IDs* reportedly found @ Shanks: 75% of the 4 hijackers, only 12.5% of the 40 passengers

Yeah, nothing odd about that.


(*I define "IDs" as anything allegedly found at the scene with someone's name, or photo on it.)

IDs of alleged Hijackers "found" at the scene:

1. Saeed al-Ghamdi - passport (PA00108)
2. Ahmed Al-Nami - driver's license (PA00110); Saudi Arabian Youth Hostel Association ID (PA00102)
3. Ziad Jarrah - passport (PA00105.08); also business card of Ziad's uncle, Assem Jarrah
4. Ahmed al-Haznawi - no IDs reportedly found


Note that there were supposedly two passport-sized photos found at the scene. To me, they sorta look like Al-Nami. If one of them is al-Haznawi, then 100% of the hijackers IDs were "found."
PA00103.2 - Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00103.3 - Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site



IDs of alleged passengers "found" at the scene:

1. Lorraine Bay (flight attendant) - in-flight manual
2. Andrew Garcia - wallet
3. Richard Guadagno** - credentials and badge from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
4. CeeCee Lyles - driver's license & personal effects (P200069)
5. John Talignani - driver's license (P200068)
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----------------------------

**Interesting comment about Richard Guadagno's "found" personal effects:

"It was practically intact," Richard's sister, Lori, said of the credentials, which were returned in their wallet. "It just looked like it wasn't damaged or hadn't gone through much of anything at all, which is so bizarre and ironic."

Yeah, nothing odd about that.

I agree, a ditch dug in a field is hardly a crash site.

Cool info, I have never seen those pics that the govt says is their evidence

Amazing that only the terrorist identifying objects were found, Kind of like Attas passport fluttering down from the tradecenters only to be picked up unscathed by a cop.........right

Weird things happen in crashes all the time. Ask any patrol officer.

But since niether of you were at the crash site who are you to say anything was amiss?

Originally posted by samkent
Weird things happen in crashes all the time. Ask any patrol officer.

But since niether of you were at the crash site who are you to say anything was amiss?

If the search was focused on recovering ID's, to turn up a majority of ID's of suspects, without recovering many victims'... that seems odd, no?

Originally posted by GhettoRice
I agree, a ditch dug in a field is hardly a crash site.

With hardly any fire damage to the ditch and grass all around the ditch!

Amazing that only the terrorist identifying objects were found, Kind of like Attas passport fluttering down from the tradecenters only to be picked up unscathed by a cop.........right

Satam al-Suqami's, actually (I should say allegedly), and it was "found soaked" in jet fuel and picked up by a "passerby" and given to a detective.

Suqami's passport survived the crash and landed on the street below. The passport, soaked in jet fuel, was picked up from the street by a passerby who gave it to a New York City Police Department (NYPD) detective shortly before the South Tower collapsed.

Suqami's passport was found by a passerby, reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street,[8] before the towers collapsed.[9] (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohamed Atta's passport.) A columnist for the British newspaper The Guardian expressed incredulity about the authenticity of this report,[10] questioning whether a paper passport could survive the inferno unsinged when the plane's black boxes were never found.

Yeah, nothing odd there.

Originally posted by ATH911

Amazing that only the terrorist identifying objects were found, Kind of like Attas passport fluttering down from the tradecenters only to be picked up unscathed by a cop.........right

Satam al-Suqami's, actually (I should say allegedly), and it was "found soaked" in jet fuel and picked up by a "passerby" and given to a detective.

Suqami's passport survived the crash and landed on the street below. The passport, soaked in jet fuel, was picked up from the street by a passerby who gave it to a New York City Police Department (NYPD) detective shortly before the South Tower collapsed.

Suqami's passport was found by a passerby, reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street,[8] before the towers collapsed.[9] (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohamed Atta's passport.) A columnist for the British newspaper The Guardian expressed incredulity about the authenticity of this report,[10] questioning whether a paper passport could survive the inferno unsinged when the plane's black boxes were never found.

Yeah, nothing odd there.

Nothing odd indeed... any word on who this "passer-by" was and what happened to them? While I hold no opinion on what really happened that day, other than no believing that the USGOV is being at all truthfull, I think people are too quick to dismiss how easy it is to plant evidence such as this.

This is my opinion on the passport:



Some higher quality shots of the condensation trail:





The passport was not soaked in jet fuel, as can be seen in the photos.




The passport was found by Richard Wozniak near the Bankers Trust building.

He does have an on line email address if you would like to contact him.

Quote:
I was now standing in what seemed to be a war zone. There were scattered police and firefighters all around the streets. It seemed that I was one of only a handful of civilians so I had to pass myself off as a security agent as I was determined to stay and help. I was now outside the Bankers Trust (130 Liberty St.) building approximately 100 ft. or so away from the entrance of the main tower. I could hear objects hitting the ground around me so I decided to work my way around the back of the building and now I had learned what had happened.

