Does Military/Government insider testimony on the reality of UFOs constitute as proof to you ?

Originally posted by R1220518
All those ex military and astronauts from the disclosure project seemed pretty damn reliable. It was like over 15 highly decorated officers

Why do you think they are telling the truth?

If those same men were telling you there is no cover-up, would you still believe them?

Originally posted by Zcustosmorum
Ok, well elaborate on your "mistaken" idea, how can they all be wrong? Some examples of "mistaken".

How would it be impossible for them to be all wrong?

Mistaken would mean being wrong.

Foolish would be thinking it is impossible for an arbitrary number of people to be wrong about something.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by Zcustosmorum
Ok, well elaborate on your "mistaken" idea, how can they all be wrong? Some examples of "mistaken".

How would it be impossible for them to be all wrong?

Mistaken would mean being wrong.

Foolish would be thinking it is impossible for an arbitrary number of people to be wrong about something.

How would it be possible for them all to be wrong?

The major problem with any 'secrets' allegedly disclosed by military personnel (retired or active), and/or civilian contractor personnel participating in classified programs (retired or still employed) is that... These people would stand to lose everything if they were truly divulging information that is imperative to national security. They could be fired, lose their security clearance to ever work on anything for the government again, lose all of their pension, and worst case... go to prison. Both government and civilian personnel to be involved in any classified programs, sign documents stating this very clearly. And the government would not be shy about going after people who break their promise. And no... They don't do it by strangling somebody in their home with a piece of wire.

So in other words... Anybody who says they are disclosing some big secret that they were made privy to is basically... full of s**t. They either have a nutty sense of humor... have a few gears slipping... or are trying to make money. Or all of the above. And the reason why they're not worried about the government coming after them, is because they know what they're saying isn't a secret... Because it never happened in the first place.

I do believe on rare occasion, there's probably been some unfortunate souls that were gullible enough to be used as tools to spread misleading information, so as to confuse spies. But that would have been mainly during cold war times. Old-timers who worked on programs decades ago will also fudge a little sometimes, when they know it's something that has been made known overall, and what they have to add isn't going to endanger anybody. But anyone truly in possession of highly classified information... will most likely go to their grave with it. The government is quite good at figuring out who can be trusted and who can't.

"The government is quite good at figuring out who can be trusted and who can't."

I disagree with this.

In the place I worked, everyone was um....flawed.

Per this.
www.trutv.com...

security clearance from the FBI, the CIA, and the National Security Agency.
Boyce got those clearances within a few months after he began working at TRW. Now he could work in the Black Vault. Chris was flattered that he had received such a high security clearance. It meant the government must think highly of him.
Despite that fact, he thought little of his government. Like many other Americans, he was disgusted by the U.S. intervention in Vietnam. ....... Boyce claimed later that the atmosphere of the ultra-secret Black Vault was both surprisingly jovial and lackadaisical. People used the CIA document destruction shredder as a blender to make daiquiris. “Put it to some use,” he commented wryly. “They were doing it before I got there. It wasn’t my idea but it made a hell of a daiquiri.”
One of his colleagues was a Vietnam vet who enjoyed regaling people with war stories. The vet bragged about how he and a fellow soldier had raped a Vietnamese woman as her husband, held at rifle point, watched. He also told how he and other soldiers had taken Viet Cong prisoners and pushed them out of helicopters. At first, Boyce thought the man was making up these stories. As time went on, though, the stories’ considerable detail led him to conclude that they might well have been true. His co-worker’s accounts of Vietnam fueled Boyce’s belief that the U. S. was no better than other superpowers past or present.

Christopher Boyce, like the others who worked in the Black Vault, was often sent outside the office on “booze runs” to the liquor store. He would go past the guards, satchel in hand, and they would obligingly look the other way.

Chris and his crew were civillians working for the TRW center, while I was low ranking military, in a military center. Nonetheless and nothehey, similarities abounded, with wrong things. Ahem. I have often thought "why" about such, and one possible answer is, uncredible people make uncredible whistleblowers,and none of us was educated beyond high school, and no one around me was more curious and more bright (okay seemingly,) than they were, obeisance with the fear-of-God so-to-speak. More or less. But not entirely. ( kinda paradoxical.)

When you are a lifetime --away-- from those daze, it feels less real, in some repercussional senses. A generation, fallen regime eras, a handfull of Administrations,.............
And now, 'Christopher' is even out of jail. Wow.

And the reason why they're not worried about the government coming after them, is because they know what they're saying isn't a secret... Because it never happened in the first place.

This is a really sweeping and --absolute-- statement, about something you cannot possibly be, unless you're God, ---certain--- of.

And Boyce was sentenced to federal prison for espionage... Was he not?

The U.S. legal system will send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crime , yet most people will not accept the word of scientists, decorated military officers and government officials with no interest in financial gain. Who are willing to stand before a Congressional Hearing to speak out.
But still people choose to believe that not one single person in all the history of ufology is telling the truth about an UFO/ET presence on Earth.

If this didn't make me so angry it would be funny.

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
The U.S. legal system will send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crime , yet most people will not accept the word of scientists, decorated military officers and government officials with no interest in financial gain. Who are willing to stand before a Congressional Hearing to speak out.

Then change the US legal system, that's the one with a problem, if they just accept people's testimonies as absolute truths.

But still people choose to believe that not one single person in all the history of ufology is telling the truth about an UFO/ET presence on Earth.

Even when I believe in what someone tells me, that doesn't mean that I accept it as the absolute truth, it means that I think that the person believes that what he/she says is the truth.

The problem with things like UFOs/ETs is that we really need more that people's statements, and one of the reasons is that most people's statements are not the analysis of some specialist that could examine some thing, it's mostly just their opinion about something.

