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Karma and destiny: Why they don't make sense

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posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 04:41 AM
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I've been wondering about something. Are karma and destiny just a bunch of pure baloney and BS? How do you explain the following?

1. Is it always best to follow your destiny or to accept something that is "destined to be"? If so, then how come following one's destiny does not always have a positive outcome?

For example, in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul followed his "destiny" and became a follower of Christ and wrote some of the greatest books of the Bible, inspiring many Christians of his time up til the present. Yet he ended up being imprisoned by the Romans and then executed. Why did God let that happen? Is that how he rewards faith and obedience, by letting his follower get executed?

And in the Old Testament, the prophet Isaiah followed his "destiny" too by serving as the mouthpiece of God and delivering ultimatums to the sinful people to get them to change their ways. He did what God wanted and did his will. Yet he ended up getting sawed in half in a log. In fact, many characters in the Bible ended up with a gruesome death or disappointing outcome (such as Moses). Why would God let that happen to those who follow his will and their destiny?

Now I'm not saying that these Biblical accounts are historical facts, but you get what I mean. Many people who have followed their destiny ended up dying or meeting a gruesome fate. Amelia Earhart did, and became a famous legendary female pilot and inspiration, but ended up vanishing during one of her missions. JFK followed his destiny and became a great US president, the last good genuine president that we had in fact, but he ended up getting assassinated. And his brother RFK was about to become president and follow his destiny too, yet he too got assassinated. Also, Martin Luther King Jr. followed his destiny and became a great civil rights leader for Blacks, uniting them, inspiring them and giving them hope, making waves throughout the country. Yet he too ended up getting assassinated.

If these people didn't follow their destiny, they probably wouldn't have been assassinated. So is it always a good thing to follow one's destiny? Or is it better to fight one's destiny, if it will lead to danger and more trouble than you can handle?

Destiny has a funny way of forcing its will in your life. If it really wants something, it will make you unhappy and make things go against you, until you follow your destiny. So it doesn't seem to really give you a choice whether to follow it or not. If you don't follow its path, then it blocks your chosen path with a wall, until you turn around and obey your destiny. Doesn't that suck? It shows how little control we have over our lives, doesn't it?

What do you think?

2. As to karma, something doesn't make sense here. If karma always gave one his/her just reward or punishment, then explain this:

How come George Bush, Tony Blair and Dick Cheney can start a war in Iraq, killing a million people in the process, many of which are innocent, yet nothing bad happens to them? They are richer than ever, above the law, and untouchable. How come karma doesn't do anything to them?

Yet JFK was a good president who was sincere, good hearted, compassionate, just and uncorruptible. He stood up for what was right and against the evil plans of the other branches of government. Yet he gets assassinated. Where is his good karma for being good? Why did karma let him get assassinated unjustly?

Also, RFK was also a very compassionate, kind, selfless, caring, and made the alleviation of suffering in the world the aim of his life. You couldn't find a more kind, pure and wholesome candidate running for president. Yet before he could become president, he got assassinated. What kind of karma was that? Why didn't karma reward him for his goodness and selflessness by saving his life or preventing his assassination? WTF is up with that?

It is said that when RFK was dying, his last words were "Is everyone alright?" because he cared more about others than himself. That's the kind of man he was. So why would karma let that happen to him? It doesn't make sense.

Same with Martin Luther King Jr. He did a lot of good for black people and civil rights. Yet karma lets him get assassinated too? Why? Where was his karmic reward for helping others?

And Gandhi stood for peace. He was noble and brave too. So why was he assassinated? And why didn't his good karma protect him?

Also, how come so many good wholesome selfless people die young? Hence the phrase, "Only the good die young". How does karma make sense in that?

Is it better to be evil than good, as long as you are in a high position of power above the law? How does karma fit in all this?

Any idea?

Some karma believers try to claim that such people receive their reward or punishment in the next life. But they have no proof of that. It's just a way of "sliding the issue away". So isn't that just a copout?
edit on 16-8-2011 by WWu777 because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-8-2011 by WWu777 because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-8-2011 by WWu777 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 05:12 AM
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I understand your confusion (ha oxymoron?). But who's to say that JFK's destiny was to become president? Or that MLK's destiny was to become a civil rights leader etc. That kind of implies that someone told these people what it is they should do with their life. They wouldn't have known this to be the case. Do you know your destiny? Do you expect someone should tell you what you are supposed to be doing in life?

