debating beliefs and religion with others...

This was a reply to another persons comments in a thread about a quiz. to see what your religious belief system is.
I realized after posting it, it was a bit off topic and long for the thread it was in. So I am starting a new thread to share this. I had a revelation today while debating in another religious thread...I think I will stay away from this board from now on...unless I have something nice to say

I want to word this reply very sensitively because I am really not trying to be offensive at all!
Ok here we go...
I had a rough youth, saw things kids shouldn't see as well as understanding things kids should not understand! There are people who have had it much worse than me, much worse and I am thankful I was never severely physically abused, or sexually....just came from dysfunctional people who should not have had children together or at all.
I moved a lot and seemed from the age of understanding on, I always stumbled into church somehow! On the first day of school I always met a girl who would invite me to youth group etc.

I moved every few months across states so this was a very odd occurrence. I loved church, it was the one bright spot in my week of darkness at home. I went alone, my parents and siblings chastised me and even made fun of me when I would "witness" to them. However church kept me going, the lord if you will was there for me.
However I was THAT girl, the one who asked questions there were not answers for or made her sunday school teacher uncomfortable.
I once stopped getting picked up by one church bus for this very reason.
As I got older my questions only increased and I got very few answers. Experiences I had, were not lining up with the scriptures or the common doctrine. One minister who I confided in, who said he had the very same questions and similar experiences helped me some. Curious side note, within 6 months he left the ministry....after 40+ years. He now teaches a more spiritual based message.
Anyway, and I was married into a hyper religious judgmental family with sooooo many nasty skeletons in their closets it isn't even funny! They committed and ignored criminal acts and prayed it out instead of taking the proper routes.
Anyway, I saw and witnessed so many sad hypocritical things....in church. If Jesus was so loving and accepting, why were his followers so close minded and judgmental!
My life was depressing, I was yearning for answers for peace and there was none found inside the walls of church....only guilt and a feeling of never being good enough. Which I was taught was a good thing...oh you never want to feel good enough, you always want to be yearning...
Somehow this state of being is supposed to bring peace?
Anyway, my marriage was crumbling, more religious guilt...what am I doing wrong! Reading so many christian self help/relationship books. No peace.
Left husband, left church...left in seek of answers. I was having a crisis of faith according to my Christian friends.
I was THINKING! so what... is thinking the opposite of faith?
I began to find answers and understanding and you know what PEACE!
No more guilt, no more yearning.
While I am still learning more and more each day, I am no longer in this guilt ridden limbo! I am good enough!

Anyway which brings me to today...without the grace of the lord shining down on me.
Things and opportunities have opened up for me, apartments, jobs, schools, classes....money has just fallen in my lap exactly when I needed it!
I have not been without once in more than 2 years! I am truly happy for the first time in my life....
So I too have had life fall into place time and time again..without the help of a savior.
Do I believe in a higher power? YES!
I have even prayed for peace to God in times of need (fear of flying) and felt peace.

After debating with people today, I had a sort of mini revelation.. a bit of shame and sadness as well.
Who am I to argue with what anyone believes. Everyone believes and has exactly what they need...and if they don't and keep searching for it, eventually they will.
Some don't need organized religion to feel peace and love....
Some need organized religion and the rules and the promise....
and even if you don't want to believe in something...heck you can believe in that too.

I have many many friends who are Christians and the look in their eyes when they worship THEIR God, is peace...They are comfortable and happy and in love with their Savior....
They feel just as much peace as I do, believing in what I believe.
I may debate but I am going to try and keep in check, I don't ever want to diminish some ones belief system again...I am not going to change their minds...just as they wont change mine.
I am going to try and be a better person in this area of discussion!

Edited to add: I was so excited to find ATS and discuss things with like minded people..this is the first time I can really speak to people about my beliefs in such an open forum and way! It is exciting, and I just want to try not to get carried away, or egotistical when people believe differently than me

Thanks for sharing that ....


Im sure we could all learn a thing or two from you post

Some people choose (or are compelled) to take the hard road to self-discovery and others sit blindly in idle belief. I personally applaude that you to the road less travelled. Each person, I think, should come to terms with the nature of the universe through their own knowledge and spiritual explorations. This is why I thoroughly despise those who would proselytize to me or chastise me for my beliefs.

The road less travelled is harder to follow but the scenery and knowledge and spirutal fullfilment is much greater. Ultimately this leads to wiser and happier people.

Everything I needed in life to keep me out of trouble, was set in place for me.
I can look back and see how perfectly it all was placed. No accidents!
It all brought me to this place...My time in the church gave me hope in darkness, and kept me out of the trouble a dysfunctional life could have taken me too.
It was there until I could find the answers I was searching for....the answers just didn't fit with organized religion.
I am still finding answers, every day....My life is in the best place it has ever been.

reply to post by Htrowklis82


Quite frankly, the board could use more posts like these. I would probably post more, or read more for that matter. It was good and inspiring to read, so thank you. So many feel they have the exclusive truth for all rather than a piece of it.

Agreement isnt necessary to discuss these matters, in fact, disagreement can encourage growth.. but cooperation and respect, including internally, is everything. Fine line sometimes, I guess. The fact it happens on this board at all is a testament to something or another.

