Originally posted by Heartisblack
It's it the truth OP, Religion is control and the Christians are unwilling to believe or listen because they have unwavering faith to a man they haven't seen. I'll believe in the doctor from doctor who, quicker then I could believe in god. I might not know what he looks like but I'll believe he's out there quicker than the god theory.

Aliens are easier to believe in than god. You know something has got to be in space, it would be surprising if we where alone with each star harbouring millions upon millions of galaxies.
If aliens were to land, it would dissipate all this Religious god nonsense. I get so tired of telling people god doesn't exist. If I got paid for this I'd be wealthy.

God isn't real and the Christians will know once they get into "heaven"
I believe that if you believe something so hard, you can manifest it. I believe that they manifest their "Ideals" of heaven but god doesn't exist. Kind of like The Lovely Bones book, Susie Salmon was in "Her Idea of Heaven"
But not "Heaven" heaven is a peace of mind once you die.

Earth is evil. Earth is hell.

edit on 17-8-2011 by Heartisblack because: (no reason given)

I think Christians are unwilling to listen because of fear, not all of course but some. Once you have been programmed to believe when you leave this human form you will be sent to the most wonderful place you can imagine. Its a scary thought to think it may not exist. For example my wife will not even talk to me about anything regarding religion anymore. She just doesn't want to hear it. Shes afraid I may be right. She doesn't want to hear anything that could shake her beliefs. That is fine if thats how she feels, I just couldn't go through life without knowing why I was programmed to believe the Bible from the time I was born. My parents had me baptized when I was only 8 years old before I really understood why I was doing it.

I'm not saying I don't believe in God because I do, just not in a religion. There is a big difference between the two. Once you can get past the fear the Bible places in our hearts you can truly start to worship God the way we were meant to.

This is just one mans opinion, to each his/her own.

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Try actually reading reponses first before running your big mouth off!

oh, johhny not good......
just kidding ok sorry about that ya

Followers of Christian churches often randomly approach me on the street some are extremely nice and im always happy to met them. Others are always focused on telling me Christ die for my sins, which I respond by asking whether their belief that Jesus Christ the son of god was killed for my sins is the same as my belief that Jesus of Nazareth was killed for freeing people from sin.

Whatever answer I receive gives me insight into the true motivation in approaching me because if someone one is compelled by simple willful blindness from following influence of others. Or if their intention is to actually more alpha male driven reason behind actions through attempting to dominate me into the notion of guilt and eternal damnation as well as the active belittling of self esteem which will never work because my suffering is cause by their ignorance that is best defeated ironically by what Jesus called “turning the other cheek”, but I prefer to term as “Killing with kindness”

That in the instance of no or little mal-intention done by making people elaborate, then asking reasonable questions that force them to think about interrupt their understanding of reality, Which can causes them to feel too uncomfortable and go away solving my problem or turns their mind off auto pilot hopefully solving theirs.

Often following this up by asking whether my idea of Jesus simply being a man or better still that things are all of god just the same as him makes me a stronger person than those who hold the belief that Jesus was gods only begotten son, because weakens people by leaving with feelings of inadequacy, furthering a sense of powerlessness, thus more easily allowing the weaker to be manipulated/controlled to the will of others.

Or if dealing with the power tripping type I avoid going in directly confront them head on a strong willed person normally would, which can lead to a win, (god forbid) a lose or even worse a tie, Choosing instead to use the “art of war” approach by politely asking why like grown-up child and draw them out into a fight on battle field of my liking.

