would al qaeda hate us less if we stopped bombing innocent muslim children?

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by SirMike
reply to post by filosophia

 

I see ... so we (NATO) is targeting schools because they offend the prophet by teaching girls. Got it.

So are you saying the USA is carrying out attacks for al qaeda's prophet?

So ... lemme see ... inadvertently attacking an "empty" school is the same as driving an SUV with high explosives into elementary school thats in session.

Got it.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by SadButTrue

 

I really don’t like to be this blunt but I know what I am talking about, some people on ATS can tell you about every UFO landing in the past century, other explain the wonders of the ancient Mayans, and some can talk to you all day about the NWO, as for me, I can talk all day about terrorism.

You are flat out wrong to say that the reason that Al-Qa’ida “hate” the west is because they are jealous of our comparatively privileged standard of living. I have explained to you why this statement is wrong pretty clearly. If you have questions feel free to ask and I will explain further if I can.

There is no weakness, only strength in admitting you are wrong, if you think you are right all the time then you can only be ignorant all the time.

So what makes you an expert on terrorism? When was the last terrorist camp you hung out in and learned what they teach? When was the last time you were in a muslim country? What did you study? What degree? What are your credentials?

If you're gonna claim to be an expert in something you need to qualify it, just because you studied some work from a think tank, articles, government website, doesn't qualify you as an expert. Reading "stuff" from "people" doesn't make you know more than others who didn't read the same thing, it makes you believe you know something that is someone else's opinion or conclusion.... nonetheless, it doesn't mean you know a lot or by any standards can be an authority on it.

We give opinions here, and discuss topics. Unless you can verify you're some sort of terrorism expert or terrorist who grew up with those teachings, than your opinion is just like anyone else's. Don't pretend you're an expert just because you "read" some stuff.

While reading through this thread and some others similar to it, one thing keeps crossing my mind as a question. How is it people can relate and draw comparison between the United States Military and Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters?

The U.S. Military certainly has some problems and I've never heard more vicious complaining with better points made than by those who serve IN it. (full disclosure: I have a family with strong military tradition. MEPS doctors ended my ideas of serving back in 1994 for medical issues) The U.S. system has abuse and war crimes (Lets drop the games...there isn't another way to see some of what has happened) DO occur. In the American system however, those who do such things are prosecuted and go make little rocks out of big ones for a few years..or decades...or lifetimes. The United States doesn't lionize or reward them. Americans don't pat them on the back and congratulate them. They simply go to Military Prison when caught or, rumor has it, worse from time to time. Thats how it should be.

The Taliban and A.Q. on the other hand, fight entirely differently and I didn't have to serve there to see that. They declare it from their own spokesman and they post their own videos of perfectly HIDEOUS executions of both military and civilian people they've captured in the past. I can't be convinced otherwise when the source for my feelings about those people come from THEM DIRECTLY. Suicide bomber families are often paid by leadership as compensation and appreciation for the sacrifice. Yeah..tell me the practice isn't accepted and considered legitimate by a larger % than might be talked about in MSM.

There simply is no comparison possible here. The United States system badly needs reform, and it needs it to various degrees top to bottom. The enemy "system" needs removed and wiped out. You can't reform something that celebrates it's worst characteristics and encourages the worst behavior as defined by the rest of the world and basic human decency.

Originally posted by SirMike

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by SirMike
reply to post by filosophia

 

I see ... so we (NATO) is targeting schools because they offend the prophet by teaching girls. Got it.

So are you saying the USA is carrying out attacks for al qaeda's prophet?

So ... lemme see ... inadvertently attacking an "empty" school is the same as driving an SUV with high explosives into elementary school thats in session.

Got it.

The university was not empty. You are denying an atrocity. Depleted uranium is being used on these innocent people who had nothing to do with 9/11 or any other terrorist attack.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm sorry to say but I see a very real comparison between the U.S. military and al qaeda.


Both kill in the name of their faith.

Both kill innocent women and children.

Both use hideous forms of torture (warning graphic).

Both want the destruction of non-believers.

