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Difficulty understanding God

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posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by milkyway12
If you were a Christian for 20 years , the Holy spirit would have directed you. You probably were not a Christian.
I have been told that many times. It is a mean trick your god pulled on me by allowing me to live in another country other than my own for over 2 years doing voluntary work with drug addicts in his name, and the whole time I wasn't a christian. I wish he would have let me know at some point so I could have corrected that.


First, that's an honorable thing you did. Even if you've now been led away from belief, I think it's very admirable that you gave of yourself like that. Second, I'm curious where you stand now, are you atheist, agnostic, or a believer but no longer a Christian? I'm just curious, I mean no disrespect.

I have used that exact line on people before (you weren't a REAL Christian) but I don't anymore, because I've run across too many people that truly did believe at one time and now find themselves outside of that belief. I think any believer should seriously consider people such as yourself who fell into and out of belief and seek to understand why this happens.

There's this Christian belief that becoming a Christian changes a person, like a light switch is flipped that can never be turned off again. It may work that way for some people, but when others hear this they get confused and start wondering about their own salvation because they don't feel that "difference". Years ago when I started questioning my faith (mainly due to coming to believe the Bible was not inerrant) I finally backed completely away from the Bible and asked myself if, outside of the Bible, I believed in God. My eventual conclusion was that yes, I believed in Him outside of the Bible. Then I went back to studying the Bible in a different light, what can I reconcile with a perfect God and what can I not reconcile? I won't say that I've got all the answers, but since accepting that I need to follow my heart more than words on paper or from the mouths of men my faith is stronger than it was before. One of the mysteries of life is why some people can follow the same path and come out with totally different beliefs, of even non-belief, I can't explain it but personally I don't think that in the end this will condemn people like most think it will.


edit on 18-8-2011 by SavedOne because: Here and hear do not have the same meaning :-)




posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Friend, after having been a fundi for most of my life, I got out ot it. Thank God. One reason it is difficult to understand the concept of God is because of the way the "church" and the scriptures present Him. I say the scriptures because they were written by men. They must be read with the understanding that the writer promotes his own leanings. They were written a very long time after Christ was crucified. Satan was a player injected by the church; just to keep you on your toes.

"Hell" is a christian hoax. So, don't worry about a concept of a place of eternal torment. It doesn't exist, it is a hoax of the church. If believers believe that Christ died for their sins, for the sins of ALL mankind, then to believe that a place of eternal burning torment is blasphemy. That is saying that the shedding of Christ's blood was all in vane. God WILLED that all mankind will be saved, and they will. Christians have twisted the scriptures to mean whatever they want it to mean. They don't believe nor practice what it really says. In fact, I wonder how many really do know what the scriptures say. Read it for yourself. Study Hebrew and Greek. Get alone. Go to your private prayer area and ask the real God to reveal himself to you. He will. He did for me and he promised that what he does for others, he will do for you. Let me ask you this, there is a scripture that reads : "if you right eye offend you, pluck it out...if your right hand offends you, cut it off".......do you take that scripture literally? How many Christians have you seen with no eyes, no feet and no hands? No, their failure to literally follow Jesus command belies their assertion that virtually all of the Bible teachings are "literal".

Hell was a valley outside of Jerusalem, a big city garbage dump, and for centuries, as long as garbage was thrown there, it kept burning and worms that fed on the garbage never died out!! They kept reproducing. It's a figuratively used concept, just like "plucking" out your eye, or "cutting of" your hand.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


I believe that what your OP is actually questioning is the origin of sin (wrong or evil by some translations).

To answer this, I want you to imagine yourself in the following scenario. I won't go into sources, but most of what is included in the scenario is extensively documented in the scriptures of several major religions. The other caveat is that what I can offer is only a small fragment of the whole subject.

So settle back & get comfortable.

Before anything, there was no physicality, no time no space, no energy and no information, just nothing.

But somehow, you are there. In the darkness.

You probe the depths of the darkness, to its full extent, and there is definitely nothing (but you). The depth of the silence is deafening, the depth of the darkness is blinding, there is nothing beside yourself.

Who are you?

You ponder this, perhaps for aeons, perhaps for only an instant (time itself is immaterial). and you act to create, out of yourself (for there is nothing else). Perhaps it is all in your mind, perhaps it is an alternate, new thing, it doesn't matter. You have created and what you have created is "other".

