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Difficulty understanding God

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posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:20 AM
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I would love perspectives of well-read or highly enlightened individuals, but please, mature responses only. Stagnant responses: "There is no God. End of discussion." "God just made it that way. End of thinking." need not mentions.

I am having some difficulty with the concept of God. This is not a bashing thread. Here we go: God created everything and it was good, except the strange parts in the Old Testament where there is war in Heaven, and Satan is an angel that wanted to be God and jealousy existed. So we kick Satan out of heaven and his followers. We've got evil. Fallen angels and demons. Mmm'kay.

But God made Satan (Lucifer, Morning Star, whatever). He was kicked out of heaven to Earth, which he is now "the prince of this world," in which after Judgement Day, God throws Satan and his minions into the fires of Hell as punishment. Hell is a place created for punishment, it is not where the Devil currently dwells or rules like a king. But God created this place of punishment for Satan. God created Hell. And while it's hard to grasp what hell is, if it's worse than anything the devil can create (a corrupt planet Earth) wouldn't that make God more evil than the devil?

And salvation. God created this big universe, and we may not be the only lifeforms here on Earth. Angels are lifeforms that don't live on earth. So is that to say that before the Devil, NO SOUL suffered the HORRIBLE damnation of hell because everyone got to be/go to Heaven and that after the devil is thrown into hell, all the other lifeforms in the Universe that God created are lucky because they weren't tempted by the Devil on Earth and get to go to heaven, too? It's kinda like a before and after. The devil exists, and then is punished. Compared to time, it's just a short time for him to corrupt living creatures and try to take them with him to the "bad place" that seems like a bunch of unlucky people will be subjected to because they were born at the wrong time. I'm trying to figure out how this is fair, or just, or loving...
edit on 18-8-2011 by UndesirableNo1 because: (no reason given)


Also...Why is God waiting to punish Satan for his transgression after he takes humanity with him? Why not have punished Satan then and there in Heaven? Why wait to punish Satan after he takes away the creatures you created in your image?
edit on 18-8-2011 by UndesirableNo1 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Sounds like you have difficulty understand Hell, rather than God. And inb4 people one-line bashing Christians without even reading the thread.

But, I'm having difficulty understanding your question, to be honest. Though, have you heard of Hades? Some believe it to be Hell, but the way I understand it, it was more like what the Catholics believe in - Purgatory. Two compartments, one for the good, or righteous, and one for the evil people. It was indeed a real place, that existed (past tense) before Jesus came along. When Jesus died, those three days he was in Hades, preaching to all the souls there (which were all the souls who had died before Christ), so that they all had an equal opportunity to hear the Son of God speak. It still exists, but is empty.

From my understanding of your question, it sounds like you're wondering where the People went, during those times, and since it wasn't Heaven (because no one was perfect), and since it wasn't Hell (because God wanted to give everyone the same opportunity, he wouldn't send them straight to Hell without a chance at salvation), the only place left is Hades.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Well you are trying to understand the logic of a Supreme Being while you are no where near that level. To think that God has given you the complete history of heaven and hell and explains how exactly his reasoning works in a few chapters in the Bible is ridiculous.

He may have done all these things on purpose for the testing of humanity to see who is worthy to enter heaven or it may be that there is more going on behind the scenes than God has told us. Perhaps the Devil is stronger than we are led to believe and it's an actual battle for our souls.

This is what is called faith. You are not meant to have a complete understanding of how God works but only to believe in what he says to do. You will literally drive yourself crazy if you try to analyze everything about God and you will never find answers.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Sounds like you have difficulty understand Hell, rather than God. And inb4 people one-line bashing Christians without even reading the thread.

But, I'm having difficulty understanding your question, to be honest. Though, have you heard of Hades? Some believe it to be Hell, but the way I understand it, it was more like what the Catholics believe in - Purgatory. Two compartments, one for the good, or righteous, and one for the evil people. It was indeed a real place, that existed (past tense) before Jesus came along. When Jesus died, those three days he was in Hades, preaching to all the souls there (which were all the souls who had died before Christ), so that they all had an equal opportunity to hear the Son of God speak. It still exists, but is empty.

From my understanding of your question, it sounds like you're wondering where the People went, during those times, and since it wasn't Heaven (because no one was perfect), and since it wasn't Hell (because God wanted to give everyone the same opportunity, he wouldn't send them straight to Hell without a chance at salvation), the only place left is Hades.


The Hebrews called it Sheole, the Greeks called it Hades. I have read the book of Enoch, the entire Bible, and am reading the Koran. Hell is a place of punishment in which the Devil and his minions will be thrown into. All souls after death await Judgement day, according to the Bible. What I am having a hard time understanding: After God/Jesus conquer evil, and the devil and his minions are thrown into the lake of fire, and every tear is wiped from the eyes of the righteous...(you following me so far?) Life will continue, but no one will be thrown into Hell, and before the Devil got jealous, everything was perfect, and no one got thrown into Hell. So why is there an eternity of the worst suffering imaginable open for just a transient amount of unfortunate human beings that were born on the Earth when the devil was allowed ownership over it? Clearly before satan was evil, he was a highly valued angel. Is that to say there was no evil before then? And God created a place more evil to punish an evil being?



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Well you are trying to understand the logic of a Supreme Being while you are no where near that level. To think that God has given you the complete history of heaven and hell and explains how exactly his reasoning works in a few chapters in the Bible is ridiculous.

