Blood On My Shirt - Where Are the Real Men At?

I gotta ask - how is it that someone with your beliefs has a user name of Thor?

I can't put my head around that.

reply to post by Aeons


Thor from Stargate SG1, Interestingly enough, 6-7 years ago when I first logged into ATS I would have read this thread and called for this attacker to be hung. EDIT I mean hung him myself.

Originally posted by Th0r
reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx

 

Domestic violence is a vicious circle anyway, saving a child from one beating is practically pointless. you either remove the child permanently from the danger or you stay away because at the end of the day you may actually be causing more harm than good.

I couldn't disagree more. The point is that it is one less beating the child will have to take.

It's the same as saying that we shouldn't send food to starving people today because they might not be able to get food tomorrow and it may cause harm by giving them false hope.

Originally posted by Doc Gator
I couldn't disagree more. The point is that it is one less beating the child will have to take.

It's the same as saying that we shouldn't send food to starving people today because they might not be able to get food tomorrow and it may cause harm by giving them false hope.

You are missing the point, it may be one less at that instance, but people who beat on children feed off violence, who is to say this newly scared man will not beat his kid/family twice as hard and twice as much from this point on. It's all well and good to assume you saved someone from a beating. but rarely does anyone think or consider the ripple effects of such actions.

And it's not the same and not sending food to starving people, that is absurd.

Originally posted by Th0r

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by Th0r
I see an animal attack another, I do not intervene. I learn of a man harming another. I do not intervene. I see a man in the process of harming another; do I intervene, or do I not? this question baffles me to the very core. I know the answer, but swallowing it and abiding by it, is the hard part.

You now what? You see a man beating up a child or a woman.......INTERVENE!!!!!

At what point do I or you stop? who am I to exercise violence when it is the very thing that destroys us all?

Well, let's back off of beating for a moment, and deal with something even more people care less about: lying. When is it justice to lie? Not when "they deserve what's coming to them". Lying to put someone in jail does nothing but jail the innocent that you happen to fully believe is guilty. It is only a good idea to lie when the lie protects the innocent. You're in WWII Germany, and you're smuggling Jews out of the country, hiding them from the Gestapo. Someone reports that you are hiding jews, and they come and knock on their door, saying "We know you are hiding Jew, where are they?" The only logical response at that moment is, "What Jews? Come inside wile I make you a drink of whatever I've scrimped together, and we can search the house for these "Jews" I'm supposed to have."

It's amazing to me how many Christians don't seem to get this concept. Watch the scripure they're supposed to believe in:

Matthew 22:35-40

35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " `YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

What He is saying is that if your understanding of right and wrong doesn't hinge upon loving God first, and everyone else, second, then you have missed the whole point of attempting to live a morally sound life. In most cases, God doesn't need your protection, but the innocent do. So lying for God is pointless, but lying to protect those who did nothing to deserve the atrocities that are coming their way is better than telling the truth every single waking moment of your life. This is by any means NOT the only scripture that deals with the concept of situational ethics. Nor is it the only faith that teaches the concept.

What is more important, being at peace with all men or saving the innocent from the evil? When the innocent are more important than a non-violent self-creed, then then there are times when your desire for peace will have to be set aside. No matter how sick it makes you feel.

Now, for those that believe non-aggression and live-and-let-live are more important than saving the innocent, when you find yourself in the position to save the innocent, and you do it, you are either going against your belief, or your belief is going against who you naturally are. If your nature cries out for protecting the innocent and your beliefs are in conflict, it's time to resolve the two...because your nature won't let your beliefs stand. Yes, effectively it is a come to Jesus speech.

Also, not all violence will destroy us. Most violece will. Sometimes it is a non-aggression pact that ensures violence continues to increase. Think: was the man still swinging when he was cracked over the head with a bottle? Did the cracking of the bottle over the head of the violent man cause violence to continue in the hand of the man who hit him or did he sotp and get sick to his stomach over it? Does this mean that the violent one will stop all his violence just because he got cracked in the head? Probalby not because once the threat of the bottle cracking is removed from his vicinity, what is there to stop him from doing it again? But I am willing to bet he thinks twice about beating anyone in public.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


reply to post by CynicalDrivel


nice, i mean it;s a good analogy, but what if by giving up one family of Jews you could safe harbor and save many more, the Nazi extermination teams inspects your home, find the Jews and kills them, kills you and your family. Nazi smart they search your family name, think well this brother here doesn't mind hiding Jews better check out his siblings cousins & parents homes... there is always more to what you do, say, and act than first appears, everything you do ripples, spirals outwards effecting all.. so logically (or illogically) I would prefer to start from a point of peace and sincerity even as daunting as you might perceive the initial outcomes to be.