What happened to those people happened a certain way and it couldn't have possibly happened any differently. Because that's the way it all went down. JFK probably wasn't thinking "Well I'm supposed to be president one day so I better get busy making it happen.

The thing with karma. The way I understand it, (not saying I believe) is that it actually does affect your next incarnation. Rather than doing good things will get you rewarded in this life. That's the point. It's not a cop out answer because that's just the way that specific belief system is built. But also, look at Hitler. He was a jerk and he "lost" so to speak. Died in a bunker on fire.

The examples you cited were assassinated or met with untimely demises because they threatened those in power. Not because of a cruel karmic joke.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 05:16 AM
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If your after "proof" why the hell are you asking questions about destiny and karma?!

I'm just going to stick with Martin Luther King Jr...did his death suddenly end the dream? Everyone who was protesting just packed up and went home...?

Death is not the end, but merely the turning, going from one state to the next (and maybe back again, if your so inclined).

King did fulfill his destiny, and his words still inspire people today (as do JFK) and will continue so into the future.
The "good" die young because they are willing to sacrifice *themselves* for what they believe..what matter your own life, if you can save millions of people from oppression?

Or to put it simply..the movers, the shakers, the people that willingly risk themselves to change the world may die young..but thanks to them, billions of others can grow to a ripe old age and die in their beds.

I know which I'd rather be remembered as. Bring on Destiny


Peace out



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 05:35 AM
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The confusion is only in that your concepts of destiny and karma are confused within a Western mindset. Karma is not "reward and punishment", but only "cause and effect". We must all die sometime and there is no escaping it- until you reach Buddha-hood. What we do with the time we have here is the only important issue. Those who wish to return again out of love and compassion for their fellow humans are believed to do so, under the name "boddhisattva". How we die is irrelevant. Destiny is not something written in stone, but only the focused fulfillment of your highest potential, but without unnecessary earthly attachments.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 06:17 AM
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dear wwu777, sorry i havent got time to give long answer, but briefly (1) "god" is not same as "good", but is a form of evil itself (2) "god" (personal Egos of hebrews etc) is not same as GOD - the unknowable First cause Kamanic Proto-Unity (KPU) out of which ALL awoke, including the much smaller god / ALIEN(s) that half the world mistakenly "worship" (3) this is very much a problem of Human Cognitive Mechanism (HCM) mal-function, self-creation of Obscuration Engrams, which then become activatable by Spirit entities who specialise in letting you THINK they are god or GOD (clarify your definitions), so that they can get into human minds, and steal your Energies of common senses. usually they have NO trouble at all doing that, since gullible fanatics love to think they have been "selected" as special above other humans. (4) "destiiny" is a program written into your soul at birth / reincarnation. it is not absolute, and you can change it with varying degrees of your own Will very often. but there is NO totally "free" will. you will have to clear all your serious debts to other humans, but SOME of them may be forgivable by either the victims OR if the victim has itself turned excessively unrationalisedly Nasty, then our effective "mother god" # 2 and her assistants on the Inverse Prime Numbered Names of the Primordial Oscillation into Consciousness out of the KPU, SHE may Forgive and "save" you, but it likely will still be a tough climb, since you will have to think about hundreds of the problems of correcting Planetary mal-Administration (PMA) by the very god(s) themselves of whom 60% are magnitude of vector even worse than their own "devils". (5) there is almost NO "perfection" left in the universe, only the Best of whats Available (BWA) on the cosmic side of Administration, AND even of those you should not pray too hard to (if at all), just try to solve all your problems yourself. SHE will quietly notice if youre having too much difficulties, and hopefull will send some "angellic" help, BUT do not expect too much, since SHE / they are extremely OVERLOADED with all the problems on this planet CAUSED by much earlier Cosmic Wars of the Gods (CWG). the overall story is vast and most humans would think its a load of Fictional crap, so only after they have SUFFERED badly might people start to scream "whats going on" and eventually get to the Answers. Love WILL win in the end, but may not seem like it to you UNLESS you accurately Tally all events that happen in your life, not just the bad, but the good as well - which humans frequently tend to ignore in their haste to criticise. do NOT pray and grovel (jesus was inadvertently tricked by his own devils), just realise that SHE has an almost impossible task to accomplish, with 6 thousand million victims of the Primal Catastrophe CAUSED by the chief gods themselves (see first part of Clash of the Titans), then having the Treacherous scheme of trying to blame humans as "sinners" instead of them as causers. anyone furthur interested Kaman163@gmail.com - but any abuse will get abuse back !! thats karma my friends !!
kaman, oxford, england. better become a Pagan, and worship Nature forces of nameless freshness, or Qi (chi) energies,and you will eventually rise ABOVE the criminal god(s) via the natural moralities "given" (but not by any "knowable" person (epistemology of the first event into the causal chain), by the KPU