He may have done all these things on purpose for the testing of humanity to see who is worthy to enter heaven or it may be that there is more going on behind the scenes than God has told us. Perhaps the Devil is stronger than we are led to believe and it's an actual battle for our souls.

This is what is called faith. You are not meant to have a complete understanding of how God works but only to believe in what he says to do. You will literally drive yourself crazy if you try to analyze everything about God and you will never find answers.



"That's just the way it is," is exactly the stagnant response I was hoping to avoid. That doesn't help.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:49 AM
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This is one reason why I have moved to Scientism as a religion. For me to know god is to understand life and the strong foundation of reason, debate, research and questions that science has give me faith that as a race we can continue to improve and continue to build a deeper understanding of just what exactly god is along the way.

I see many people use god to explain everything they do not know. I understand god as the universe or life and everything it contains.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:53 AM
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congrats you found the loop hole. i was at you stage just before i became an atheist.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

i know i sound like a troll but good luck
edit on 18-8-2011 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)


btw some will tell you that it is not possible to understand god but will shove a bible down your throat
edit on 18-8-2011 by vjr1113 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Well there is no answer to what you are asking.

Those are what are condidered unanswerable questions.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:02 AM
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Most of our information/tradition on what Hell is comes from is not even in the Bible--it's from Dante's Inferno. The Bible explains very little about the place, and doesn't make a big deal of it other than you shouldn't do things to put yourself there.

But look into CS Lewis' vision of hell. He puts it in his theological treasties like Surprised by Joy, and he puts it into his fictional works, like the last book in the Narnia series. Simply, it's a thought that we all go to the same place, but since we refuse to believe, we can never see the heavenly glory around us, so we stick our own selves in Hell.

Some Christians believe that if you are "cast into hell' that you cease to exist--jsut like Athiest believe we all do when we die.

Look at it from another perspective: the whole of the Bible is about having a very personal relationship with God ~ that's what He is seeking from humanity. If you deny God to your dying breath a chance for a relationship, why would you give him one after you are dead? Why would God want your attitude problem in His presence? He's changing the world back to perfection, and he needs those in a relationship to be mature capable of handling the responsibility of perfection beings, and you just want to everyone who has made no comitment to radical change of self-perceptions to be in this happy love fuzz-ball? These interlopers would revolt, jsut like they do now--whether or not they were forced to admit that God is God. They can't come to heaven because they won't change themselves to work with/for God--never because God doesn't want them.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:03 AM
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I am having some difficulty with the concept of God. This is not a bashing thread. Here we go: God created everything and it was good, except the strange parts in the Old Testament where there is war in Heaven, and Satan is an angel that wanted to be God and jealousy existed. So we kick Satan out of heaven and his followers. We've got evil. Fallen angels and demons.

God created things as good, but the fall of man corrupted the entire creation. All things were created at about the same time, a week roughly. They were created aged. Man was already grown, as was woman, and trees used for food, etc. Good is obedience to commandments, bad is disobedience to commandments. Adam and Eve were created good, but became bad when they disobeyed. The disobedience was as a result of a lie intended for good as an act of love from Adam to Eve to protect her, but that lie opened an opportunity for Satan to enter and to deceive Eve. Satan is an instrument of God, used to purify man. If a man is in need of it, God will turn him over to "the buffetings of Satan" to act as a "refiner's fire" to correct the wayward child of God. This can happen to a person, or to a nation, and is an act of Love for man.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by vjr1113
 


I understand...and I'm afraid I'll suffer the same hostility because I feel God in my heart, and believe in Him, I'm just questioning things. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, but in Church I found hostility, not answers.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Know that feeling, but not all churches are like that. Where there has to be seperation, we do it, but it's not supposed to be out of hostility.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by kro32
reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


Well there is no answer to what you are asking.

Those are what are condidered unanswerable questions.


You can put that as an answer.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:09 AM
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If God is real and you believe in him and ask him for guidance I wouldn't think you would have to worry about it. He will put you where he wants you.

That's kind of how it works once your a true Christian.

I asked for guidance and he sent me to ATS..go figure.
edit on 18-8-2011 by kro32 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
reply to post by vjr1113
 


I understand...and I'm afraid I'll suffer the same hostility because I feel God in my heart, and believe in Him, I'm just questioning things. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, but in Church I found hostility, not answers.


yep same here. just go with what feels good. believe in what brings you comfort and never be afraid.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by CynicalDrivel
 


I haven't read CS Lewis, just the Biblical texts of Hell. Hell is described as the "second death," but does not imply you cease existing. It's an afterlife of torment. You brought up a good point, not wanting those souls in Heaven because they would revolt as Satan did...



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:12 AM
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Reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


The angels were created before mankind. The devil wanted to have equal power with that of God. He was thrown down to earth. When the devil is thrown into the pit, so is all sin and evil. There will be no more created humans, so there is no possibilty of mankind not experiencing bad per se.

God created all, so why does he not have the say in which he creates.

Man is sent to Earth to go through trials and what not to prove his love for God.


 
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posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:13 AM
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reply to post by kro32
 


But our faith is also tested through trials of adversity. Be careful using the word, "true Christian." Only Christ got it right.



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:13 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Aug, 18 2011 @ 01:16 AM
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Reply to post by UndesirableNo1
 


The first death is a physical death, what are you after you die. A soul right. The second death is the killing of the soul. No where in the bible does it state its eternal for man. Only the beast and the false prophet.

It states everywhere, have eternal life or perish.


 
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