Welcome to Hell

This is madness, pure and simple. Attacking the holy city of Najaf has got to be as stupid an action as we have taken in Iraq yet. This group of Neo Con pin-head thugs running the war from Washington are beyond STUPID. I can't wait till they're kicked out of office and sent back to hell where they belong.

Human shields pour into holy city

17.08.2004
1.30pm - By DONALD MACINTYRE in Najaf
Around 2000 self-styled "human shields" poured into Najaf yesterday to join Shiite insurgents holed up in the gold-domed mosque, as fresh battles in the holy city prevented a quick victory by US and Iraqi forces.

US forces backed by tanks exchanged fire with the followers of Moqtada al Sadr, the rebel Shiite cleric whose supporters barricaded inside the Imam Ali shrine were joined by the unarmed but defiant "human shields."

But as the crackle of machine gun fire echoed through the old city, armed Iraqi police turned their ire against journalists in the city.

Last night they fired warning shots at and over the Sea of Najaf hotel after arresting a correspondent from Al Arabiya in what appeared to be a continued campaign of harassment against journalists in Najaf.

As journalists protested during the arrest, a police lieutenant said above the hubbub: "We are going to open fire on this hotel. We are going to smash it up. I will kill you all. You did this all to yourselves."
www.nzherald.co.nz...

We're turning our soldiers into murderers. This insanity has GOT to STOP!

Take a deep breath and get a grip. Putting the political question aside. Do you believe in holy cities? Have you noticed that the enemy is using their holy sites as havens and that they are launching attacks from their mosques?

There is no need to panic. Everything is going to be okay.

Stupid yes, but every other damn City in the Middle East is a holy city. The whole reason the US has UBL after us so badly is cause he considers ALL of Saudi Arabia a holy land. I'm excluding stupid religous jokes from this to not get off topic but they definately consider that who region holy property of theirs. Its pretty much where all this conflict stems from.

Speaking strickly on military tactics. regardless of where a enemy attacks from, it's a target. Mosque, Vaticant, White House, where ever. It is no surprise that Najaf is in the crosshairs now. I wouldn't have shown this much restraint, if it were me calling the shots.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Take a deep breath and get a grip. Putting the political question aside. Do you believe in holy cities? Have you noticed that the enemy is using their holy sites as havens and that they are launching attacks from their mosques?

There is no need to panic. Everything is going to be okay.

Uh, what choice do they have?

Here's the road we're heading down. Not exactly what we had hoped for.

Najaf Prompts Talk of Secession Among Iraqi Politicians

by Lisa Ashkenaz Croke
TheNewStandard
From the disrupted Iraqi National Conference in Baghdad to the low-key threat of secession from Shi'ite leaders in southern Iraq, the entire country's future may be determined by events in the holy city of Najaf.

The National Conference, where 1,300 Iraqi delegates were to meet for three days and elect the 100-member National Council, was extended for a day to accommodate an attempt by several delegates to meet with rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in Najaf.

The conference opened Sunday to several delegates' insistence that the crises in Najaf be immediately addressed. One delegate, Yahya Mussawi, rushed the speaker's podium.

"It is time that you heard us and we ask that military operations stop in Najaf immediately and dialogue take place," he shouted before chief conference organizer Fuad Massum had him forced down, according to Agence France-Presse. AFP notes that Mussawi participated in efforts this spring to thwart Sadr's uprising.
www.antiwar.com...

Go team!

They could adhere to the rule of war, and not use religious sites for staging combat.

Such cowardly actions obvious are forcing their antagonists (us) to treat their holy sites, not as sanctuaries, but as forward HQs.

Any adult can see that this shows a deep distain for their own culture and religion.

I'd probably give them a 12 hr ceasefire to withdraw, before opening up with increasingly heavy ordnance.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Take a deep breath and get a grip. Putting the political question aside. Do you believe in holy cities? Have you noticed that the enemy is using their holy sites as havens and that they are launching attacks from their mosques?

There is no need to panic. Everything is going to be okay.

You were in teh military so i will ask you this. I have several friends in a Swat team and we have often discussed tactics. We all agree that the Militents are using the holy sites to force the USA to attack them thus insiting more distain from the public.

Instead of charging into the mosque guns blazing is it not an option to set up snipers arround the mosque. Give them 16 hours to pull out and if not then starve them out? Poping off anyone who tries to bring them supplies or who tries to sneek out? It's a longer patience game I know, but you put less people at risk and appease the local population by as littel damage as possible.

Wraith

[edit on 18-8-2004 by wraith30]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

They could adhere to the rule of war, and not use religious sites for staging combat.