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by WWu777
 


That is why my signature says what it says. It sure doesn't seem that the people who are doing the most wrong to this world are getting their just rewards.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by WWu777
 


As a wise man once said, you will understand these things when you become liberated. Until then, they will simply be philosophical mental play. Or in other words, to try and conceptually understand these things without first being liberated, is futile at best.

Peace.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 06:47 AM
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My contribution.

Karma is :
when someone spit in the air and claims that it is raining.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 07:17 AM
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Originally posted by Stormwind
reply to post by WWu777
 


That is why my signature says what it says. It sure doesn't seem that the people who are doing the most wrong to this world are getting their just rewards.


I too have been seriously wondering whether there is any truth to karma...because I don't see evidence of it working in our world, and history tells me that the good people have been screwed and made to suffer for centuries.
edit on 16-8-2011 by wcitizen because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by WWu777
 


As a wise man once said, you will understand these things when you become liberated. Until then, they will simply be philosophical mental play. Or in other words, to try and conceptually understand these things without first being liberated, is futile at best.

Peace.


In other words, it's one more unproven and unprovable religious 'idea' which may be one more lie used to control the underdogs.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by lowundertheradar
The confusion is only in that your concepts of destiny and karma are confused within a Western mindset. Karma is not "reward and punishment", but only "cause and effect". We must all die sometime and there is no escaping it- until you reach Buddha-hood. What we do with the time we have here is the only important issue. Those who wish to return again out of love and compassion for their fellow humans are believed to do so, under the name "boddhisattva". How we die is irrelevant. Destiny is not something written in stone, but only the focused fulfillment of your highest potential, but without unnecessary earthly attachments.



It's not just 'cause and effect' - that is a simple fact of the universe. Everything has a cause. The teaching of karma is that negative intent, negative actions as 'cause' bring about negative experience as 'effect'. My point is that I see no evidence of this working out of negative cause having negative effect, or positive cause having positive effect, in the world. Not just today, but over centuries.

There is nothing in Buddhist teachings which indicates that karma only ripens after death, although they do say it can ripen in this lifetime or future lifetimes.

There is nothing at all that I see in the world which I would consider to be evidence of karma at work, at least nothing which is an observable, repeatable and therefore reliable pattern.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 07:57 AM
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reply to post by WWu777
 


To answer your question about Destiny and Karma you need to split the two because they are completely different from each other.

Firstly to understand destiny, take away any selfish viewpoint and look at the bigger picture. Imagine there was a child born in the world that had an amazing mind, strong body, supernatural powers even or more and it was really clear to see that this man or woman was going to lead humanity in some epic destiny or save us all from a massive threat etc.
One day the human race is invaded by aliens and the various armies are defeated, governments are crumbled, everyone is in slavery to the evil overlords (im not not at all great at stories
). Now to keep this short, one day the child (now an adult) makes a run at the mothership, in what appears to be a rather silly act of defiance, accidentally gets sucked up an engine shaft and the ship explodes in turn causing every single aliens brain to explode as they are all interconnected or something along those lines.
The persons destiny was to save humanity.

This is how I understand destiny, it can take any shape or form, everyone has it, but to understand it you must take away self preservation, selfishness, logical reason among other things for what of a better way to put it and destiny itself has a higher purpose than the person who is destined for it.

When it comes to Karma, I believe that there is no such thing in this world as Karma.

I think when it comes to things like this, most people want to know everything about anything that they can but they do not really know why. If you can justify why you want to know and understand something, you will find it.
Quite often life is becoming a random race for all this junk knowledge. Does it really matter?

