Fox News Viewers Threaten Atheists Over 9/11 Cross Lawsuit

reply to post by Whatsreal

The cross for its historical value?? Do you have any historical education??

Actually that's what I studied in college

The cross has been the reason for more death and destruction than all the terrorist acts over the last 100 years combined.

I agree. I also agree it has absolutely nothing to do with either this thread nor the cross being erected at the WTC Memorial. THAT cross, that specific cross, has a specific history to a specific city where a specific incident occured to create that specific historical connection.

Did you read the article? Do you comprehend the thread? No? Didn't think so judging by your replies.

Now before all you bible thumpers attack me with saying the the cross represents faith and love... it doesn't.

Well, as I've said, I'm not a Christian. That being said (again) I shall point out to you that Religion it's self does not create hatred, violence or inequality. People do. People behind the religions, people behind the money, people behind the power, people behind the governments. Religious teachings have never hurt anyone, a Bible or a Koran has never grown legs and assaulted a non-believer.

Love them even if they aren't Christians, even if they think the idea of god is a silly fairy tale.

Indeed. Except it has nothing to do with the thread or article in question. There is a cross. It is a historical artifact. One Atheist group doesn't like it, because they think it's a religious symbol and only there for that purpose.

Originally posted by Whatsreal
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

The cross for its historical value?? Do you have any historical education??

The cross has been the reason for more death and destruction than all the terrorist acts over the last 100 years combined.

Crusades ring a bell....
First Crusade 1095–1099
Crusade of 1101
Norwegian Crusade 1107–1110
Second Crusade 1147–1149
Third Crusade 1187–1192
Fourth Crusade 1202–1204
Albigensian Crusade
Children's Crusade
Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
Eighth Crusade 1270
Ninth Crusade 1271–1272

lets not forget the spanish inquisition ( and no not the musical mel brooks version)

oh, how about the conquistadors

what happened to all the gnostics in the early half of the first millennium of our common era (didn't the pope have them.... erased? )

I believe the French had problems with Roman Catholics and Protestants fighting each other.

The holy roman empire did some conquering

So the historical context behind the cross to people of other religions, or even people who view Christ differently from each other is DEATH and FEAR....

Now before all you bible thumpers attack me with saying the the cross represents faith and love... it doesn't. It was a torture device used to display people who were found "guilty" of one thing or another by the Romans in charge at the time. And the most famous person to die on a cross was a Jew ( i love reminding our christian zealots of that fact ).

And if you really believe Christianity is all about faith and love, then love your brother, love your neighbor and have faith in their inherent goodness. Love them even if they aren't Christians, even if they think the idea of god is a silly fairy tale. THAT WOULD BE ACTING LIKE A REAL PERSON OF FAITH AND LOVE.

you mean 1000 years not 100?

and the jews were instrumental in his death along with the romans, and it started a revolution.

the christians took that object of oppression and death and made it theirs, like a word only certain people can use.


did you mention the first 500yrs of roman persecution?

Originally posted by Whatsreal
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Now before all you bible thumpers attack me with saying the the cross represents faith and love... it doesn't. It was a torture device used to display people who were found "guilty" of one thing or another by the Romans in charge at the time. And the most famous person to die on a cross was a Jew ( i love reminding our christian zealots of that fact ).

Disagree. When something becomes a symbol of something, it represents what the person making it a symbol wants it to symbolize. For instance, and as a counterpoint to your history lesson; one of the uses for the swastika prior to the Nazi party was in Buddhism. Swastika comes from the Indian word svasti, and means good fortune, luck and well being. Buddhism used it as a symbol of auspiciousness and good fortune. These days though, most people see it as a symbol of hate.

Symbols change over time to represent what is placed upon them, not what they once were.