Such cowardly actions obvious are forcing their antagonists (us) to treat their holy sites, not as sanctuaries, but as forward HQs.

Any adult can see that this shows a deep distain for their own culture and religion.

I'd probably give them a 12 hr ceasefire to withdraw, before opening up with increasingly heavy ordnance.

That's a programmed load of horseshyte if I ever heard one.

Rule of war? Why don't you write HEIR Rumsfeld a letter explaining him what the rules of war are. He doesn't know the concept. Because of that and his incideously wicked culture, our soldiers are over there committing WAR CRIMES; and obviously, for the most part they don't even understand that. It's insane.

Would you mind telling us what your experience with WAR is?

The problem with armchair soldiers back here in the mainland is that it's really easy to say what you'd do.. when you have absolutely NO concept of the Arab mind and culture. It's a completely different world. YOu cannot transpose western values and views UPON them! When will the western world ever wake up to that? Until we do, we will FAIL miserably in Iraq.

I'll go one further, before you sit there and talk about what you'd do,; at least, try and imagine the Red Dawn scenario. What would you do if the USA was invaded by say, China and Russia and they were occupying this country against our will. IMAGINE IT. Don't tell me it can't happen. This is HYPOTHETICAL. WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO KICK THE INVADERS OUT? RIght, we'd be FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Well, how the hell do you think the Iraqis feel? THINK ABOUT IT!

I don't suppose you Bush supporters even understand that before the Gulf War, even after the Gulf War, most Iraqis were very pro-American. George W. Bush has blown that to hell just like everything else he's touched.

He's an idiot.

Originally posted by wraith30
Instead of charging into the mosque guns blazing is it not an option to set up snipers arround the mosque. Give them 16 hours to pull out and if not then starve them out? Poping off anyone who tries to bring them supplies or who tries to sneek out? It's a longer patience game I know, but you put less people at risk and appease the local population by as littel damage as possible.

That's a valid question. I don't have the answer because I am not there. I appreciate the nod, but actually my having been in the service doesn't give me special insight into all these matters.

I would only point out that police tactics and military tactics differ. The scenario you offer might very well be on the table and there are good tactical reasons why it isn't viable.

There comes a time when we must rely on the experience and judgement those who are charged with the task.

Religion is a life based way of thinking for many people around the world. Being in a religous building means to many that they are SAFE from harm,

Good post Eastcoastkid:

"I'll go one further, before you sit there and talk about what you'd do,; at least, try and imagine the Red Dawn scenario. What would you do if the USA was invaded by say, China and Russia and they were occupying this country against our will. IMAGINE IT. Don't tell me it can't happen. This is HYPOTHETICAL. WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO KICK THE INVADERS OUT? RIght, we'd be FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Well, how the hell do you think the Iraqis feel? THINK ABOUT IT!"

This is from Juan Cole's web site:

Readers sometimes complain to me that Muslims seem to have lots of holy cities and lots of mosques, so is Najaf really all that special? O.K., here are the holy cities in order of holiness: Mecca, Medinah, Jerusalem, Najaf, Karbala. Najaf and Karbala are especially holy to Shiites. There are other holy sites and cities, of course, but they are mostly sacred because of association with later saints. The five I just mentioned are sacred because of their direct association with the Prophet Muhammad, his son-in-law and vicar, Ali, and his grandson, Husain.

The Shrine of Ali is a tomb, and although it has a mosque attached to it, it is not just a mosque. It is a Shrine. Like the shrine of the Prophet Muhammad in Medinah or the shrine of Imam Husain in Karbala, it is a sacred resting place of holy remains. A lot of mosques could be damaged with impunity. These shrines cannot.

The ignoramus Marines in Najaf clearly don't know all this, and since they don't know it they don't have any business making military policy there. They have endangered all Americans profoundly by potentially spurring a whole new wave of Shiite terrorism against us, recalling the bad old days of the early to mid-1980s (when some of our present allies in Iraq, like al-Da`wa and SCIRI were attacking US targets like the embassy in Kuwait or helping take Americans captive in Beirut).

If people want to be human shields then by all means give them what they want with some 50 cal meat grinders...

Can somebody explain to me what the enemy that US is fighting in Iraq is? Because the only foreigners in the Middle East are anybody that is not from Arab descendant so by what rights do US go to a foreign land and target enemies.

Are they mine enemy are they your enemy whose enemy are they.

I am going to tell you whom enemies are they,

The enemies of bush policies in the middle east

The enemies of the poppet government in Iraq

The enemies of the big corporation that US took to Iraq

The enemies of anybody form US that does not submit to US wishes.