All of the popular myths of al qaeda are actually describing the brutality of the U.S. military. But the scary thing is, the U.S. war crimes are actually real. Why don't you take another look at the al qaeda beheading videos, and watch in every video, right after the head is cut, the camera suddenly and mysteriously cuts away. Then combine this with the fact that the CIA hired and trained the 9/11 hijackers in U.S. military bases, and you have the construction of the boggie man al qaeda, but that's just a fairy tale, unfortunately, the crimes of the world army, under the directorship not of sovereign nations but international organizations like NATO, and private central banks, those atrocities are very real.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
What has always struck me about that quote is that Robin Cook is not an expert in the history of terrorism and the Guardian has an expert on Al-Qa’ida who writes for them, Jason Burke and his book says the opposite.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Jason Burke is an expert on terrorism, not by a long way. He has written a couple of books about Al-Qaeda, but that doesn't make him an expert on terrorism. It may however make him more knowledgable about Al-Qaeda, which is not the same thing.

Robin Cook was British Foreign Secretary, that means constantly interfacing with diplomats and Intelligence Services. Are you suggesting the British diplomats and intelligence services had it completely wrong?

All I am saying is that I would not read that and go away thinking “Al-CIA’da” if you read the plethora of books about Bin Laden you can start to debunk that myth about “Al-CIA’da” for yourself

And all I am saying is that you should not read something then completely discount it just because it may tarnish your nationalistic pride. To see a story in full clarity, you really need to view it with an unbiased mind.

st.

reply to post by filosophia

I'm really not sure what to say in response to that one. While I have tended to agree with "truthers" to the extent that the only investigation for the overall event was a bigger farce than the Warren Commission and some aspects of it sure as heck stink badly, I make a point of avoiding the more extreme end of the conspiracy theory on this. It's miles beyond where I believe reality ends.

One thing I will reply to on that relates to the (in my view) absurd notion that we trained the Hijackers with American resources. Al Qaeda and the Taliban may well have funny business going on at the very top levels of power. It won't surprise me if blurring and some questionable deals and alliances don't date back to the start of both organizations.

However, to think that the street level fighters and mid-level fanatics who actually DO DIE in the suicide attacks are hobnobbing with CIA Case Officers before they go kill themselves in a blaze of glory is just silly on the face of it. The very act these Jihadis commit shows pretty clearly how deep their devotion is for the cause THEY seem to believe is worth dying for.

As misguided we all agree it may be, they don't feel that way and it isn't the CIA they are saying is great right before they detonate themselves in a busy public market or crash a plane. It's easy to get awfully creative about these conspiracy theories...but there is an important factor here. A moment before they suicide, they honestly and deeply BELIEVE they will be looking Allah eye to eye in a few seconds. Is it realistic to think they knowingly do this for the NWO or the United States Intelligence Community?

probably not..
I mean, there's a lot of children, teenagers, fathers alive in Iraq..
You really need to wait an entire generation, maybe two generations for justified revenge hatred like that to subside.
But the oil will run for a few more years i rek'n!

Originally posted by SirMike
Maybe, just maybe there is a connection between the US's hatred for AQ and Taliban and the fact that AQ and Taliban bombs innocent muslim children? Isn't this a normal attitude to take, to hate the organization that is bombing you? When Germany was bombing cities the name nazi became infamously evil, so how is AQ and theTaliban doing anything different?

"Bombing you?" America is where the Taliban is bombing innocent Muslim children? Your post makes no sense. They are not us. That is between them and them. What you are suggesting is that we hate them for bombing innocent children in other countries so we fix that by bombing innocent children in those same other countries. Somehow you justify that as bombing "you?"
Wild logic.

reply to post by Lolipop



Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden started to hate the USA and this was mostly due to the Gulf war.

When Iraq under dictator Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait which started the Gulf War, Bin Laden offered Saudi Arabia(his home country) to bring his freedom fighters from Afghanistan to repel Saddam Hussein's invasion from Kuwait. Instead, Saudi Arabia invited American forces and other western countries to repel Saddam Hussein's Army. This anger Bin Laden because he felt that the Middle East is a holy land and foreigners(particularly Westerners) shouldn't have set foot on it.