Just my opinion.


edit on 16-8-2011 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 10:57 AM
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I totally disagree that one must be "enlightened" to understand these issues. In fact I find it can be viewed rather simply.

Destiny must be followed else it wouldn't be destiny. Destiny encompasses the individual life whether celebrated or mundane. But this does not exclude the influence of free will. Think of it as a tree where there are many individual branches all stemming from the same trunk. There are a variety of paths but they all lead to the same place inevitably.

Karma also must be followed but just because someone is kind and loving, a good leader, a great husband, a worthy teacher, etc. in this life does not mean they were so in a previous life and their murders are likely the result of karma stemming from a previous life. By this token it can be easy to view why so many of the "good" suffer. We live in an evil age, the Kali Yuga (not the goddess but the demon), where a great many crimes have been perpetrated over the centuries and all must be atoned for. Hence the great suffering we see all around us.

But there is also bounty and beauty. It's too easy to get caught up in what is wrong with the world and loose sight of what is right.

Also the assassination of a great leader often seems not to inhibit their work, but propel it does it not? Things aren't always black and white. In fact they rarely are.
edit on 16/8/11 by TravelerintheDark because: because



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by XXXN3O
reply to post by WWu777
 


To answer your question about Destiny and Karma you need to split the two because they are completely different from each other.

Firstly to understand destiny, take away any selfish viewpoint and look at the bigger picture. Imagine there was a child born in the world that had an amazing mind, strong body, supernatural powers even or more and it was really clear to see that this man or woman was going to lead humanity in some epic destiny or save us all from a massive threat etc.
One day the human race is invaded by aliens and the various armies are defeated, governments are crumbled, everyone is in slavery to the evil overlords (im not not at all great at stories
). Now to keep this short, one day the child (now an adult) makes a run at the mothership, in what appears to be a rather silly act of defiance, accidentally gets sucked up an engine shaft and the ship explodes in turn causing every single aliens brain to explode as they are all interconnected or something along those lines.
The persons destiny was to save humanity.

This is how I understand destiny, it can take any shape or form, everyone has it, but to understand it you must take away self preservation, selfishness, logical reason among other things for what of a better way to put it and destiny itself has a higher purpose than the person who is destined for it.

When it comes to Karma, I believe that there is no such thing in this world as Karma.

I think when it comes to things like this, most people want to know everything about anything that they can but they do not really know why. If you can justify why you want to know and understand something, you will find it.
Quite often life is becoming a random race for all this junk knowledge. Does it really matter?

Just my opinion.


edit on 16-8-2011 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)


Well we all have to be selfish to survive. Otherwise we will be taken advantage of and devoured. Everything in the universe survives by taking energy from something else. This is true of bacteria all the way up to stars and planets. We are all energy vampires of some sort. Yet we are all one at the same time? Go figure.

So what if destiny wants you to be a martyr, but you don't want to be? Can you fight it or deny destiny, and win?



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
I totally disagree that one must be "enlightened" to understand these issues. In fact I find it can be viewed rather simply.

Destiny must be followed else it wouldn't be destiny. Destiny encompasses the individual life whether celebrated or mundane. But this does not exclude the influence of free will. Think of it as a tree where there are many individual branches all stemming from the same trunk. There are a variety of paths but they all lead to the same place inevitably.

Karma also must be followed but just because someone is kind and loving, a good leader, a great husband, a worthy teacher, etc. in this life does not mean they were so in a previous life and their murders are likely the result of karma stemming from a previous life. By this token it can be easy to view why so many of the "good" suffer. We live in an evil age, the Kali Yuga (not the goddess but the demon), where a great many crimes have been perpetrated over the centuries and all must be atoned for. Hence the great suffering we see all around us.

But there is also bounty and beauty. It's too easy to get caught up in what is wrong with the world and loose sight of what is right.

Also the assassination of a great leader often seems not to inhibit their work, but propel it does it not? Things aren't always black and white. In fact they rarely are.
edit on 16/8/11 by TravelerintheDark because: because


The problem with that copout is that you can't prove it's true. And if it is not, then you are exercising victim-blaming on the innocent. Do you realize that? Therefore, anyone you see suffering unjustly must be guilty of something in a previous life. Isn't that stereotyping? What if it's wrong? Then you'd be unjustly blaming the victims, wouldn't you? Have you considered that?



