


EDIT: I did not actually say I agreed with your comment about loss of a penis. I did actually agree to it though from what you were saying. I just wanted to point out that from a biological beginning, the penis (as well as the testes) is associated with masculinity, whether you lose it or not.

Remember, sarcasm, tone, pitch, gesture, facial expressions, timing and pauses, all play a role in comprehension when conversing with someone. On a site, like ATS, we rely wholly on the written word, which does not allow for complete comprehension of those attributes to human communication. I've often gotten too heated and reactionary from the get-go, but it just comes down to knowing that no offense should be taken sometimes...sometimes it wasn't even intended.