That's not to say that there are not those that hide behind the symbol that is the cross (or any other for that matter) in order to spew hate in the name of a deity who really ought to be able to speak for itself if it's that powerful....I'm getting off topic though. Two hours of sleep in four days. Who decided babies should be so noisy?

reply to post by RedGod

I'm getting off topic though. Two hours of sleep in four days. Who decided babies should be so noisy?

sounds like you have a budding little atheist on your hands!

hey just kidding!

eta; really sorry, couldn't help it. my daughter is 20 now and i been through that.

but you are right,

Disagree. When something becomes a symbol of something, it represents what the person making it a symbol wants it to symbolize. For instance, and as a counterpoint to your history lesson; one of the uses for the swastika prior to the Nazi party was in Buddhism. Swastika comes from the Indian word svasti, and means good fortune, luck and well being. Buddhism used it as a symbol of auspiciousness and good fortune. These days though, most people see it as a symbol of hate. Symbols change over time to represent what is placed upon them, not what they once were.

that really messed up a pretty good band, kula shaker, for using it as it once was.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I understand what you're saying, but nowhere does it say that the Christians have more rights than any other religion or absence of. Technically if the Christians can to that then the Muslims should be able to put up their symbol for their religion. Although, we all know that, that would be unacceptable.

And as far as you saying that we, Atheists, are bringing grief on our selves, sorry if we believe in equality. And to some athiests bashing religion may be a "sport", but that's minimal to the crusades, rape, fatwas, etc.

Is the WTC Memorial, where this cross is located, on the property site of WTC 1 & 2? If so, can't the owner of the property allow whatever symbol they want on there no matter what any hate-filled, filth spewing people say?

If it isn't on that property, and if the property is now owned by the city of New York, then I guess a judge will decide if it's allowed or not.

/TOA

Originally posted by Whatsreal
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

The cross for its historical value?? Do you have any historical education??

The cross has been the reason for more death and destruction than all the terrorist acts over the last 100 years combined.

I'll bet you that Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Kim Jong-il, and Ho Chi Minh have killed, or had killed, more people in 100 years than Christians have in over 1000.

/TOA

reply to post by The Old American

Is the WTC Memorial, where this cross is located, on the property site of WTC 1 & 2? If so, can't the owner of the property allow whatever symbol they want on there no matter what any hate-filled, filth spewing people say?

It's on private property. And the Museum is owned by the developers of the site. The issue with Atheist is they seem to have found a loophole: When 9/11 occured a fund was set aside for the Port Authority of New york to give grants to the area for certain developments. Naturally one of those grants was given to the Museum at the 9/11 site to assist with funds. The Grant only covered a partial portion of the cost, the rest was done through donation. But, because the Government gave SOME money ..... it's instantly a separation of church and state issue......

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by The Old American

 

Is the WTC Memorial, where this cross is located, on the property site of WTC 1 & 2? If so, can't the owner of the property allow whatever symbol they want on there no matter what any hate-filled, filth spewing people say?

It's on private property. And the Museum is owned by the developers of the site. The issue with Atheist is they seem to have found a loophole: When 9/11 occured a fund was set aside for the Port Authority of New york to give grants to the area for certain developments. Naturally one of those grants was given to the Museum at the 9/11 site to assist with funds. The Grant only covered a partial portion of the cost, the rest was done through donation. But, because the Government gave SOME money ..... it's instantly a separation of church and state issue......

So the government gave them a grant, and said, "Here's cash. Build a memorial."What the atheists have a problem with here is not the 1st Amendment, but the 4th. I'm considering federal aid to go back to school. Am I not allowed then to take any religion courses? Freedom and liberty for most, huh?

BTW: As to the subject of the original story, it's shameful that people calling themselves Christians are behaving like that. It makes it much harder for the true followers of Christ to be taken seriously, and causes vile filth to be spewed at them like some on this thread have done.

Seriously, there's a couple of people on this thread that may want to consider therapy. I don't know what happened to them in their childhood by someone pretending to be a Christian, but they really need help.

/TOA

Originally posted by Annee


Its an attack on Atheists and other beliefs by Christians - - - if symbols of other beliefs are not included.

Your kidding right? I fail to see how this can be considered an "attack". Its just a memorial. There is absolutely no reason to take it down, other than the fact that some PC fanatics are "offended". A childish display of playground politics..."Well, if we don't have one, then, they shouldn't either". Boo-hoo.