There is now you and the other and you are creative, a maker. The definition of who you are is there, becoming in the act of doing and being.

So every creation is a clearer definition of you and also pushes out the boundaries of this new "universe" of otherness.

You create divisions of self that interact with each other and these become aspects of you, that can appreciate and now relate to the other aspects. You become a community of self and can self-appreciate.

It also occurs to you that you can create a community of "not self" as well. Autonomous instances, but this implies that you must allow for 'not your will' and 'not your heart'. It is, on one hand, dangerous to these creations, but also ultimately allows for true love and closeness from the other.

So there you have some of the idea.
edit on 18/8/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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To claim that Jesus is The Creator is a paradox; Jesus was a creation/had a beginning and God has no beginning. The Creator and the creations are totally distinct. Christians say that God is a trinity. That, according to them, "the father", "the son", and "the holy spirit" are God. Either they are claiming there are 3 so-called gods (polytheism) or that God has parts. Some christians also say that what they call "the son" is Jesus...well in the bible, in the book of John, chapter 20, verse 17 it says that Jesus said "I am ascending to my father and yours, to my God, and yours".



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
Let us create man in our image? Just because you have a Penis doesnt mean you have to use it.
Yes, but the point is that they have one. There must be a purpose for it or it wouldn't be there.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
Nah, I wouldn't say angels are human, or humans are angels, just similar qualities.
We have similar qualities with chimpanzees, yet we can't reproduce with them. How can angels and humans reproduce? They aren't the same species. Do you know something about reproduction that I don't know?



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by SavedOne
First, that's an honorable thing you did. Even if you've now been led away from belief, I think it's very admirable that you gave of yourself like that. Second, I'm curious where you stand now, are you atheist, agnostic, or a believer but no longer a Christian? I'm just curious, I mean no disrespect.
I sense no disrespect. It is quite understandable why you'd be curious. I am an atheist. Have been for about 3 years now after about a 10 year journey, still journeying at that.

I realized that I didn't have a good enough reason to believe what I believed. I had just as good a reason as any other believer out there in any other belief system, and that isn't good enough, imo.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Everything and everybody God created were created for his pleasure, to glorify him. God created mankind because he desired fellowship. That was why he made Adam in his (actually their) own image. The plurality refers to the triune nature of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He made mankind: body, soul (consciousness), and spirit. He also gave mankind a free will. If God had made mankind so that he/she was 100% obedient all the time, then mankind would not be like God. God is good, and he chooses to be so. Mankind must likewise choose good, or else he/she isn't good. That was God gave mankind a free will. Eve and Adam chose poorly. They sinned. Because of that their spirits died. Their bodies and souls did not die. Their bodies lived on for hundreds of years. In his mercy God created a way for Eve and Adam (and all the rest of future fallen manind) to be redeemed. He sent his only begotten son, Jesus. This will be a long reply and I need to go for now.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by christsdisciple
Everything and everybody God created were created for his pleasure, to glorify him.
Why does he need glorification? Was he not fine before he created everything? Was he sitting around wherever he was thinking, "Hmmm, I need something to glorify me and if they don't, I will torture them forever in fire...."?


Originally posted by christsdisciple
God created mankind because he desired fellowship.
Angels weren't enough for him?



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
I am an atheist. Have been for about 3 years now after about a 10 year journey, still journeying at that.

I realized that I didn't have a good enough reason to believe what I believed. I had just as good a reason as any other believer out there in any other belief system, and that isn't good enough, imo.


Thank you, and I understand your position. Obviously we don't share the same beliefs, but that doesn't mean I can't respect your opinion. And for the record I do not think you're trolling here, you're asking some good, soul-searching questions that any believer should take to heart. If we can't defend our beliefs against these questions then our faith is a house of cards.