If this didn't make me so angry it would be funny.

Then you are probably looking at it the wrong way.

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
If this didn't make me so angry it would be funny.

But ufology is funny...

Very funny.

I mean, where else can you see so much time and emotion being spent for so little benefit?

reply to post by IsaacKoi

Thats why Jim Moseley's Saucer Smear arose, to make sense of it all for us.

Originally posted by simone50m
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

Thats why Jim Moseley's Saucer Smear arose, to make sense of it all for us.

Yes, Saucer Smear and Jim's book are more illuminating about ufology than virtually any other publications!

A lot of the people that fall for statements by "insiders" would benefit from reading Jim's book and understanding how much of ufology is simply a joke.

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
The U.S. legal system will send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crime

That is a common argument by UFO believers and it shows their absolute ignorance of both standards of evidence and the US legal system.

Someone will not be sentenced to death simply because of an eyewitness statement of a crime. There has to be evidence that there was a crime in the first place, such as a body in the case of murder or other evidence to support the eyewitness testimony.

Further, the standards of evidence in a courtroom and in science are far different. UFO believers would do well to learn the difference unless they want to continue making such a completely stupid argument. I understand it works well when you are talking to an audience that already agrees with you but with people who know the difference, who know the argument is complete nonsense, only thing it does is expose you as ignorant.

Scientific Burden of Evidence

Legal Burden of Proof

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
yet most people will not accept the word of scientists, decorated military officers and government officials with no interest in financial gain.

Look at the other side of the coin. You will not accept the words of scientists, decorated military officers and government officials who say there is no cover-up.

Why is that?

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
But still people choose to believe that not one single person in all the history of ufology is telling the truth about an UFO/ET presence on Earth.

Someone may be telling the truth, insofar as they see it, but that does not mean they are relating an objective reality.

Originally posted by ArMaP
Then change the US legal system, that's the one with a problem, if they just accept people's testimonies as absolute truths.

They don't. It is one of the most ignorant arguments used by UFO believers.

Isaackoi:
I took my Moseley book off my shelf and have it here in front of me. I was surprised (for no logical reason) to see it is published by Prometheus Books, (2002) the Dreaded Publishing Arm of the formidable CSICOP.
"Shockingly Close To The Truth! Confessions Of A Grave Robbing Ufologist" By Jim and my late
-friend- Karl Pflock. Karl sent me this book and wrote in the front here, "For my friend (Me) who's life I hope will be brightened, by this little ufological romp. Cheers, K, 14 June '02." And then Jim pasted an autographed note with this print on it, "Keep your eye on the sky, but watch where your stepping."
Karl was planning to do another book with Jim, about Jim's --real-- life as an Indiana Jones. Entitled, "Grave Robbing For Fun and Profit".
But Karl came down with this ALS about a year and ahalf later, and it killed him by '06. His wife worked for Congressman Steven Schiff, who was aggressively going after a bunch of government Roswell Files, and then died of this terrible cancer.
Everyone down like dominoes. Geez.

Originally posted by simone50m
I took my Moseley book off my shelf and have it here in front of me. I was surprised (for no logical reason) to see it is published by Prometheus Books, (2002) the Dreaded Publishing Arm of the formidable CSICOP.

GASP!

Originally posted by simone50m
But Karl came down with this ALS about a year and ahalf later, and it killed him by '06.

Yes, quite shocking that a 62 year old man would come down with ALS, when the average age at which it is diagnosed is 55. Must be a conspiracy.

Originally posted by simone50m
His wife worked for Congressman Steven Schiff, who was aggressively going after a bunch of government Roswell Files, and then suddenly found this virulent skin cancer on him which took him out in short order.

He died in 1998, of squamous cell carcinoma, one of the most common forms of cancer, four years after he requested the files. Must be a conspiracy.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by CrashRetrieval
But still people choose to believe that not one single person in all the history of ufology is telling the truth about an UFO/ET presence on Earth.

Someone may be telling the truth, insofar as they see it, but that does not mean they are relating an objective reality.

On the other hand, you stating the above does not mean that none of the testimony relates to an objective reality.

Lets go back to evidence in court. There would be no point in hearing witness testimony if it could not relate to an objective reality. We consider witness testimony precisely because it can and often does.

To start from the position that some insider testimony is the truth is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis.

Originally posted by Pimander
Lets go back to evidence in court.

Let's not, because it is obvious that UFO believers are as ignorant as the court system as they are of science. Until you people can educate yourselves on what eyewitness testimony is as it relates to the court-system, don't bring it up. It exposes your absolute ignorance on the matter.

reply to post by CrashRetrieval


Your argument is VERY flawed.

A US prosecutor could have DNA evidence, ten VERY credible eye witnesses, video and photographic evidence, and numerous experts to testify about the evidence concerning a murder, but if they can't prove there was a victim, they would have absolutely no case at all. They would at least have to prove the victim at one time did exist, and is now missing or dead.

No one has proven there is a "victim" as far as extra terrestrial UFOs go! Every bit of your argument is based on speculation and heresay! That doesn't work for me! It doesn't work for science! And it sure as hell won't work in a court of law in the United States!

In other words: "Where's the beef?"

See ya,
Milt

Click here for more information.

reply to post by CrashRetrieval


I agree with you completely, and that's why I no longer debate the issue. The amount of information available to the public regarding UFOs is staggering. At this point, I find it to be a waste of energy to try and convince anyone. As far as I'm concerned, if someone doesn't accept the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence interacting with this planet by now, so be it. The only thing that hasn't been documented is for the U.S. government to officially go on the record and admit the reality of UFOs--and I seriously doubt that will ever happen. Personally, I believe it's time for us to move on and start answering far more interesting questions.