"killing civilians, to save civilians" will never make sense

I have noticed that this issue is still avoided. Does it make sense to claim that you are bombing a nation to save civilian lives, when those bombs obviously kill civilians. It has bothered me for a long time, if we are to accept bombs as means of saving civilian lives, then why wouldn't we accept torture, genocide, or even mass rape to save civilian lives?



War apparently is not for self defence anymore. Everyone agrees that war = civilian deaths, but in this case we have NATO which claims that war = save civilian lives. When NATO kills civilians in Afghanistan, the main excuse use is the term war, and that in war civilians will inevitably get killed. But those who rallied behind NATO in its war against Libya forgot the same claims made by NATO, that war will cause civilian deaths.

Unfortunatley, this has been life in general for thousands of years. In order to protect the civilians of all nations, rogue nations must answer to the nations that support other nations which combined are attempting to accomplish a better lifefor the benefit of all humans.

Why reading your post I have no idea why but I remembered a saying by Spock in Star Trek...

'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'

Still seems very illogical to me but when are you supposed to understand madness?

J S Wintersong

reply to post by Archangelelijah


"rogue nations must answer to the nations that support other nations which combined are attempting to accomplish a better lifefor the benefit of all humans."

Seriously, you think that nato, un and such of that ilk are trying to make a better life for the benefit of all humans? I think you have been reading too many propoganda pamphlets and have swallowed the BS they sell each of us on a daily basis.

You really think that these people that are manipulating everything today to try to attain the vision that they have for the world are doing it for our benefit?

History repeats itself, this is just the latest version of the roman empire, it never really went away, it adapted and now it wants a change in the world, which is what all this BS is today, really, they dont give a flying toss if you live or die, wake up man.

Rape and torture are created to both inflict pain AND emotional suffering while the bombs are sterile and lethargically targetted.

They are still different.

What do you think is the easier task?

To cut a mans throat as members of your group hold hime down, or
press a bomb from oceans away and kill possibly hundreds, to get a few?

I think one takes a certain sort of sadistic bastard, to be honest. The other is the young victim of the madness the opposing side despises..

So the Allied war on Nazi Germany, which killed millions of civilians, was for nothing by your argument?

It may sound cold: but to make an omelet you have to break eggs.

What is sad is that some dictators deliberately use civilians as human shields, while others try to break the spirit of a rebel army by targeting their homes, farms and families (as was done to the Boer people during the British Scorched Earth policy).
All's fair in modern war it seems, and terrorism usually targets civilians to cause an oppressive over-reaction from the opposing military that will sway the remaining civilians into the terrorists' ideology and sympathies.
Civilians are really the key to modern warfare.

It may be immoral; but it certainly makes sense to sacrifice civilians.

killing civilians to save civilians is simply a logical thought process of war.

and since war still makes sense, so does killing civilians - because there is no absolute way to protect them all.

however...

once the logic of war is removed from humanity's mind set will one see the sense of killing civilians finally eradicated.

What I find most baffling is that, more often then not. its the religious that are so willing to kill for an idea. Its a very sad state of affairs this world is in.

Originally posted by brommas
reply to post by Archangelelijah

 

"rogue nations must answer to the nations that support other nations which combined are attempting to accomplish a better lifefor the benefit of all humans."

Seriously, you think that nato, un and such of that ilk are trying to make a better life for the benefit of all humans? I think you have been reading too many propoganda pamphlets and have swallowed the BS they sell each of us on a daily basis.

You really think that these people that are manipulating everything today to try to attain the vision that they have for the world are doing it for our benefit?

History repeats itself, this is just the latest version of the roman empire, it never really went away, it adapted and now it wants a change in the world, which is what all this BS is today, really, they dont give a flying toss if you live or die, wake up man.

edit on 13-8-2011 by brommas because: (no reason given)

I stated unfortunatley my friend! Yes, humans would not live in the comfort of lounge chairs and computers we now have without assistance from The UN and other organisations.

It was for the benefit of all people to live in comfort and learning. The disabled can live life better than they have previously. Nothing will ever be perfect but you don't live like children in Somalia do You! Wake Up!

reply to post by Archangelelijah

humans would not live in the comfort of lounge chairs and computers we now have without assistance from The UN ... It was for the benefit of all people to live in comfort and learning. The disabled can live life better than they have previously. Nothing will ever be perfect but you don't live like children in Somalia do You!

it would seem we aren't the ones 'sleeping' ... so, which ALL of the people are your referring in your quote ?
Every country i've seen the UN 'get involved' is declining rapidly ... yet you see improvement?

do tell, shouldn't Somalia be a greater priority to the UN vs Libya ? or maybe the Sudan vs Egypt or any number of real issues instead of this ...