As for the American Atheists, check eBay see if they have a life for sale.

Something seriously wrong with some of our religious folk in this world, condoning rape and murder, my ... I'm sure their God will be proud. I guess they forgot their own "Thou shall not kill" seriously, I have nothing wrong with religion but really it's got such a terrible name for itself lately ... or rather, since forever. So much blood on its hands more than anything in existance.

Face it people, religion as caused more wars, more bloodshed than anything ever and for those that say it was a long time ago, times have changed. Look around, doesn't look that way. "You don't believe so I'll stone you/chop off your head/rape you/insert whatever else that these nut jobs have come up with.

Sounds more like a mental hospital to me or rather, sounds like I'm watching SAW or something a long those lines. Fekin children.

They should leave the cross there and as other people have stated, add other symbolism aswell or is one better than the other?

Edit: This is not aimed at religious people as a whole. This is aimed at those nut jobs that believe it's ok to murder/whatever because someone is a nonbeliever.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by The Old American

 

Is the WTC Memorial, where this cross is located, on the property site of WTC 1 & 2? If so, can't the owner of the property allow whatever symbol they want on there no matter what any hate-filled, filth spewing people say?

It's on private property. And the Museum is owned by the developers of the site. The issue with Atheist is they seem to have found a loophole: When 9/11 occured a fund was set aside for the Port Authority of New york to give grants to the area for certain developments. Naturally one of those grants was given to the Museum at the 9/11 site to assist with funds. The Grant only covered a partial portion of the cost, the rest was done through donation. But, because the Government gave SOME money ..... it's instantly a separation of church and state issue......

So the government gave them a grant, and said, "Here's cash. Build a memorial."What the atheists have a problem with here is not the 1st Amendment, but the 4th. I'm considering federal aid to go back to school. Am I not allowed then to take any religion courses? Freedom and liberty for most, huh?

BTW: As to the subject of the original story, it's shameful that people calling themselves Christians are behaving like that. It makes it much harder for the true followers of Christ to be taken seriously, and causes vile filth to be spewed at them like some on this thread have done.

Seriously, there's a couple of people on this thread that may want to consider therapy. I don't know what happened to them in their childhood by someone pretending to be a Christian, but they really need help.

/TOA

edit on 12-8-2011 by The Old American because: (no reason given)

Just because someone doesn't share your viewpoint on religion they should seek therapy? Ok Nice to see people that don't want religion forced on the public are mentally ill. Did you ever stop to think that just putting a cross there spits on the religions of the other people that died there? If you were Jewish would you want a cross marking your grave? If you are going to put one symbol up then you have put one up for every religion. Sorry to the narrow minded Christians but a cross just doesn't cover everything. And as far as therapy goes it's the people that hear disembodied voices telling them what to do that needs therapy.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by kozmo
This is the third thread today where people have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how the Constitution works. In this case, it is a complete misunderstanding of the First Ammendment, more specifically the Establishment Clause. As a public service to those members completely misinformed and as a friendly effort to help them from making complete fools of themselves, I'll do my best to explain it.

I go by cases won in court.

More has been established by cases setting precedence - - - then the argument you always present.

Good! So, you've read my other posts on the topic... which means you are already aware that I have stated repeatedly that the Constitution has attacked by judicial activism and legislative criminality. Ergo, you going by precedent indicates your support of the continued attacks against our rights and the criminality of the courts and the legislature.

At least we can all see your position on the matter. Thanks for clarifying.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Chance321
Will there be someone there with a gun forceing people to look at the cross? If not, I don't see the problem, if you don't want to look at it, don't.

Dumbest argument ever. And someone always uses it.

The cost of putting this cross in is being paid by government tax dollars. That violates separation of church and state.

I have the right not to pay for a religious symbol.