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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First, think of destiny in terms of chaos theory. Since the big bang, every particle in the universe was set on a certain course. There are just too many varriables to be able to accurately predict their eventual positions and vectors. Since your made up of some of these particles and your reality is simply an interpretation of the world by your brain which has wired itself up based upon the different stimuli it has been subject to, its all too possible that you have no free will.

Karma...you misunderstand. It's not a carrot and stick thing. Merely a way of teaching that if you continue with the same behaviours, you'll likely have the same outcomes. For instance, if you steal from your neighbours, there will come a point when you are ostracised by them, maybe even ending up in jail and on your release, you may only be able to live somewhere rough, that's full of people like you. Whereas, if you change and start helping and being pleasant to your neighbours, they may start socializing with you and helping you out when you need it. That is the essence of karma.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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...lots of definitions for both concepts... whose definition is right and whose is wrong?... everyone's / no one's cuz we're all just guessing anyway...


...heres how i see it...

...destiny is the result of choices you make - and - there is no singular destiny because we're constantly making choices...

...karma = what you do comes back to you in some shape or fashion... its kinda like the golden rule - treat others like you want to be treated... sounds good, huh?... if only everyone lived that way, the world would be wonderful, right?... not imo... why?... cuz how a masochist or a psychopath / sociopath perceives the golden rule is far removed from how i see it...



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 01:01 PM
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Well, if you believe in judgement AFTER death that could explain why the suffering is not repaid in this lifetime.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 01:48 PM
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My simple understanding is this:

Destiny is part of our life path.....places, people, work...IMO they are all written into our life plan before birth by ourselves and our spirit guide, and while incarnate, the guide helps it all unfold as it should.

Karma is the energy that surrounds the events, people, work, etc.....wrongs we did to others, second chances given to make things right. It involves the emotional energy we feel in relation to the people, places and work we do, and we try to make the energy better than we left it in a past life. Karma also gives us opportunities that we earned from our efforts from past lives, for example, a singer with exceptional talent in this lifetime most likely used her voice in other lifetimes to help make life better for others, whether she did her best to reasure others with her voice and choice of words, or she just loved to sing because it mader her feel good even though her body didn't have such a great voice (this is just a random example). Karma compounds throughout lifetimes, so its just better to do your best and build on what you are good at. We choose to have the karmic experiences that we have, and they are usually anchored into destiny. For example, being destined to meet the love of your life in another part of the country from where you lived your entire lifetime. Your destiny will bring you to the right place so you can meet this special person. Now, once you meet them, its karma that determines whether you stay together or not. Does this make sense?

Anyway, its not complicated as long as its thought of as destiny is part of a life plan and karma is part of the energy once you meet the destiny.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by WWu777

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
I totally disagree that one must be "enlightened" to understand these issues. In fact I find it can be viewed rather simply.

Destiny must be followed else it wouldn't be destiny. Destiny encompasses the individual life whether celebrated or mundane. But this does not exclude the influence of free will. Think of it as a tree where there are many individual branches all stemming from the same trunk. There are a variety of paths but they all lead to the same place inevitably.

Karma also must be followed but just because someone is kind and loving, a good leader, a great husband, a worthy teacher, etc. in this life does not mean they were so in a previous life and their murders are likely the result of karma stemming from a previous life. By this token it can be easy to view why so many of the "good" suffer. We live in an evil age, the Kali Yuga (not the goddess but the demon), where a great many crimes have been perpetrated over the centuries and all must be atoned for. Hence the great suffering we see all around us.

But there is also bounty and beauty. It's too easy to get caught up in what is wrong with the world and loose sight of what is right.

Also the assassination of a great leader often seems not to inhibit their work, but propel it does it not? Things aren't always black and white. In fact they rarely are.
edit on 16/8/11 by TravelerintheDark because: because


The problem with that copout is that you can't prove it's true. And if it is not, then you are exercising victim-blaming on the innocent. Do you realize that? Therefore, anyone you see suffering unjustly must be guilty of something in a previous life. Isn't that stereotyping? What if it's wrong? Then you'd be unjustly blaming the victims, wouldn't you? Have you considered that?


Perfectly said. I don't subscribe to the idea of karma precisely for that reason. It's just a system used to arbitrarily justify suffering upon the innocent, and for centuries it was used to control entire societies.



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