Asking things like what is more important that Jesus died for my sins or his teaching to Christianity? Which is a loaded question because it so open ended if they choose one over the other any argument they give will be easily made to look foolish. Forcing anyone who doesn't want to seem semi-retarded to choose both as being the best answer
Allowing me the opportunity to then quote some scripture like

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Give, and it shall be given unto you: good measure, pressed down and shaken together and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete, therewith it shall be measured to you again."And He spoke a parable unto them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch? [Luke 6:38-39] And saying they as a true Christian have no right to judge me whatsoever

He who has knowledge of the truth is a free man, but the free man does not sin, for "He who sins is the slave of sin" [John 8:34]. Because if you understand the knowledge or truth then are free from the enslavement of sin

Ending the conversation base on their reaction to all this BS
1) If the talk about god ask "Can a deity create a rock so heavy that even the deity itself cannot lift it? If so, then the rock is now unliftable, limiting the deity's power. But if not, then the deity is still not omnipotent because it cannot create that rock."

2) If Angry tell them to please have better day and walk away nothing will piss them off more

3) If wrathful and outright mean let them degrade themselves to lowest levels of the play ground name calling you can simple what would Jesus statement are good to start but if they persist I tell them to please seek the help of exorcist(s) cause I can see their that demon must be possessing them hasn’t been taking its medication and needs help.

4) If they are just plain confused then leave them with something like these 2 statements
a. One day the King decided that he would force all his subjects to tell the truth. A gallows was erected in front of the city gates. A herald announced, "Whoever would enter the city must first answer the truth to a question which will be put to him." Nasrudin was first in line. The captain of the guard asked him, "Where are you going? Tell the truth -- the alternative is death by hanging." "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows." "I don't believe you." "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" "But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."

b. “Nevertheless, the argument indicates this, if we would be happy, to be the path along which we should proceed. With a view to concealment we will establish secret brotherhoods and political clubs. And there are professors of rhetoric who teach the art of persuading courts and assemblies; and so, partly by persuasion and partly by force, I shall make unlawful gains and not be punished. Still I hear a voice saying that the gods cannot be deceived, neither can they be compelled. But what if there are no gods? or, suppose them to have no care of human things --why in either case should we mind about concealment? And even if there are gods, and they do care about us, yet we know of them only from tradition and the genealogies of the poets; and these are the very persons who say that they may be influenced and turned by ‘sacrifices and soothing entreaties and by offerings.’ Let us be consistent then, and believe both or neither. If the poets speak truly, why then we had better be unjust, and offer of the fruits of injustice; for if we are just, although we may escape the vengeance of heaven, we shall lose the gains of injustice; but, if we are unjust, we shall keep the gains, and by our sinning and praying, and praying and sinning, the gods will be propitiated, and we shall not be punished.” -Plato, The Republic, Book II


And remember I would like you to fight those that confront you with respect and reason to rob them of the fuel of hell, But God gave you free will, so do what you choose chumps.

Originally posted by Strictsum

Originally posted by Heartisblack
It's it the truth OP, Religion is control and the Christians are unwilling to believe or listen because they have unwavering faith to a man they haven't seen. I'll believe in the doctor from doctor who, quicker then I could believe in god. I might not know what he looks like but I'll believe he's out there quicker than the god theory.

Aliens are easier to believe in than god. You know something has got to be in space, it would be surprising if we where alone with each star harbouring millions upon millions of galaxies.
If aliens were to land, it would dissipate all this Religious god nonsense. I get so tired of telling people god doesn't exist. If I got paid for this I'd be wealthy.

God isn't real and the Christians will know once they get into "heaven"
I believe that if you believe something so hard, you can manifest it. I believe that they manifest their "Ideals" of heaven but god doesn't exist. Kind of like The Lovely Bones book, Susie Salmon was in "Her Idea of Heaven"
But not "Heaven" heaven is a peace of mind once you die.

Earth is evil. Earth is hell.

edit on 17-8-2011 by Heartisblack because: (no reason given)

I think Christians are unwilling to listen because of fear, not all of course but some. Once you have been programmed to believe

Friend;

This is where I feel that TPTB have a truly great system that expands beyond religion, and into all aspects of our lives...If we so chose to let it.

Great point!