Bin Laden decided to draw America into Afghanistan by attempting several terrorist attacks such as the 1993 WTC bombing(6 people were killed and 200 more wounded), Khobar Towers bombing(19 Americans and one Saudi were killed and 372 others injured), USS Embassy bombing in East Africa(212 local citizens and 12 Americans were killed and thousands more wounded), and USS Cole bombing(17 American sailors were killed and 39 were injured). Despite this, the US ignored it largely they felt that their soil was not attacked.

After the US embassy bombing in 1998, President Bill Clinton retaliated by launching cruise missile strikes on suspected Al-Qaeda targets on Afghanistan as well as targeting a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan. However Clinton decided to chicken out by deciding not to kill Bin Laden as he did not want the public to think we are in an out-going war with Al-Qaeda. He thought that ignoring it the problem would go away.

Finally Bin Laden launched a terrorist attack that finally draw the United States into attention on September 11th, 2001, when two civilian airliners hijacked by Al-Qaeda flew into the World Trade Center and came tumbling down, killing thousands of people from different nationalities.

This is what caused the War in Afghanistan.

I don't know if they would hate the west less if the bombing stopped, but I assure you they will hate the west more if it continues.

Every life lost, no matter what side, generates a lot of hate. And then people want to kill so they feel better.

reply to post by filosophia


No, they probably wouldn't. They're a group of brainwashed religious nutjobs who are run by thugs trying to make a quick buck at the expense of lives.

Originally posted by SadButTrue

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by SadButTrue

 

I really don’t like to be this blunt but I know what I am talking about, some people on ATS can tell you about every UFO landing in the past century, other explain the wonders of the ancient Mayans, and some can talk to you all day about the NWO, as for me, I can talk all day about terrorism.

You are flat out wrong to say that the reason that Al-Qa’ida “hate” the west is because they are jealous of our comparatively privileged standard of living. I have explained to you why this statement is wrong pretty clearly. If you have questions feel free to ask and I will explain further if I can.

There is no weakness, only strength in admitting you are wrong, if you think you are right all the time then you can only be ignorant all the time.

So what makes you an expert on terrorism? When was the last terrorist camp you hung out in and learned what they teach? When was the last time you were in a muslim country? What did you study? What degree? What are your credentials?

If you're gonna claim to be an expert in something you need to qualify it, just because you studied some work from a think tank, articles, government website, doesn't qualify you as an expert. Reading "stuff" from "people" doesn't make you know more than others who didn't read the same thing, it makes you believe you know something that is someone else's opinion or conclusion.... nonetheless, it doesn't mean you know a lot or by any standards can be an authority on it.

We give opinions here, and discuss topics. Unless you can verify you're some sort of terrorism expert or terrorist who grew up with those teachings, than your opinion is just like anyone else's. Don't pretend you're an expert just because you "read" some stuff.

and your credentials are what?

you must hang wit des guys right?

you schooling him on what terrorists think?

why is your "opinion" better than his or mine?

show us your cred dud, i mean dude.

anytime now, we are all waiting for your terrorist expertise!

The old BS flag gets raised when ever I hear the word al-Qaeda

Robin Cook, the Database and Secrets

Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.
As far as I know, this was the first time publicly, in the anglophone world, that the al-Qaeda name had been explained as referring to a computer database.
If Robin Cook was starting to spill secrets, his sudden death one month later would have saved the defence, intelligence and security services from having to confront a difficult problem, one which would have had no obvious, certain solution

December 24, 2008
December 24, 2008

Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook says:

The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US. Cook has previously written:

Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Cook is merely confirming what others have said. Former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told the Senate that the war on terror is "a mythical historical narrative".

There Is No 'Al Qaeda' -
Ex UK Foreign Secretary
12-22-8

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."


-- Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ." -- Pierre-Henri Bunel

'In the BBC’s killer documentary called The Power of Nightmares, top CIA officials openly admit, Al-Qaeda is a total and complete fabrication, never having existed at any time. The Bush administration needed a reason that complied with the Laws so they could go after “the bad guy of their choice” namely laws that had been set in place to protect us from mobs and “criminal organizations” such as the Mafia. They paid Jamal al Fadl, hundred’s of thousands of dollars to back the U.S. Governments story of Al-qaeda a “group” or criminal organization they could “legally” go after.'