I was standing in the middle of what were the remains of a passenger aircraft. There were seats and engine parts smashed through car windows everywhere. What seemed to be an engine was embedded into the sidewalk and body parts were strewn all over the street. Then I looked down to my feet and picked up a passport. It was a Saudi passport. It was green with Arabic writing and as I opened it and saw the man’s face inside it and I felt as if I were looking into the eyes of someone that may have been part of the terror that I was witnessing around me and I later learned that I was right as I passed it off to an FBI agent that was standing a block away on West side Hwy who immediately took it from me. He then instructed me to leave the area but before he could notice I ran back to the side of the Bankers Trust building determined to help find survivors that may have been hurt in the streets or in the cars. Then my life was changed forever.

9_11_testimony

reply to post by waypastvne


That theory is about as likely as the fairy tale the gubment is telling regarding the fateful day.

reply to post by ATH911


Again you lie......

Found lot of other effects from passengers on United 93 - not all of them were entered into evidence at the
Moussaoui trial

The binder was entitled "Unassociated Personal Effects of Flight 93"... Inside were colour photographs of everything found in Shanksville not clearly linked to a particular person. Jer's wedding ring didn't survive, but seventy other pieces of jewelry did, along with a bewildering variety of scrunchies, hats, belts, bras, desses, T-shirts, unmatched shoes, and other items that somehow escaped the heat, some virtually unmarred. Then there were keys, books, gift cards, letters, photographs, compact discs, pens, medallions... Some of the shoes were badly mutilated, disturbing evidence of the violence to which they'd been subjected. There was a length of electrical cord, a crumpled cigarette lighter, eighteen toenail clippers in various states of mangling. There were many snapshots of children, most painstakingly glued back together...

Liz Glick (widow of Jeremy Glick)

"So what am I getting back?" I asked Miller when he got off the phone.
"A credit card", he said. "It got melted some but it's mostly intact"...

found a pair of his black briefs on the second page of the men's underwear. They were discoloured and savagely torn, but there was no question they were his... At the bottom of the page was an American Express datebook. The cover looked burned and maybe water damaged as well...

Only those items clearly identified with a victim (drivers license, badge, etc) were entered into evidence at the trial

FBI had other things to do than match every piece of mangled clothing with the owner

Assuming that the figures in the OP are correct (I haven't checked sources, etc...), we can do some very simple maths to calculate the event.

Hijacker population size = 4
Confirmed ID Hijacker sample size = 3
Non-Hijacker population size = 40
Confirmed ID Non-Hijacker sample size = 5
Total population size = 44
Confirmed ID Total sample size = 8

Using basic combinatorics we note that:
Pr(event in the OP occuring) = (4C3) * (40C5) / (44C8) = 288 / 19393 = 1.5% correct to one decimal place.

In other words, given that eight positive IDs were made, the chance that three of them were from hijackers and five of them were from passengers is almost 1.5%.

EDIT: What other important assumption am I using to arrive at this result?

reply to post by tezzajw


False reasoning (as usual)

The evidence was used during Moussaoui trial to link him to the terrorists on various flights

The prosecutators has a book listing all the recovered personal effects - some could clearly be linked to an
individual on that flight (Cee Cee Lyles drivers license, Richard Guadago badge) Much of the rest would have taken considerable time to do so . The prosecutators picked out the least damaged objects, those that
could be definitely linked to an individual and then used these as exhibits in the trial to "humanize" the
passengers

As for the terrorists prosecutators picked out objects FBI could link to them to prove their being on United 93

Much of the evidence was in form of passports carried by hijackers - who as foreigners would have needed
them to travel

US passengers travelling on a domestic flight (Newark NJ to San Franciso CA) would not normally carry their
passports (if they had them - I dont have one)

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by tezzajw

 

False reasoning (as usual)

Did you miss the opening line in my post where I stated that I haven't checked the facts of the OP???

I was purely using the numbers supplied by the OP to perform a calculation. I wasn't agreeing with, or claiming any of the OP as fact.

Seriously, thedman, when something is so obviously printed in front of your face, you should take the time to read it.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by tezzajw

 

False reasoning (as usual)

Did you miss the opening line in my post where I stated that I haven't checked the facts of the OP???

I was purely using the numbers supplied by the OP to perform a calculation. I wasn't agreeing with, or claiming any of the OP as fact.

Seriously, thedman, when something is so obviously printed in front of your face, you should take the time to read it.

Well if YOU dont have all the facts as you state why bother no doubt you will be familiar with this.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Originally posted by ATH911


**Interesting comment about Richard Guadagno's "found" personal effects:

"It was practically intact," Richard's sister, Lori, said of the credentials, which were returned in their wallet. "It just looked like it wasn't damaged or hadn't gone through much of anything at all, which is so bizarre and ironic."

Yeah, nothing odd about that.

How many times has there been a sole survivor in a plane or car crash or any other type of accident.
Strange things happen its luck

Did a quick google search put in "survives fire" got lots of links look at this one

19th century Indian necklace survives fire

theworldlink.com...

From the link.

But some things survived. A beaded necklace, dating to at least the 1850s, had been kept inside a plastic ornament box. The box was four or five inches tall and had been stored in the shop, near the hottest part of the fire. When the fire subsided and the family went to sift through the remains, they found a small lump of plastic, charred on the edges. The necklace was inside, preserved in the bubble.