Originally posted by Th0r

Originally posted by Doc Gator
I couldn't disagree more. The point is that it is one less beating the child will have to take.

It's the same as saying that we shouldn't send food to starving people today because they might not be able to get food tomorrow and it may cause harm by giving them false hope.

You are missing the point, it may be one less at that instance, but people who beat on children feed off violence, who is to say this newly scared man will not beat his kid/family twice as hard and twice as much from this point on. It's all well and good to assume you saved someone from a beating. but rarely does anyone think or consider the ripple effects of such actions.

And it's not the same and not sending food to starving people, that is absurd.

No, I fully understand the point. You seem to be missing the point. No matter what happened before or after, that child will not have to endure a beating that is stopped. I don't know what kind of human being you are, but I know that I could not live with myself if I turned my back on a child that was being beaten. I am strong, and I feel that I have a responsibility, as a human being, to protect the weaker in our society.

The food analogy is not absurd, it is spot on. You are advocating inaction based on something that might happen. It is the same train of thought that says you shouldn't fight back if you are attacked because it will just make your attacker more angry. I think most of us will agree that that is some of the worst advice (outside of grade school playground fights) ever given.

This isn't meant to be an attack. I simply do not understand how you can justify not acting in the above scenario.

reply to post by Doc Gator


I don't take it as an attack kind sir!

I understand completely, for I once was the same, but now I changed. What we do as human beings echoes outwards and I wish to only jump from a point of peace, it's not that I wouldn't want to help the child being beaten, it's that I see beyond it.

sorry this is silly, because protection of young and innocent is basic instinct which cannot be argued with. I can see you and say you are correct, I see me and say I am correct, but we can not have this here I suppose. it is likely that we need both points of view to advance as a species so I do not know what more I can say.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV -
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

I've always thought this says it best. Part of non-violence is the wisdom to know when violence is justified. With all the great thinkers and orators, including Gandhi you will find they believed there is a "time" for violence.

In fact, allowing a violent act against an innocent person to continue if you can stop it, is the most violent action to take.

Keep up the journey. You sound like your mind is in a good place.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
In fact, allowing a violent act against an innocent person to continue if you can stop it, is the most violent action to take.

Violent act, or life threatening act? If you can stop it without further bloodshed or violence then be it so. Saying non action is the most violent action is extremely inaccurate.

reply to post by Th0r


Given any scenario other than violent attacks on children or the elderly, I lean more toward your way of thinking. But I couldn't stand by and watch either of those without acting.

You have a valid point about the repercussions of our actions. Let me try another example. Let's say I'm standing in line at my bank. As usual, I am carrying a concealed weapon. All of a sudden, several people rush in waving guns around and tell everybody to get on the ground. What do I do? I get on the ground. Do I pull my gun? Absolutely not. The money is insured and it is much more important that everybody leaves that bank alive. The possible repercussions of my actions far outweigh the possible gains.

Now lets say that they make everybody get up and they are moving us to the vault. Now we know from previous bank robberies that our chances of living through this is almost zero. Now the negative repercussions of drawing and firing my weapon is inconsequential and the positive repercussions are well worth the risk.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is: yes, we need to be aware that our actions have reactions, but sometimes that doesn't matter.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Excellent OP, and you did the right thing, as long as you didn't kill the guy, the insane pathetic loser I might add.

The problem rests, I've concluded, in a failure of LOVE as the WILL, the employ the four tools of discipline for the sake of an enlightened mutual best interest, which are:

1) Delay of Gratification
2) Dedication to Truth
3) Acceptance of Responsibility
4) Balancing (as braketing of self and emotional braketing)

It's a lack of willpower, a lack of determination, and I blame Television of all things, and it's trancelike effects on otherwise passionate and inspired people.

Pop culture is to blame, and the loss of any real art as novel creativity.

It appears that we, or most of us, having simply lost our passion our joy de vivre, our will to action, and the courage with which to act, have just given up and given over to complete apathy in the face of an increasingly difficult and even frightening, world - given over, to fear and the constraint of timidity, you might say no longer a self expressed human being as a realm of possibility, and thus dead in a way, most certainly lost.

A Prayer
May God grant us the wisdom to choose the right and the power and the willfpower to make it happen.
Give us, the human being a new spirit of determination as we rage rage against the dying of the light.
Amen (make it so)

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Perfect. Thank you for this.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Dear my life is,
all i can say is i was not there. i am glad that u took care of the situation. but u are right there are a lot of guys out there
but few of us men, I have raised my son and am raising my grandson as to what a MAN must do, we few know how the present life of never ending games may confuse a guy as to how he showed act, how unfortinet ,Most just don't know what and if whene there actions will affect others. A man reacts to the needy to the helpless and to the ones weaker than himself no matter what . and i mean . NO MATTER WHAT.......