You STILL don't get it! There is NO separation of church and state anywhere in the Constitution - NO WHERE! The only references to religion occur in the First Ammendment and states that Congress can make no law establishing a national religion and that Congress can make no law that infringes upon the free expression there of. No where does it say that the government must recuse itself of anything religious. Only intolerant zealots find ways to twist the meaning of the Constitution so that it fits their sensibilities without ever realizing that in their zeal to do so, they are trampling on the First Ammendment rights of others. It is a rather hypocritical approach to interpreting the meaning of the First Ammendment. I find it ironic that these same liberal asshats will use the same ammendment to exercise their free speech to offend people.

See i have no issue with this really, doesn't affect me personally and as for the comments, well religion unfortunately brings out the worst in people when tensions rise.


As for this comment below

Originally posted by BoneMosaic
If you're Aetheist, then you shouldn't care either way. I mean what If a lot of the people who died there were christian?

But what if they were not?

I remember hearing all over the news and web that this was not just an attack on America but on the west and the world in general, I remember them saying there were even Muslims in the building so they were killing their own people and so and so forth.... every colour, creed and religion was inside those towers.

What if the "majority" inside were not Christian?

Why shouldn't every faith that lost people have their own sign or symbol planted/laid/erected at the site?

Why should a cross come to mark the tragedy?

In fact, I think all.... or none.

Why even bring religion in to this tragedy?

Originally posted by DrChuck

Originally posted by Annee


Its an attack on Atheists and other beliefs by Christians - - - if symbols of other beliefs are not included.

Your kidding right?

Yes - I'm kidding.

It was in response to a Christian claiming Atheists were attacking Christian belief.

Originally posted by DrChuck
There is absolutely no reason to take it down, other than the fact that some PC fanatics are "offended". A childish display of playground politics..."Well, if we don't have one, then, they shouldn't either". Boo-hoo.

There is absolutely reason to protest/fight - - make public knowledge via legal means - - - when a specific religion gets preference.

I'll just ignore the rest of your childish rants.

Originally posted by youngathiest
Muslims should be able to put up their symbol for their religion. Although, we all know that, that would be unacceptable.

Why?

I do not find it unacceptable for a Muslim symbol to be included.

Muslims died in the attack too.

A terrorist is a terrorist. They can be from any belief. Just because this group claim to be Muslim - - does not make Muslim's terrorists.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by DrChuck
There is absolutely no reason to take it down, other than the fact that some PC fanatics are "offended". A childish display of playground politics..."Well, if we don't have one, then, they shouldn't either". Boo-hoo.

There is absolutely reason to protest/fight - - make public knowledge via legal means - - - when a specific religion gets preference.

I'll just ignore the rest of your childish rants.

This is nothing but a frivolous lawsuit making a big ordeal out of nothing. What reason is there to protest? A religion is not receiving preferential treatment it is being exercised. Not EVERY RELIGION needs to be represented EVERY SINGLE time. Your asking for a serious waste of resources and money if you expect every religion to be represented every time a cross, star, or an atom go up. So every time a church is built in a city should a mosque, a temple or a atom thingy be built alongside it? Because I can tell you right now churches way outnumber and outrepresent all the other religious institutions.

A grants was given to a group of people that decided an artifact of the 9/11 attacks go up, and it just so happens to be in a shape of a cross. So what? Just because they used government money doesn't mean anything, it was given to them so they can use it as they see fit. I went to college on a free ride from grants, and guess what? I put some of that money on an offering plate in a church. I also used some of that money to buy a Bible.

Annee I understand and applaud your viewpoint, but seriously you can't accommodate everyone all the time.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Sweetness Incorporated, you took the words out of my mouth. *(Sweetness Inc. was a local "christian band" that played at my church when growing up - St. Thomas Moore in Centennial CO - St. Thomas Moore was famous btw, for his inquisition skills, if you know what I mean - there was also a bar attached to the church - I swear to God - called The Padre where you could get bombed on a Tues. night while watching local christian entertainment - I miss the late 70's early 80's.

...sounds like a helluva place...

...remember the bu'bawl discussion?... i think the same applies to this debate... folks that are so easily offended by THEIR perception of symbology, shouldnt leave their house without a bag over their head... maybe a couple, in case one gets a hole in it...