Welcome to Hell

Easy as pie folks, we need to stop the murdering thug muslims in najaf mosque imamshrine whatever its called right? But in doing so we can not piss off the population of regular Iraqis right? So may I suggest this simple yet effective solution....

Use the LEE HARVEY OSWALD attack method, we blow the hell out of those muslims in that shrine and blame/credit the iraqi soldiers, I mean cmon people if the warren commission can tell us that Oswald killed Kennedy with 3 shots and one of them being a Magic Bullet why cant we 40 years later make some backward ass 3rd world nation believe they killed the bad guys?

Just a thought....

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
...the warren commission can tell us that Oswald killed Kennedy with 3 shots and one of them being a Magic Bullet...

It's plausible and more than possible that Oswald could kill Kennedy with three shots from an old Italian bolt action rifle in less than six seconds, but both the "magic" bullet and the "pristine" bullet found on the gurney are stretching the truth too far.

The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq have killed more Iraqis than Americans.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq have killed more Iraqis than the Americans have.
The so called "freedom Fighters" in Iraq are the reason that Iraqis cant find a good job, dont have reliable electric service, and are scared to leave thier homes at night.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq are the ones bombing the oil pipelines which are Iraqs main source of money, thereby preventing the growth of Iraqs economy which would provide jobs for Iraqis.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq are the ones bombing the power stations thereby causing the electrical shortage in Iraq.

So whos freedom are these so called "freedom fighters" really fighting for?
The U.S. made mistakes in Iraq, of that there is no doubt. But does anyone else find it interesting that Al Sadr's top advisors are all Iranians?

Originally posted by mwm1331
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq have killed more Iraqis than Americans.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq have killed more Iraqis than the Americans have.
The so called "freedom Fighters" in Iraq are the reason that Iraqis cant find a good job, dont have reliable electric service, and are scared to leave thier homes at night.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq are the ones bombing the oil pipelines which are Iraqs main source of money, thereby preventing the growth of Iraqs economy which would provide jobs for Iraqis.
The so called "freedom fighters" in Iraq are the ones bombing the power stations thereby causing the electrical shortage in Iraq.

So whos freedom are these so called "freedom fighters" really fighting for?
The U.S. made mistakes in Iraq, of that there is no doubt. But does anyone else find it interesting that Al Sadr's top advisors are all Iranians?

where exactly are you getting your facts from? the body count project documents between 11,619-13,603 civilian deaths in iraq as a result of military intervention. i find it hard to believe there is a source claiming more than this number have died due to "freedom fighters".

www.iraqbodycount.net...

-koji K.

[edit on 20-8-2004 by koji_K]

All homicides are not murder. I have killed, but I am not a murderer.

You said you have killed, but most of the people I know that have killed the enemy in war are still to this day very trouble about killing another human being even if is in a situation of kill or be killed like war, but you talk about like nothing.

Until this day my father still remembers when he killed for the first time during war "he said is something no man can forget even if is the enemy just killing another human being because your government tells you he is your enemy."

My father in order to deal with this situation he did not turn into an alcohol or drugs like many others like him, but turn into religion for redemption, and that is how he comes to terms with this part of his life.

I imagine you must be going through a lot.


mwm1331

Just one comment, don�t you ever wonder how it is that it wasn�t until US invaded Iraq that all this attacks and bombings hare happening, actually Iraqis never had to deal with suicide bombers during Sadam, I guess this is price of freedom US has brought to their lands.

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by EastCoastKid, our soldiers are over there committing WAR CRIMES; and obviously, for the most part they don't even understand that. It's insane.

not really, read the geneva convention, what we are doing in najif is well within the law.

Namehere: CLUELESS.

Originally posted by Relentless:
On Where you were in 1991:

You still havn't answered my question.

My wings are real. Believe what you want.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Somebody out there's awful sensitive. I got a warning for asking a question.

Doesn't this smack of censorship?