Regards and Nameste,

-Chung

BirdOfIllOmen, another thing I've wondered is this. If Satan does indeed represent enlightenment, wisdom and knowledge, then why do Masons seem to promote this through music videos with masonic and satanic themes. If the NWO wants to turn the world into a slave plantation of sorts, promoting illumination would be the opposite of their goals. Unless my assumption is wrong. They are not promoting it. They are simply trying to rub it into the faces of the profane, the fact that they are enlightened with knowledge and we are not.

Secondly, which religions are simply created as means of social control?
Christianity - Almost certain
Islam - Guaranteed. It was a creation by the Vatican.
Judaism - Unknown
New Age - Promotes "positive thinking" to solve all problems. Basically the same as no thinking at all. Definite form of social control
Buddhism - Originally not, but infiltrated in recent times
Scientology - Yes
etc., etc.

While the worshipping is obviously suspicious, what are your thoughts on the stories of the creation of man? Do they have any basis? I think that there are certain elements of truth in the Bible regarding mankind's history, but it has been interlaced with various means of social control such as God worship.

Christianity and most all religions were created by the elite to instill fear and make those below them subservient. The amount of lies and twists to the truth have seriously stunted humanity. Religion is one of the biggest problems we're facing, and of course the gov't and those in power have a hand in it. If one was to really read between the lines and look at passages logically, they'd see that everything is just backwards. Best example I can think of is the story of Abraham, when god wants him to sacrifice his son. What kind of god demands that? And what kind of sicko blindly follows through? Because of faith? "Satan" tries to stop him. Wow he must be so evil to try and stop a father from killing a child. Then of course at the end god says it was only a test. A test huh? Yes, let's see how obedient and irrational these people are. That's the foundation block to mainstream religion right there. Try and reasonably argue that to a christian and they'll just support it and say god was testing or w.e nonsense. I don't think it's too hard to see that this is the exact vision religion and the gov't, the elite want for us people to have. To just blindly follow orders out of faith and belief, not to question regardless.
The other thing that is amazing, is that the elite are so good at their job of manipulating, lying, and diverting the people, that you've got half of those out there who are looking for truth and are sick of the way things are, fighting against the very ideals that are there to set them free. What I mean by that is you know most people refer to the elite as the "Illuminati", but really these are two very different groups, and the Illuminati, if one is to truly research them and get past all the 'disinfo', is actually fighting against the wealthy elite and the religions that poison the world. Their beliefs and writings are very similar to what people have been talking about in this thread which is why I'm bringing it up. It's not the Illuminati in control, its the Old world order, the same people who've had control, and will do anything to not let go.

Originally posted by BobAthome

Originally posted by zroth

Jesus taught 'the way' and asked not to be made an idol himself.

The same Romans and pharisees that traded him for a murder run the empire today.

WRONG
"Jesus taught 'the way' and asked not to be made an idol himself."

he asked that they not reveal who he was,,
and commanded the
same of demons,,
as well,,
so
your point?
OH and in case you haven't heard,,
it's ok too say who he is now,

I hate to split hairs...

“It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” - Matthew 4:10
“Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9.

Originally posted by ChungTsuU

Originally posted by zroth

Jesus taught 'the way' and asked not to be made an idol himself.

The same Romans and pharisees that traded him for a murder run the empire today.

Yeshuah (Aramaic for Jusus) taught "THE WAY"...

THE WAY equals THE TAO...just a few thousand years before...THE TAO equals THE WAY, crazy huh...

Please research it then get back to me.

P.S.
Raised a devoutly LUTHERAN...just have always questioned.

Regards and Nameste,

-Chung

Too funny. I almost used this exact comparison. Yeah, there is no doubt for me. All rivers return to the source.

cheers

Hi folks,

This is an extremely long thread for sure.

I like the things that get brought up in discussion here.

I believe in the bible for different reasons than a lot of people - but perhaps that will come out in discussion - since there is so-o-o much to say.

Control is an *issue*, to say the least.

Whether you believe in one thing or another - *control* is the issue.