Regarding your questions about angels, frankly there's just not a lot of information about the nature of angels in the Bible. They are quite a mystery. Are they male or female, or both? Unknown. Do they have a human form, or are they spirits that can materialize into human form? Also unknown. In some passages when people saw them they clearly knew what they were, but in other cases people saw them and thought they were human (as in Lot's case, the men of the town thought they were human guests and demanded to have sex with them) while in other passages angels were present but invisible. I think people get trapped into thinking that the absence of information in the Bible implies something that it really doesn't. For instance, when angels are described in the Bible they're described as having male characteristics, but that does not mean that female angels do not exist. The Bible never once mentions giraffes, clearly that doesn't prove that they don't exist though. So your questions about why angels have reproductive organs, and how they can reproduce with humans, etc., these are questions that simply cannot be answered because the info is not available. I think I know what you're getting at, but the conflict is with religious teachings rather than the Bible itself. Religious teachings claim that angels have no reproductive organs and even that we won't when we go to heaven, and that angels don't have sex, etc. But those teachings are built off of a passage or two that could easily be interpreted differently. And if one steps outside of canon (to the Book of Enoch for example) then it becomes quite clear that angels did indeed procreate with humans.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by christsdisciple
Everything and everybody God created were created for his pleasure, to glorify him.
Why does he need glorification? Was he not fine before he created everything? Was he sitting around wherever he was thinking, "Hmmm, I need something to glorify me and if they don't, I will torture them forever in fire...."?


Originally posted by christsdisciple
God created mankind because he desired fellowship.
Angels weren't enough for him?


The question of WHY this was done, is a long and complicated tract. The OP questions good and evil, when it is boiled down.
The answer to this is...FREE WILL.
A loving God gives all opportunity, regardless of the outcome (yes, the outcome is known), but, suffice to say, children are given free rein to gain by experience the pathway back to the Source. FREE WILL is a part of the mechanical workings of this scenario. We are given rules. All cosmologies contain rules of sorts. Many are so similar as to be, the same...or appearing to emanate from the same source...this is not a coincidence!
Most, if not all, of these rules challenge the concept of FREE WILL.
God does not create evil, so much as, provide the conditions through which it can be manifested. One 'condition' is FREE WILL. Manifestation (creation on a physical plane) is entirely up to Us children, according to the precept of FREE WILL.
All created beings, with the flame of the source, have FREE WILL...hence the battles, challenges, wars, evil...on this plane, and on all planes of existence. Angels are not automatons! They have personalities! Personality requires differentiation, and therefore (on a mundane level) requires FREE WILL.
Angels, like men/women are beholden to this FREE WILL, and like men/women, at some points in cosmological history have excercised this FREE WILL; choosing to deem themselves a God above the Source which created them...vanity! The dispute in heaven which is so frequently referred to that sparks so much final battle debate, is a simple case of vanity and demotion, by the Source. The reason it is so pertinent, is because, we are also beholden to this vanity (which is a product of the mechanism of FREE WILL).
Understand that you are a flame, and NOT the fire, and you will be heading in the right direction. Following rules which have been set, delivered...is a call to recognise the operation of the mechanics of the way this all happens.
If you dont recognise it...you are allowed the gift of FREE WILL to reject the rule (and fumble your way through this drama), or accept the rule, and coast on in the direction you are meant to go (your path).
Akushla



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by christsdisciple
Everything and everybody God created were created for his pleasure, to glorify him. God created mankind because he desired fellowship.


Being a parent I can tell you that I was not driven to have children for my pleasure or to give myself glory. I doubt God created us for those reasons either, because if He did then He must be seriously disappointed in the results considering how little glory we give Him. I wanted to have children to bring something into the world that wasn't there before, and it's been very fulfilling watching them grow in ways I didn't expect in the least. I think He brought us into existence for us, not for Him. Life is His gift to us. He didn't need us, but just like I didn't "need" my kids they bring fulfillment to me that would not have been there otherwise.



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
Nah, I wouldn't say angels are human, or humans are angels, just similar qualities.
We have similar qualities with chimpanzees, yet we can't reproduce with them. How can angels and humans reproduce? They aren't the same species. Do you know something about reproduction that I don't know?


My reaction was the same, more questions. According to the book, it was possible. Unless I have sex with an angel and have a kid, we'll never know :p



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by akushla99
The question of WHY this was done, is a long and complicated tract. The OP questions good and evil, when it is boiled down.
The answer to this is...FREE WILL.
Is it free will if we are predestined, as it states in the bible? Romans 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Next, will "free will" exist in heaven? Will people still have a chance to disobey, or will that choice be taken from them? The answer I usually hear to this question is that people in heaven will not have the desire to do wrong. How do they know this? Satan was in heaven when he did wrong...as well as 1/3 of the angels. Why couldn't humans do the same? They did wrong in the garden when all was perfect. How does this god know that this plan will work when so many have failed in the past?