Marge - Saddam kept his subjects in line through fear, brutality, and torture, which is why there were no suicide bombers in his time. However these so called freedom fighters are attempting to do the same thing. The fact is Saddam was the only thing which kept Iraq from exploding for years. His rule stopped the intercine warfare from happening by making everyone more afraid of him than of each other. While he kept the hatreds from expressing themselves they did not go away. However the U.S. is trying to give the Iraqis a country wthout intercine warfare and without a brutal dicttor. Massive changes do not though happen overnight or quickly at all.

As for the nmber of casualties how many of the deaths attributed to military intervention are the result of roadside bombs, mortar attacks and the like?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Kriz_4
[Lol, rules of warfare? Soldiers are paid to kill/murder people, I do not see why you do not understand that.

But, those "murdered" are casualties of war, so it is all fine and dandy *cough*. I really feel for the troops out there, they are in a no win situation.

All homicides are not murder. I have killed, but I am not a murderer. I think you need to speak from a basis of knowledge, instead of just ejaculating every thought that comes to mind.

You might start with a few history courses and some sociology thrown in for good measure. Without a historical perspective and a theoretical framework you sound like an idiot and, of course, we all know that can't be true.

Grady-

What this comes down to is a matter of views. Some will always argue that any form of killing reguardless of situation is murder and that is not an argument that can be won. Best to simply agree to disagree.

I understand that there are situations such as self defence, accidents, and so on. Though I understand that use and need of a military in this world I personaly do not feel that we as a world society should have to have this need. I feel that it is sad for humanity to still be in such a state. I am however not so blind to not know how things really are.

Whole thing makes me tired sometimes.

Wraith

How come folks can't understand that our form of Democracy might just not be in a particular nation's best interest? Who says Iraq wants our style of government? Iraq is a land of tribes. That's a far cry from what we have here.

The reason Germany fell into place (with the Marshall plan) so well is b/c it's institutions and culture was much like our own.

In war there is killing and there is murder. Any rational soldier, knowing the rules of engagement, knows the difference.

It's a strange thing, indeed, to know you're getting paid to kill people.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Any rational soldier, knowing the rules of engagement, knows the difference.

I was just talking about this the other day with a friend of mine. We came to the conclusion that so many of the soldiers are so young and come from such different backgrounds that they start to skew the differences between right and wrong. The tolls of war can be damaging far beyond my own imagination and having to see such carnage everyday. Rational thought can be very corrupted in that type of enviornment.

mwm1331,

I see your reasoning I understand that, in a way.

I think that the people that wants US policies and democracy along with the big American interest in Iraq are the same few that wants to profit alone with US from the control of the Iraqi oil, the rest of the country means nothing to this few but they still call themselves Iraqi majority.

Can this be true? I mean the people that wanted the liberation are the same interest groups pro Iraqi liberation base in US. Because they have business agendas in how to exploit Iraq?

And this is my opinion and something that just came in my mind.

Originally posted by build319
The tolls of war can be damaging far beyond my own imagination and having to see such carnage everyday. Rational thought can be very corrupted in that type of enviornment.

This war, like Vietnam, has taken an especially violent toll on both the minds and bodies our men & women serving there. It truly grieves me.

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Things are out of hand. Here are some reports:

Fierce Fighting in Iraq's Najaf, Sadr Defiant
By Michael Georgy
Reuters

Thursday 19 August 2004

NAJAF, Iraq - Fierce fighting raged in the Iraqi city of Najaf on Thursday where a radical Shi'ite cleric spurned a final order from the prime minister to disarm his militia or face an attack on his sanctuary in a holy shrine.

U.S. aircraft and tanks pounded the area around Najaf's Imam Ali Mosque where Moqtada al-Sadr and his Mehdi militia have holed up. Thick smoke poured into the sky, dozens of explosions shook the old city and automatic rifle crackled through the air.
www.truthout.org...


Confusion surrounds Najaf mosque
Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 11:00 AM EDT (1500 GMT)

NAJAF, Iraq (CNN) -- An Iraqi Interior Minister spokesman said Iraqi police had seized control of the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, but the U.S. military said the claim is false.

U.S. and Iraqi forces had surrounded the mosque -- one of the holiest shrines in Shiite Islam -- in an effort to pressure fighters, loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who were holed up in the complex.

Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman Sabah Kadhim announced Friday afternoon that Iraqi police entered the mosque "without a shot being fired" and found hundreds of armed men who were eager to surrender to them.

But U.S. officials at the Pentagon said there is no sense that al-Sadr's people have pulled out of the mosque, and that U.S. and Iraqi forces still surround it.
www.cnn.com...



from the August 20, 2004 edition

A journey into the epicenter of the Sadr standoff

By Scott Baldauf

NAJAF, IRAQ � Technically speaking, what we were about to do was more than risky. It was foolish. But we told ourselves that it was a risk for a cause.
Thursday, several journalists and I began organizing a delegation to enter the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf.

We had two goals: First, to seek what may be the final comments of the top leadership of Moqtada al-Sadr's Shiite militia, the Mahdi Army, who were taking shelter in the holy site. Second, we wanted to help two colleagues, freelance photographer Thorne Anserson and freelance reporter Philip Robertson, get out of the shrine after they had spent a harrowing three days at the epicenter of this armed showdown.

Between us and the shrine were two US military checkpoints, countless snipers, and hundreds of Mahdi Army fighters who had already committed themselves to die for their cause.
csmonitor.com...



Sadr loyalists sing their defiance and denounce Allawi
By Adrian Blomfield at the Imam Ali shrine
(Filed: 20/08/2004)


A rocket launcher slung over his shoulder, a Mahdi army militiaman steps out on to the rubble-strewn main street of Najaf's commercial district and breaks into song.

Following his lead, other fighters loyal to the Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr spill out in twos and threes from doorways of shuttered shops, shaking rifles over their heads and stamping their feet as they join in the chorus.

"We are the soldiers of the Mahdi," they sing, apparently oblivious to the shells exploding nearby or the American tanks parked up a side road farther along the street.
www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2004/08/20/wirq120.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/08/20/ixnewstop.html

[edit on 19-09-2003 by EastCoastKid]

Here's an excellent analysis piece. It's good because it gets into the Arab frame of mind. You can't assess this whole situation correctly if you're transposing the western perspective on Iraq and its people. I hope it helps.

Desecration as Tactic of Imperial Conquest
Holy Places
By DIANE CHRISTIAN

"The holy shrine will remain safe from all attacks that could possibly harm its sacredness."

Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Allawi, about the Najaf Mosque

Despoiling holy places is often a deliberate tactic of war. In ancient Sumer, Iraq 5000 years ago, regime change was often reported by the phrase 'the holy shrine was destroyed and the city overrun.' When Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem in the sixth century B.C. he, like the later Roman conqueror Trajan, carried off Temple treasures. When the Greeks entered the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem a few centuries later, they slaughtered a hog in the Jewish temple's most sacred place, the Holy of Holies. In the French Revolution a naked whore was placed on the high altar of the Cathedral of Notre Dame. Osama Bin Laden deliberately brought down the twin towers which he identified as shrines to the American god-money.
www.counterpunch.org...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Osama Bin Laden deliberately brought down the twin towers which he identified as shrines to the American god-money.
www.counterpunch.org...

[humor]
Does he listen to Nine Inch Nails? Its kinda funny that a spoiled gazillionaire thinks the way he does.
[/humor]

Actually, I really like alot of these articles you post ECK. Gives you a good idea on whats going on, on both sides. This is really the only true way to reach some sort of understanding.

[edit on 20-8-2004 by build319]

I find that funny, that bin-ladden target the towers for the meaning in the American market, but bin-ladden himself and his family members had very profitable ties with the American money also. By the way his family still has ties to the American money as today.

So I don't get it.

Originally posted by marg6043
You said you have killed, but most of the people I know that have killed the enemy in war are still to this day very trouble about killing another human being even if is in a situation of kill or be killed like war, but you talk about like nothing.

Well, what do you want, a dozen weeping icons. In some post somewhere on this subject I state that I pay a price for my service, but that it is a burden I willingly bear to help ensure the freedom of you and your progeny. Emotional detachment is a normal part of dealing with trauma. I hope this clarifies the situation.