There is nothing more to say
I am sorry for what happend, truely
but we are few and have a lot of area to try and cover
best Sub

I'm gonna make this short and sweet.

There was a post awhile back on a similar situation. It is a mans job to protect. Period. Those that have wives and children, know and understand this. Those that don't, they will some day. I'm not here to contradict anyones viewpoints or to make waves. Ultimately, it is the man decision to stand up. Good for you OP. I wish I was present to have your back.

Semper Fi

Originally posted by Th0r
nice, i mean it;s a good analogy, but what if by giving up one family of Jews you could safe harbor and save many more, the Nazi extermination teams inspects your home, find the Jews and kills them, kills you and your family.

1. If I am going to be saving Jews, what am I doing keeping my kids in harm's way? When I send the first Jews on, the kids leave with them. As it is, the pack of lies that the Nazis educated kids with should have been reason enough for me to get my kids out long before it was time for me to hide Jews. The risk of saving people means giving my life. It is not pleasant, nor is it easy. That's why it is called sacrifice. Those who did harbor Jews and kept their kids had a hostage situation every time they were checked. It is not the smartest way to run doing right. 2. Sacrificing a Jew for more Jews only works when you're not caught in the act of sacrificing them. The ones who did the transportation of Jews through the woods and whatnot made that choice continually because they could come back and get more, if they escaped. But when they're in your home, you don't have that luxury. Getting caught and giving up what you have one time gets you put in the same prison as the Jews. Read Corrie Ten Boom.

Nazi smart they search your family name, think well this brother here doesn't mind hiding Jews better check out his siblings cousins & parents homes... there is always more to what you do, say, and act than first appears, everything you do ripples, spirals outwards effecting all.. so logically (or illogically) I would prefer to start from a point of peace and sincerity even as daunting as you might perceive the initial outcomes to be.

And for the most part, I'd agree with taking care of family first. The problem is who do you think is the one that ratted you out most times? Family turns on family. Threatening me with a family member's life that has less morals than an alley cat (I've got a Jerry Springer family) isn't going to work. And if they think and believe the same as I do, they're hiding Jews too, and they'd understand the lie.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


What in the **** are u tolking about WWII was a long time ago and as for famly thats a giving, Guess u the type to stand back and watch. Shame u dont know what being a mans all about, But guess ill put it to ur lack of real world education. just anouther one
to bad they never leared

reply to post by submariner

This post is about a kid being beat. thats the first and main point.
all that would stand asight and just watch, are the problum.
The OP had to step in and change the situation. Good for her but why, We men that are there should of fix it first, Thats what this post, is about the worthless male that sits and watches the wrongness in the world and dose nothing.
get a grip its not metaphisical its real world< as sempi said
STAND UP
for gods sake

Originally posted by submariner
reply to post by CynicalDrivel

 

What in the **** are u tolking about WWII was a long time ago and as for famly thats a giving, Guess u the type to stand back and watch. Shame u dont know what being a mans all about, But guess ill put it to ur lack of real world education. just anouther one
to bad they never leared

1. If you had followed the whole conversation, instead of jumping to a baseless conclusion, you would have seen I was giving an example of something that people care far less about than whether or not to beat people up: lying and the morality of when it is right to lie: i.e. situational ethics. It was an analogy, not a fact of what I'd do here and now, since no one in their right mind thinks that I'm going to be hiding Jews from Nazis any time soon. Which is why the person I was directing the conversation to said, "good point", then disagreed.

2. And as to whether or not I'm a spectator, I could give you thousands of examples of what I do on a daily basis, but all that would do is cause you to continue to say I do nothing and that all I say is a pack of lies because you are now in a state of preconceived notions.

But I'll have pity and give you one anyway, from nearly 20 years ago, when I was a child: I walked 1/2 a mile to a grocery store with my little brother to pick up a few things, including a gallon of milk. A punk my age tried to take the bag or 2 that my brother was carrying away from him...I swung the milk jug at him, got in between them, and got in his face and told him about his bullying behavior, lividly. My brother was MINE, and not his to mess with. I was in class with the same guy, and was picked on and taunted by most everyone in that grade without standing up for myself, so he thought going after MY kid brother would be as easy as picking on me--so he had reason to believe he could get away with his bullying behavior...and he wasn't alone there. I haven't changed.

3. I'm not a man, so that doesn't really mean much to accuse me of not being a real man. But I can tell you from what I do, not what I speculate, that I have little respect for those who cannot stand up to my own measure--although pity comes into play.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel


you are not a man, fine
and yes u may have had some situations in life, for that i do feel pity .
and as with my first statement u are not a man so...............
why do u feel the need to post to this ?
sorry life sucks but we are not here to make u feel better did u read the OP and if u did why are u posting back with ur tha world isant right crap, just read and learn.