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
My reaction was the same, more questions. According to the book, it was possible. Unless I have sex with an angel and have a kid, we'll never know :p
Do you agree then that it makes no sense whatsoever for angels to have sexual reproductive organs if they can't use them on each other? And how strange it is that if they do have sexual reproductive organs that they are compatible with humans? Why would god allow this in his creation?



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by akushla99
The question of WHY this was done, is a long and complicated tract. The OP questions good and evil, when it is boiled down.
The answer to this is...FREE WILL.
Is it free will if we are predestined, as it states in the bible? Romans 8:29-30 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Next, will "free will" exist in heaven? Will people still have a chance to disobey, or will that choice be taken from them? The answer I usually hear to this question is that people in heaven will not have the desire to do wrong. How do they know this? Satan was in heaven when he did wrong...as well as 1/3 of the angels. Why couldn't humans do the same? They did wrong in the garden when all was perfect. How does this god know that this plan will work when so many have failed in the past?


Predestination does not preclude FREE WILL!
For instance, you are at point A, you need to get to point B. Destination (destiny is point B), what you do, in between is dependant on where you choose to put your attention.
The bible is not the be all and end all of information...if all christians followed the 'word', none would eat meat! (thou shalt not kill - even by proxy!)
FREE WILL is a 'condition' of the mechanism, on these planes...a rule, if you like...a granted gift...having given the gift, the consequences of the grant are left to play themselves out (according to the precept of this FREE WILL).
There would be absolutely no, i repeat, NO need for FREE WILL in a universe, existence, scenario, in which every single movement, action...whatever...was determined as if by automation...there would be no need to produce a situation where every situation was controlled to the Nth degree...this is the definition of some sort of farcical, cruel, joke...a claim often visited upon fundamental believers who confuse the will of God with the will of man. God does not will evil...he/she created the conditions under which the possibility for it to occur are present, because we, and all created beings were given the gift of FREE WILL! Whether this happens or not is up to beings with the power to excercise said FREE WILL.
Obviously, (to my way understanding), when the CEO sent his/her emissaries/managerial staff to oversee this corner of the universe, they were not IN heaven...they were in a locum of creation...one or more of these angels/managerial staff succumbed to false pride, wanting to take the plan in another direction...hence, the insurrection, and subsequent demotion!
The rest, as they say, is history!
Akushla



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 

Just curious, do you believe that a god created us, or maybe it was an advanced race of beings who were not "gods" but labeled as such by ancient humans?
If you believe it was a god, or THE god, do you believe it was the god of the bible? If so, why?

If you believe we were created, or helped along, by advanced beings, where are they now?
edit on 19-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by akushla99
 

Just curious, do you believe that a god created us, or maybe it was an advanced race of beings who were not "gods" but labeled as such by ancient humans?


Either way! Who created the 'beings' who you advance as the possible creators of Us?
Same question as, Big Bang, or Creation...same thing, the other way around!

The question contains the answer!
Akushla



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by akushla99
 

Just curious, do you believe that a god created us, or maybe it was an advanced race of beings who were not "gods" but labeled as such by ancient humans?
If you believe it was a god, or THE god, do you believe it was the god of the bible? If so, why?

If you believe we were created, or helped along, by advanced beings, where are they now?
edit on 19-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)


Where, indeed?
Your question assumes a location. Can you locate your mind?
Akushla



posted on Aug, 19 2011 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by akushla99
 

Just curious, do you believe that a god created us, or maybe it was an advanced race of beings who were not "gods" but labeled as such by ancient humans?
If you believe it was a god, or THE god, do you believe it was the god of the bible? If so, why?

If you believe we were created, or helped along, by advanced beings, where are they now?
edit on 19-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)


The bible contains many 'beings' which have been subsequently given the title of God/god. Stick to the fundamentals of the nature of GOD and you will be able to tell the difference, and scales will fall from your eyes.
Confusion is self perpetuating. The human condition attempts to make things more complicated than they really are.
Akushla



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