PA Rejects ‘Two States for Two Peoples’

reply to post by Dark Ghost


They can choose to purchase whatever they want. They do not have to purchase settlement goods to survive, the majority of Israeli citizens are fairly well off.

I am not lumping them together, but when there is no pressure, no protest to force the government of Israel to make peace with the Palestinians the Israeli population do take responsability for the continuation of the conflict.

You kind of did use that brush when you stated ' would you prefer that Israel and its 7 million civilians simply disappear? That is quite loaded language when talking about the Jewish people.

Mistakes?!! The ethnic clensing of the Palestininas in 1948 was not some kind of mistake that the Zionists under Ben-Gurion just stumbled into. It was a plan, 'Plan Dalet'. Look it up.

reply to post by backinblack


I hope you aren't referring to the events of the 2nd Intifada as "so-called terrorist attacks"...they were very real for Israelis during the time. Do you even know about those events?

Oh and Israel has made plenty of mistakes in their handling of the conflict. They have been pretty well covered here on ATS already so no point in me repeating them for the 100th time.

I know American history and don't hold any illusions about the reality of war, so I'm much slower to condemn Israel than others. There are some real problems, however, and I'm at a loss as to how to fix them.

1) Even the original plan was bad and was contested by arabs, but the solution in 1947 wasn't a good one. Many outside influences have messed with that area.... pretty much forever.

2) Israel pretty much owns the entire place, so rather than a 2 state solution, a single Israeli state seems more reasonable to me at this point.

3) A proportional response seems ridiculous to me. If I were Israeli, I would support responding to suicide bombs with hellfire missiles, if not more extreme measures.

4) The PA uses the media to play Israel as the bad guy all the time and pretty much lives off the kindness of others.

I'd be interested in some real solutions, because a two state solution doesn't seem like it would work although I would support one if Israel was serious about agreeing to one (which also doesn't seem likely.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by backinblack

 

I hope you aren't referring to the events of the 2nd Intifada as "so-called terrorist attacks"...they were very real for Israelis during the time. Do you even know about those events?

Oh and Israel has made plenty of mistakes in their handling of the conflict. They have been pretty well covered here on ATS already so no point in me repeating them for the 100th time.

edit on 16/8/2011 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

I wasn't referring to anything.

I've just noticed it's hard to get some on ATS to actually say Israel has done anything wrong..
They just skim the question with little or no details as you have just done.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Israel has made it damn clear they don't want Palestine to become a State..
In fact it's one of the few things we know for sure about Israeli policy..

Why not question them??

And Palestine does not want Israel as a state . . . so . . .?

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

How can Israel be democratic when it operates an apartheid state within the West Bank and an illegal blockade of the Gaza Strip? How can it be democratic, when now anyone who crictizses the occupation is now open to civil suits? How can it be deomcratic when the Arab citizens are referred to as a fifth colomum by the Israeli elite and treated as second class citizens?

All of those are debatable, but maybe you should research the different forms of democracy.

Belguim and Switzerland were not lived upon by an indigenous population that were ethnically clensed before they were set up. This is what happened in 1948.

Changing the goal posts, now. Figures. You asked me to name which other democracy that I know defines itself by the ethnicity, religion of one section of its society.

Belgium and Switzerland came to mind, and they fit that bill. I also gave you the type of democracy they run.

You don't understand that removing 20% of a population from a country, who are citizens of this country, who do not want to leave is ethnic clensing?

And removing the 5 million+ is not?

I back a two state solution as do the PA.

Apparently they do not, as evidenced in the video.

They just do not wish to sell out the Palestinians who live in diaspora or the ones who reside in Israel, who the Israelis have not been able to get rid of.

How would a two state solution be selling anyone out?

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Well whether you think they are debatable or not is kind of irrelevant as luckily and unsurprisingly you are not a major player in the conflict.

However the UN is. An organisation considered by the majority of countries and Human rights groups as the main forum for settling conflicts.

UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week, Reuters reported. "International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. "I have consistently reported to member states that the blockade is illegal and must be lifted."

www.worldbulletin.net...

Numerous Security Council and other U.N. resolutions have dealt with specific serious Israeli violations of the 4th Geneva Convention and other acts contrary to its provisions, such as settlements; measures related to Jerusalem; deportations; indiscriminate shooting of civilians and collective punishment. The resolutions all condemn such illegal Israeli actions and call for their cessation and for full Israeli compliance with the provisions of the Convention and the terms of those resolutions. In several of these resolutions, the Security Council has called for measures to provide for the safety and protection of the Palestinian civilian population and requested the U.N. Secretary-General to fulfill certain tasks in this regard.

unispal.un.org...

Changing the goal posts, now. Figures. You asked me to name which other democracy that I know defines itself by the ethnicity, religion of one section of its society. Belgium and Switzerland came to mind, and they fit that bill. I also gave you the type of democracy they run.

Not really moving the goalposts, just setting some context. You cannot compare the situation of a foreign takeover of Palestine in 1948 with the ethnic cleansing of nearly 800,000 indigenous inhabitants from their homeland and homes with a peaceful creation of a state and democracy in Belgium & Switzerland.

And removing the 5 million+ is not?

I do not know what you are on about here?

Apparently they do not, as evidenced in the video.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what the PA said. They do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state, because it isn't. That is the difference.

Even Hamas are bending to international will and beginning to accept the two state solution as the only viable option for the Palestinians.

“The whole world knows what Hamas thinks and what our principles are,” Mr. Meshal said in an interview in his Cairo hotel suite. “But we are talking now about a common national agenda. The world should deal with what we are working toward now, the national political program.” He defined that as “a Palestinian state in the 1967 lines with Jerusalem as its capital, without any settlements or settlers, not an inch of land swaps and respecting the right of return” of Palestinian refugees to Israel itself.

www.nytimes.com...

Shame Israel won't.

How would a two state solution be selling anyone out?

I was quite clearly referring to the PA being required to recognize Israel as a Jewish state by the Netanyahu coalition as part of any negotiation and give up any right of return the the Palestinians in Diaspora

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Israel has made it damn clear they don't want Palestine to become a State..
In fact it's one of the few things we know for sure about Israeli policy..

Why not question them??

And Palestine does not want Israel as a state . . . so . . .?

Thanks for proving my point..

reply to post by backinblack


You were downplaying the Terrorist attacks committed by Palestinians as "so called", did you not? And I have already admitted that Israel has done wrong in the conflict. But you want specifics? Israel has treated Palestinian civilians inhumanely and used disproportionate force in retaliation to Terrorist attacks against them. Much of what you see today (blockades, checkpoints, separation walls) is the harsh result of years of suicide bombings and general acts of terror against Israeli civilians.

Some do not consider them terrorists..
Some believe they are freedom fighters, fighting against an invading force..
Looking at a map and seeing Palestine rapidly shrink adds credibility to that stance.

I disagree with many of their actions but I do not disagree in the fact that Israel is the aggressor..

We could call the IDF terrorists just as easily..
Seems to me the only difference is that the IDF has advanced weaponry..

Odd how those that have to use what's available are considered terrorists while those with tanks,choppers and jets are not.

reply to post by backinblack


Freedom Fighters still need to be held accountable for harming and killing civilians though. They should also be held accountable for attacking their enemy while within civilian areas.

What do you suggest?

The entire Hamas army approach the Israeli border together and say "Let's have a fair fight?"

BTW, Israel have killed more civilians than Hamas..
What's their excuse??

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


May i ask a question, which is, When was Palestine renamed and is Israel in Palestine.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Question #2: if Israel is in palastine, who runs that country (Palestine).