‘Al Qaeda’s’ Arabic Translation is ‘Toilet’
(Highlights)

The widely known translation of ‘Al Qaeda’, sometimes spelled ‘Al Qaida’, is ‘The Base’. However, this is not the only translation of the ominous term. There is another. “Ana raicha Al Qaeda” is colloquial for “I’m going to the toilet”. A very common and widespread use of the word “Al-Qaeda” in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name comes from the Arabic verb “Qa’ada” which mean “to sit”, pertinently, on the “Toilet Bowl”. In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: “Al-Qaeda” also called the “Hamam Franji” or foreign toilet, and “Hamam Arabi” or “Arab toilet” which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called “Ma Qa’adia” or “Little Qaeda”. Why would a terrorist group call itself ‘The Toilet’? Did Osama really choose to name his terror network after potty humor?

reply to post by SadButTrue


At no point in there did I say I was an expert, I would not pretend to be such all I done was say that I could go on all day about this.

The only point here that I am making is that it is factually incorrect to state the reason terrorists, in particular Al-Qa’ida hate terrorists is because they are jealous of our western standard of living, I have explained to you why that is. You can either accept it or you can continue to entertain your own ignorance, it makes no difference to me.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


dude wake up
There Is No 'Al Qaeda'
its not real

take a breath and rethink...if they aint real then who are the USA fighting..who did 911 the dots you need to join may be come clear....

first thing to understand There Is No 'Al Qaeda'

reply to post by 297GT


If that is what you chose to believe then I am not going to stop you, I know myself that Al-Qa’ida does exist (or rather did depending on how you want to look at this) and members of that group where responsible for the attacks on 9/11

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


LOL
join Yahoo! Answers it's more akin to the displayed ignorance....

Dont belive me...no probs
This guy has more "credentials" than I
Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . ."


Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook was starting to spill secrets, his sudden death one month later‘

Al Qaeda’s’ Arabic Translation is ‘Toilet’

the al-Qaeda name had been explained as referring to a computer database. ......



Maybe research and loose the MSM blinkers...

reply to post by 297GT


Actually I think you will find what Robin Cook actually said was this

“Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.”

Robin Cook: The Struggle Against Terrorism

Which comes from the Guardian, I think that counts as the MSM. I find it humours that the conspiracy theories are quite happy to use the MSM when it backs up their arguments but otherwise denounce it as misinformation. If you actually look at what he has wrote you can find some problems, firstly that the CIA and GID armed and funded him. The truth is that there could be some connections between Bin Laden during the 1980’s and GID but not the CIA. Under the agreement with the Pakistani’s the CIA were forced to take a hands off approach to the funding and arming of Afghan Mujahedeen and had effectively no involvement with the Arabs. Also what he is saying about Al-Qa’ida meaning the database and so on comes from another confusing part of history what he is actually talking about is Maktab al-Khidamat which actually had one of Bin Laden’s old university mentors as its leader, Abdullah Azzam with Bin Laden as his deputy/partner. In 1988 Bin Laden split form MAK because Azzam wanted to amalgamate the group with afghans. Bin Laden then split from MAK over this decision and crated the first Al-Qa’ida in the middle of 1988. By 1988 the soviets had already began their withdrawal of troops and by the early 1989 had fully with drawn. At which time Bin Laden went back to Saudi Arabi, version 1.0 of Al-Qa’ida never really done very much.

Also pay attention to what Cook has said at the end about how he then turned against the west. It’s also telling that he does not claim that Al-Qa’ida does not exist or that Bin Laden was ever a agent of the CIA. Once you move away from the alternative autobiography of Bin Laden’s life you start to develop a ability to critically analyse quotes like this and deduce that they are quite possibly BS that was never thought through very well.

Also “Al-Qaida” or “Al-qaeda” is the common spelling that most in the west use when talking about this terrorist net work and that may or may not translate as toilet I don’t know because I regard it as a silly distraction from the truth. In anyway Abdel Bari Atwan in his book devotes some time to the correct spelling of Bin Laden’s group and concludes that it should be spelled “Al-Qa’ida”, which I think you will find may not translate directly as “toilet”.