The variety through which we all come to the same place (the universe) is incredible. Good job finding your path and actually walking. I think that path is your own, and its good to realize others do not necessarily walk it. We all have to forge the trails ourselves and hopefully, learn and grow from them. Sometimes others can be a light in the distance but it is always our own choice.

To choose not to diminish anothers view of the world is a noble thing. There is a lot to learn from how another sees things, but arguing who is "right" most frequently leads no where productive. It is good to be completely happy about who you are and where you are at, balanced with the idea that as limited beings, we can always better ourselves. Your words hit close to home.

I am still finding answers, every day

Im not so sure that will ever end if you keep growing and walking Its a beautiful thing, really.

reply to post by Htrowklis82


You can't reason with someone who has strong faith, that is, ruling out all possibilities in light of one particular "theory".

You can't reason with those who believe morality is absolute and written through men, inspired by an cosmological dear leader.

reply to post by sinohptik


Hi Sinophtik; long time no see.

Ofcourse the thread author is correct in the best of all worlds. which we unfortunately don't live in. We live in one, where there are/have been jihadists, christian 'soldiers-of-god', Black Kali thuggees, blood-sacrificial religions. And that's just the religious part of the invasive ideologies.

It has often been said, that if people had criticized Hitler earlier and more openly, a lot of problems could have been avoided.


A private, subjective, adult-consenting faith is nobody else's business. But any invasive, monopoly-seeking ideology manifesting socially must be prepared to meet opposition.

And all religion isn't cutey-cutey bhakti. Some is BRUTAL.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by sinohptik

 

Hi Sinophtik; long time no see.

Indeed!

It has often been said, that if people had criticized Hitler earlier and more openly, a lot of problems could have been avoided.

Of course, had Hitler even followed actual christian doctrine (Love one another), the problems could have been avoided as well. But he chose differently, as did many who assisted him. Perhaps we dont "live there" because of our collective decisions as humanity. Such things can only be done personally and for ourselves, but they affect everyone around us. I can not make decisions for another, but I do make my own. Which, if given the proper opportunity and foresight, would have been to criticize Hitler. Maybe it was not due specifically to lack of opposition though (as well as your other listed cases), but also largely due to how society affected the people individually and the decisions they chose based upon that. And we are that society, at least a part of it.

A private, subjective, adult-consenting faith is nobody else's business. But any invasive, monopoly-seeking ideology manifesting socially must be prepared to meet opposition.

I do not think such an oppressive force is exclusive to religion. It is not so much the idea that "individuals" can have "success" or not, on their own merits, but when it comes at the expense of others it is a problem. Pretty much the world in a nutshell though, isnt it?

And all religion isn't cutey-cutey bhakti. Some is BRUTAL.

Thats what makes it clear to me personally how not to choose to live. I will not live that way.

With that being said, our discussions were always respectful and encouraged growth, yet we still disagreed on things. That, I think, is exactly what the OP is pointing towards. So thank you

reply to post by sinohptik


You wrote:

["I do not think such an oppressive force is exclusive to religion. It is not so much the idea that "individuals" can have "success" or not, on their own merits, but when it comes at the expense of others it is a problem. Pretty much the world in a nutshell though, isnt it?"]

Being restricted by the perimeters of this forums potential subjects, it ofcourse mainly stays with religion. In other contexts I have a similar anti-authoritarian attitude.

Quote: [" With that being said, our discussions were always respectful and encouraged growth, yet we still disagreed on things. That, I think, is exactly what the OP is pointing towards. So thank you "]

To my regret, I remember an occasion, when I was unduly harsh towards you. But with some good will and honest communication, this was straigthened out. And in a more suitable and relevant context than this, you mentioned some really fascinating speculations of your own, which I hope to get a chance of becoming informed of sometime.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by sinohptik

 

Being restricted by the perimeters of this forums potential subjects, it ofcourse mainly stays with religion. In other contexts I have a similar anti-authoritarian attitude.

I think it is interesting, as my own "religion" is intrinsically linked to my life. It carries through all my actions, thoughts, and words. Because of that, it is difficult to separate between things such as that! But you are certainly correct.

To my regret, I remember an occasion, when I was unduly harsh towards you. But with some good will and honest communication, this was straigthened out. And in a more suitable and relevant context than this, you mentioned some really fascinating speculations of your own, which I hope to get a chance of becoming informed of sometime.

I am tougher than I would appear Dont worry about it, but perhaps next time, live and learn? Your own choice, after all!

I would love to talk about my speculations, but I agree this is not the place for it. As always, feel free to send a U2U I think our thoughts may align more than our disagreements would suggest. I have no doubt we would learn from each other.

reply to post by sinohptik


You wrote:

["I think it is interesting, as my own "religion" is intrinsically linked to my life. It carries through all my actions, thoughts, and words. Because of that, it is difficult to separate between things such as that!"]

As is my own 'metaphysical' position, which has been my main motivation the last 45 years.

Quote: ["I am tougher than I would appear Dont worry about it, but perhaps next time, live and learn? Your own choice, after all!"]

Unfortunately I'm amongst the stubborn and amongst the slow learners in that directon. But I can see the purpose of, to the best of my ability, changing that.