Take the modern world we live in - we know that gasoline will catch fire - so we put this in an engine and the engine through pistons etc. turns the wheels. We know this because of reason. If we all disagreed (which we definitely can) about these things, we could conceive of chaos. Chaos definitely ruins control. Imagine a car engine built with the fire in the driver's seat instead of the engine. Where is that car going? Certainly it is not under the control of the driver?

Reason is but the beginning of the logic necessary to put things together that work. It is also just the beginning of the need for relating to other human beings. We could all invest in the cave people days, when each man did his/her own thing and we'd have chaos.

Suppose we avoid chaos, by agreeing to rules - then whose rules are you to work by? You cannot work by anyone else's rules because of fear of being controlled. One could avoid fear by not submitting to rules and simply doing whatever one should please - this is the meaning of *real* freedom.

Christ simply put things this way: Love your neighbour as yourself. And love your lord God with all your heart might and soul. Now, God according to a passage in John is Love. It is not to be confused with a material God. These are but the beginning of the roots of understanding other people in a group - if we are not to be bothered by group behaviour - why bother with the issue of why are people like that? We can all live like animals - you are free to do so - or are you?

Imagine a physical God - what is this infinite being's wants of human beings? Would his/her wants not be infinitely large? Does God really hate Esau? Did he not create him? Scripture would only be an attempt to explain the infinite to the finite. That is impossible.

Rather, we are as gods, in that we have been given this planet to live on with reasonable abilities to understand reality through reason and our senses. The animals through a combination of genetic evolution and reasoning (birds build nests - this wasn't something we argue that they are born pre-programmed with, or their ability to fly is something they apparently have to practice), manage to survive (or are they managing?). Yet, here we are intelligent beings and our economy is flat because of something that is outside of human power.

No one can come up with 100% of anything with reason - yet you look around you and aren't afraid to breathe or walk around. What human beings have been given is enough - yet here we are and we cannot decide what enough is... So our world is condemned.

Take the existence of God in and of itself - it cannot be proven, neither can it be disproven. Intelligent design is apparent through human intelligence - the ability to reason. Yet, if you argue that things are simply random - you have nothing to stand on - your argument is random too.

More to come...

I thought so for the longest time. I thought it was started by zionists as a way to destroy European culture. God called me last month and now I see things in a completely different light. Zionism is of Satan as is everything else. Christianity (true Christians who follow in Jesus's footspets) is the only source of good. Just like in every war there is only 2 sides fighting. There really are no 3rd independent parties.

I realize that much of what I wrote might seem a little open-ended.

I am arguing in favour of leadership.

There are two types of leadership that the world discusses (IMHO): the type that indicates technical proficiency in a particular field of endeavour and the type that indicates that one helps plan the work of a group of people.

One doesn't necessarily imply the other.

I am in favour of leadership that helps plan the work of a group of people.

This doesn't mean that you should have a king/prophet/president. The system is created by the people who live in it and build it as well as destroy it. The nomenclature is a means to help identify one's role - but is by no means a definitive term of what that role is.

If there isn't a means of co-ordinating the efforts of people in creating complex systems - then the systems will fall apart. While much control is handed out to various parts of a system - nevertheless, there has to be some co-ordination between the different parts in order for the system to work.

What I am implying is that a system isn't simply the work of one individual (complex systems) - it is the collective responsibility of those that make the system up.

If you remove their collective responsibility - then the system will fall apart. The question remains "whose" guidance do we take? Preferably you would hand control to people who are honest, logical, have experience in the area - and has the ability to get the collective will on board for issues that are of collective interest.

An issue of collective interest for instance is global warming. Or take the use of water etc....

Trust is necessary for such a person to help plan things for others. If he/she can prove that he/she has the collective interest at heart - then they are more likely to be elected. (in systems that elect such leaders). In a large scale system such as the one we live in - it is very hard for each individual to decipher whether the leaders (eg: Obamas) are indeed genuine. So, we are prey to ad campaigns etc.