Yeah!!!!!!!!lets target all of them they are the enemies so let kill them in their lands and in their shrines so we can make a statement.

US does not give a darn about the Arab world. All it wants if their oil.

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Religion is a life based way of thinking for many people around the world. Being in a religous building means to many that they are SAFE from harm,

Well, if that's what they think, they're about to be disillusioned. The US has been very patient and respectful of religious matters, but when the enemy abuses his own shrine, then the rules change.

What is all this touchy-feely stuff for the enemy. Don't you know that these people would cut your heart out if they had a chance? Just how touchy feely was the 9/11 attack?

I think US television sanitized the images of 9/11 too much. What we are left with looks like a Hollywood disaster movie we've seen too many times. We should see those people jumping to their deaths, their splattered bodies on the pavement. We should listen to the testimony of the survivors over and over again about the horror they lived through.

Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out!

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Religion is a life based way of thinking for many people around the world. Being in a religous building means to many that they are SAFE from harm,

I think US television sanitized the images of 9/11 too much. What we are left with looks like a Hollywood disaster movie we've seen too many times. We should see those people jumping to their deaths, their splattered bodies on the pavement. We should listen to the testimony of the survivors over and over again about the horror they lived through.

I agree with you that TV images are really restricted views of the true situation.

How long has this war on terror existed? How much of the true situation has been "sanitized" by TV.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Kriz_4]

What if it was America. That is an outstanding question for us to ask, and it really could happen some day.

1. I would neither give nor expect mercy. In this respect I do not blame the Iraqis for any desperate lengths they may go to to fight us. I just think they're taking a big risk by gambling on our unwillingness to hurt the enemy's feelings.

2. I would exploit the enemy's weaknesses. I do not consider it cowardly. I consider it reasonable. Again, it's not wrong to hide in the mosque, just dangerous. It's not wrong for us to go in either though. In the end, the undecided population is either going to fight eventually or not. If this doesn't bring it to a head, something else will, so let's just get the uprising started and kill em now.

3. I would try very hard to hit the enemy at his home and get this war out of mine. The enemy would be very smart to do whatever it takes to kill me before I find a way.

4. I would use any weapons available to me- especially certain molds which are relatively easy to grow and which are effective biological weapons. Again the enemy had better do whatever it takes to beat me, because I'm not gonna pull any punches.

5. I'm going to need weapons from outside sources. I'd probably buy them from duplicitous first-world nations like France and Russia. The enemy had better put those nations on lockdown so I will run out of ammo.


OK, thats what America needs to do, now get crackin Bush.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

What is all this touchy-feely stuff for the enemy. Don't you know that these people would cut your heart out if they had a chance? Just how touchy feely was the 9/11 attack?

Grady, since you are a mental health expert, please try to find a definition for this gap in logic here. You might as well have said "just how touchy feely was Ghengiz-Khan" or "Charlemagne". Same level of relevance (or rather, lack thereof). Iraqis didn't have a part in 9/11, and in particular those iraqis who are now holed up in the mosque.

I think US television sanitized the images of 9/11 too much. What we are left with looks like a Hollywood disaster movie we've seen too many times. We should see those people jumping to their deaths, their splattered bodies on the pavement. We should listen to the testimony of the survivors over and over again about the horror they lived through.

You sound like a person who needs to take this out on somebody, which is really scary. All right, the Saudis and the Egyptians piloted the 9/11 planes, so I'm going to pulverize sombody who is their cousins, let's see... Where is my encyclopedia Britannica... Here! There are a lot of Arabs in Iraq! Let's go get them mofos!

Your nation never fought on its own land for the past 100 years, and you just have this lack of resilience. I'm sorry to say this, but that's true. You snap. Part of the reason Europe is not with you on this one is because they spent (unfortunately) too much time fighting in each other's respective backyards. It finally produced some common sense in these people. They don't just go any longer on an impulse to blow somebody's brain out when they are having a bad day.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO KICK THE INVADERS OUT? RIght, we'd be FREEDOM FIGHTERS. Well, how the hell do you think the Iraqis feel? THINK ABOUT IT!

I don't suppose you Bush supporters even understand that before the Gulf War, even after the Gulf War, most Iraqis were very pro-American. George W. Bush has blown that to hell just like everything else he's touched.

He's an idiot.

What about the average man on the street who wanted to take their country back from Saddam? I really don't think you can make broad statements about the Iraqi's in this context, it doesn't apply to all of them, some of them do want us there, but certainly not the militants.

As for the Holy sites, rational people would see it is not the coalition jeapardizing them it is the fundamentalists using them as shields that is the root of the problem.

And just for my own curiosity, if you care to answer, EastCoastKid - did you earn those wings?