Who would have thought that would happen

Never make assumptions ATH911 they often bite you in the A*%

reply to post by thedman

US passengers travelling on a domestic flight (Newark NJ to San Franciso CA) would not normally carry their
passports (if they had them - I dont have one)

Personally I use my passport for ALL flights domestic as well as overseas. My reason is I feel it's safer to pull my passport out of my bag at checkin and then again at the gate. Otherwise I have to pull my wallet out of my back pocket, then extract my drivers license from its sleeve. Only to reverse the process with many people waiting behind me to board the plane. It’s just too easy to drop something in the rush and it identifies which pocket its in and there may be bills with the corners exposed.

The passport just gets dropped back into my laptop pouch. Who wants to steal a passport on a plane anyway.

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by ATH911

 

Again you lie......

I don't think the guy who keeps pushing the falsehood that there were multiple dumpsters of plane debris at Shanksville should be pointing fingers.

The binder was entitled "Unassociated Personal Effects of Flight 93"... Inside were colour photographs of everything found in Shanksville not clearly linked to a particular person.

Nuff said.

Liz Glick (widow of Jeremy Glick)

"So what am I getting back?" I asked Miller when he got off the phone.
"A credit card", he said. "It got melted some but it's mostly intact"...

OK, I'll count this alleged credit card of Jeremy Glick.

So let's see...

IDs* reportedly found @ Shanks: 75% of the 4 hijackers, only [15]% of the 40 passengers


Wow, that's so less suspicious.

Only those items clearly identified with a victim (drivers license, badge, etc) were entered into evidence at the trial

Accept for these, right?...

1. Lorraine Bay (flight attendant) - in-flight manual
americanhistory.si.edu...

2. Andrew Garcia - wallet
www.post-gazette.com...

3. Richard Guadagno** - credentials and badge from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
www.post-gazette.com...

Originally posted by thedman
Much of the evidence was in form of passports carried by hijackers - who as foreigners would have needed them to travel

US passengers travelling on a domestic flight (Newark NJ to San Franciso CA) would not normally carry their
passports (if they had them - I dont have one)

Um,

why would it matter if most, if not all, of the alleged non-hijacker passengers didn't have a passport on them?

Originally posted by wmd_2008
Did a quick google search put in "survives fire" got lots of links look at this one

19th century Indian necklace survives fire

Um, not sure how you can compare the two. Where was the great fire in Shanksville?

And Guadagno's personal effects supposedly crashed into that field officially at 580 mph with a 60 ton aluminum plane around it.

How fast did that necklace in the plastic box land where it did?

Wow, nice work OP.

The perps were clearly not the A team. Very sloppy.

Um, not sure how you can compare the two. Where was the great fire in Shanksville?

And Guadagno's personal effects supposedly crashed into that field officially at 580 mph with a 60 ton aluminum plane around it.

How fast did that necklace in the plastic box land where it did?

As usual have problems with reading comprehension....

Post was referring to a fire where the necklace survived, it was not in Shanksville . As usual cant discern
the facts from delusions

As for Guadago badge - you are aware that numerous items survived the crash of space shuttle COLUMBIA
in 2003 ? It broke up at speed of 12,000 mph at altitude of 200,000 ft. Exampled how did video tapes,
notebooks, even dish of worm survived such a crash. ?

Many item survived Shanksville including clothing, bags of mail - objects often survive the crash

The binder was entitled "Unassociated Personal Effects of Flight 93"... Inside were colour photographs of everything found in Shanksville not clearly linked to a particular person. Jer's wedding ring didn't survive, but seventy other pieces of jewelry did, along with a bewildering variety of scrunchies, hats, belts, bras, dresses, T-shirts, unmatched shoes, and other items that somehow escaped the heat, some virtually unmarred. Then there were keys, books, gift cards, letters, photographs, compact discs, pens, medallions... Some of the shoes were badly mutilated, disturbing evidence of the violence to which they'd been subjected. There was a length of electrical cord, a crumpled cigarette lighter, eighteen toenail clippers in various states of mangling. There were many snapshots of children, most painstakingly glued back together...

"After calling for backup from several area fire companies, King and the other firefighters, who had never responded to an airplane crash, surveyed the scene. None of them was prepared for what they saw. King recalls the paper strewn in the trees and clothing and shoes scattered on the ground. There were no bodies, he says. Just body parts. 'That's when the sheer destruction of the crash really hit home,' he says."

As for fire - Ever see a high impact crash scene ?. I have. Much of the jet fuel gets dispersed
aersolized - it ignites in a large fireball. Very impressive. Yet will quickly burn out. We had the post crash fires
out in 10 minutes What was left was strong odor of jet fuel from who didn't burn

Shanksville VFD firefighter Keith Curtis: "I walked up to where the tire was on fire, probably a hundred feet past the crater. It was a big tire. I was thinking that this is a big jet. I hit it good with the hose and put it out. I stopped and 'poof,' it just started on fire again."