The bible has two parts (I've studied it for a long time now). There are parts which we can generally understand and easily apply - and then there are the parts which we can't understand (it is written in good language - it's application isn't understood - for eg the prophecies - they are subject to type and a particular time of execution and so have multiple potential interpretations).

Some of the parts that are easy to understand form the basis of good leadership principles: "Love your neighbour as yourself". Do not steal etc....

The bible contains a lot of wisdom is what people argue => What is wisdom? A body of knowledge that amounts to good advice in a particular field or subject is wisdom. For instance, if you have a potted plant at home - if you wish to keep it alive, it is generally good advice to water the plant from time to time. This is a wise thing to do - but you won't find this wisdom in the bible.

The bible isn't a book that contains all the wisdom in the world - it is a book that contains wisdom as it pertains to leadership and proper stewardship of people's lives vis-a-vis the bigger picture. The prophets were leaders and the descriptions of their endeavours are related to the administering of the Isrealites' lives.

The kings were also leaders, but unlike the prophets, they took a lot of the choicest wealth from the people in exchange for their governance. If they chose to behave badly with the people's wealth and unfairly distributed the wealth - then chaos and destruction set in. If they chose to share the wealth fairly, then people were able to live and the country grew more populous and richer in general.

This is no less true of those times, than it is of today. The concept "God is love" is the basis of the strongest organisations and countries - the endeavour to understand the others in the world - but not only to understand the others - but to try and ascertain the "truth". There is another thread on the milk in the green glass that tries to discuss "truth".

It is my humble opinion that we are playing a monopoly game with respect to money.... but that is another discussion.

Cool thread I've been saying this for quite some time now but all religions have been created by control freaks who probably come from Egypt, the first religion was hinduism (8000 years ago) then zorostrianism 6000 years ago (which is now rebranded as islam) then the christian and jewish religions were thought up 4000 years ago,
To believe in a god is purely to believe the word of another human being nothing else.
We all know we are divided language countries and religion then they divide us by class lower middle upper

Now there are two sets of these control freaks one side is the church and whoever used to control them (i still dont know but they are based in the vatican),
the other side originated from Khazar in Russia and the main family are the rothschilds who have interbred with the royal families why do you think evelyn rothschild is the queens consul and victor rothschild was maggie thatchers consul,

The rothschilds have been so good at their deviosity that they have managed to brainwash even the illuminati who worship satan (which is derived from saturn nothing more)

I might add to all of my comments.

I still personally believe the bible, and what it says quite literally to a great extent.

The top 25-50 earners in this world are really making it impossible for the world to continue on it's merry way. This is why all of the countries that rely on fractional reserve banking, and large scale manufacturing, which mops up considerable funds, are all going to lose 10 ways to hell all of their ability to stay financially viable. (Market size is inversely proportional to monopolization)

It is akin to the theory "wilful blindness" - (summarized: A desert receives rainfall and gets evenly watered. Over time streams form and they join to form tributaries and rivers that follow the path of least resistance to the ocean. If it now rains, the water is easily drained and the desert remains dry (eg:Kalaharan desert). If you analogize the rain with money, you now have human created monetary systems and how they work).

So, people who end up falling out of the financial system (due to inability to find work), *may* find an alternative "system" to live and work within. The bible IMHO describes this as the first death. The alternative system essentially replaces the current global system where in the current system - any endeavour to chase after money is justified if it generates a profit: For instance, money doesn't dictate environmental protection, so the lowest common denominator country dictates the policy for countries that wish to keep working - but that is going to get worse over time.

Well, people who continue to stay with a non-working monetary system, are going to find their lives tougher and tougher, and they may sing and dance until the day the system is too far gone and inhuman.

This is what I believe the scriptures to be telling us.

As for Jesus - while there is a statement that says "Who can overcome the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" - Some take this to be equivalent to saying that "anyone named Jesus who arrives is the son of God" - not the case, nor is a "Mr. Jesus" arriving in the way that people are looking for (IMHO) - "Many will come in my name saying 'I am he'" - Mark 21:8.