10 August 2011 – The main bodies of the United Nations such as the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) must be reformed if the Organization is to play its rightful role in achieving more effective global governance in the in the 21st century, General Assembly President Joseph Deiss has warned.

soooo, now they're appointing themselves World Police too ???
since the civilians have greater numbers, tis the only way to 'level the playing field' ... they cannot have total control until they outnumber the civilians !!

reply to post by halfoldman


People these days care too much about collateral damage. When NATO hit civilians, people screams yet when a enemy does it, nothing is said. This is how the media is played in Vietnam. Somehow we supposed to learn from the Vietnam era that we should not blame on soldiers. But somehow modern times are getting worsen than it was.

One thing I also find in film and literature is that soldiers across foxholes suddenly find they have more in common with each other, then the civilian parents, schools, churches and bureaucracy that put them in a uniform and lied to them both.

Sometimes civilians are the really evil bastards - the real criminals without uniforms.
Unless they're someone you actually love, you think: to hell with them!

But that would apply more to historic wars where fairly equal armies faced each other.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by Archangelelijah

 

humans would not live in the comfort of lounge chairs and computers we now have without assistance from The UN ... It was for the benefit of all people to live in comfort and learning. The disabled can live life better than they have previously. Nothing will ever be perfect but you don't live like children in Somalia do You!

it would seem we aren't the ones 'sleeping' ... so, which ALL of the people are your referring in your quote ?
Every country i've seen the UN 'get involved' is declining rapidly ... yet you see improvement?

do tell, shouldn't Somalia be a greater priority to the UN vs Libya ? or maybe the Sudan vs Egypt or any number of real issues instead of this ...

10 August 2011 – The main bodies of the United Nations such as the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) must be reformed if the Organization is to play its rightful role in achieving more effective global governance in the in the 21st century, General Assembly President Joseph Deiss has warned.

soooo, now they're appointing themselves World Police too ???

I agree, that the UN is a worthless organization and has done nothing but harm. All these guys does is pass resolutions, talk the talk and enforce sanctions that does nothing but more harm. I mean look it how the UN only allowed 400 peacekeepers to guard the unarmed Bosnian Muslims refugees, Serbian forces came in and took them away and massacred over thousands of unarmed men in Srebrenica. I mean does Rwanda Genocide ring the bell? The UN did nothing about it then blame is on us instead.

Let's not forget the oil-for-food scandal where the UN like France, Germany, Kofi Annan, and Russia was bribed by Saddam in order to trade for wealth where millions of Iraqis die. No doubt that every country in the world is corrupt but what sad is that barely no on mention about the oil-for-food scandal.

War is never about saving lives. Its about making money
and acquiring more power. PERIOD

Yep.

This not a war. This is a Cull. A cull of the Libyan population. The UN lied in order to invade Libya. See link:

Libya war lies worse than Iraq

The lies used to justify the NATO war against Libya have surpassed those created to justify the invasion of Iraq. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch both had honest observers on the ground for months following the rebellion in eastern Libya and both have repudiated every major charge used to justify the NATO war on Libya.

This invasion is plain and simply a war crime. The mission is to kill the population and to take over the Government, Oil and Gas and all the resources.

According to the Amnesty observer, who is fluent in Arabic, there is not one confirmed instance of rape by the pro-Gadaffi fighters, not even a doctor who knew of one. All the Viagra mass rape stories were fabrications.

The only rapes being done in Libya is by the UN approved Rebel fighters. While the rest of the world looks on and is fed the BS from the Mainstream Mediaabout how bad Gadaffi is to his people the UN death squad NATO bombs the hell out of schools, universities, food factories and the communities.

This is a massacre and extermination of Libyan people and values. This is not a War. It never has been a War.

This is a Crime! Against humanity!

reply to post by stevcolx


I tried to give you two stars but didn't work. Too bad because the truth is suppressed but propaganda is accepted. Deny ignorance my ***.

It's called propaganda. Welcome to the show business.