The best Dogfighting aircraft: SU-37 * F-35 * Rafale * Eurofighter * Gripen *

When you mention the F-35A and C getting TVC you raise another question for me. Can the F-35B vector its thrust while in forward flight? I've seen videos of it transitioning from horizontal to vertical and the way the nozzle works does'n't appear to lend itself particularly well to what the Harrier crews call 'Viffing'?

None of the F-35 variants caan use thrust vectoring in regular flight. Even if the F-35 does get thrust vectoring, the F-35b/c do no have an internal cannon, one must be installed replacing a JDAm/AMRAAm bay or carried on an external pod. The JSF will never be much of a dogfighter, which is a real big shame.

No the F-35B can only use it for STOVL.

However the F-35A and F-35C are most likely to get the 3D thrust-vectoring engines.

Here is an excerpt from Janes All the World's Aircraft (10-Mar-2003):

"Power Plant
One 177 kN (40,000 lb) class (111 kN; 16,000 lb St dry thrust) Pratt & Whitney F135 (formerly JSF119-PW-611; F119 derivative) turbofan. Axisymmetric (thrust-vectoring) exhaust nozzle on USAF and US Navy -611C versions. Rolls-Royce three-bearing swivel-duct nozzle on -611S version to deflect thrust downwards for STOVL, plus a Rolls-Royce engine-driven fan behind pit and a bleed air reaction control valve in each wingroot to provide stability at low speeds. For F-35B, total vertical lift of 173 kN (39,000 lb st) comprises some 40 per cent from main nozzle, 48 per cent from fan and 12 per cent from reaction control valves. F-35A has in-flight refuelling receptacle on spine; US Navy specifies retractable probe on starboard side."

Air-to-air wise, I would rate it just behind the F-22, it will incorporate stealth, the AN/APG-81 AESA Radar, and the AIM-120D, not to mention the AIM-9X with JHMCS. I would not underestimate this aircraft, at all.

The F-35B and F-35C won't have an internal cannon, but they can be fitted with an external cannon.

[edit on 12-9-2004 by Hockeyguy567]

The F-35 can only carry TWO AMRAAM missiles (not even two sidewinders), no thrust vectoring and high wing loadin properties. The only reason the F-35 has a-a missiles is for self-defense, bu its basically an attack plane, should be called A-35A/c or AV-35B

Interesting discussion which i have enjoyed reading.

Anyway, to the point of my post.

It's totally wrong to say the Typhoon has no gun. As has been said before the Typhoon has a perfectly good cannon installed and it is only RAF Typhoons that won't have this supported. Although this probably looks like a stupid decision, in reality it is probably a pretty good call by the RAF. The Ministry of Defence were being hugely squeezed to find cost savings in their budget, and decided that cannons were a pretty easy saving as they haven't been used all that much in AA combat recently. naturally the RAF weren't keen on this but had very little option but to go along with it.

I would suggest that it is no coincidence that after exploring all of the opions for replacing the cannon, the RAF concluded that it was actually cheaper to keep the cannon in the plane than replace it with appropriate ballast. This was always going to be the case with Tranche 1, but it now seems it may well be the case for all future buys. Strange don't you think? It seems that the cheapest way to replace the cannon on the Typhoon is to.. well, keep the cannon. Sure it isn't being 'supported' but what the hell does that mean? All the software and symbology is still there, it will still be perfcetly possible for RAF pilots to simulate cannon shots in mock dogfighting, and all RAF pilots will still be trained in the principles of A2A marksmanship. The only thing RAF Typhoons won't have is ammunition for the cannon. A pretty vital component you might say? Well indeed, but it seems that Tornados might just happen to use the same cannon, in fact they might actually take the guns from Tornado F3's and fit them to the Typhoons. Either way it adds uo to the same result.

Typhoon+cannon+ammunition = a non story. Let it lie. It's a typical UK civil service fudge. Nothing more.

The helmet mounted sight confusion may well be just that. I believe the Tranche 3 introduction is probably for the full monty, helmet mounted display (all the FLIR imagery and NV integration).

Cheers.

Badger

For standard missions it carries 2 AIM-9X and 2 AIM-120D AMRAAMs, and it has the capability to carry 4 AMRAAMs.

Unless avionics on a/c has been developed to guide weapon omniattacking enemy everywhere, dogfight will be still present in future air-combat.
So-called "THERE HAVE BEEN NO DOGFIGHTS SINCE THE KOREAN WAR!" is completely wrong, because there has been dogfight in vietnam war although USAF take all air-dominance there.



According to demonstration done by Su-47 in public airshow, no evidence prove it has more agility or maneuverability over F-22, although FSW perhaps give it more lift-coefficient per square meter wing but wing area of the F-22 larger than 78 square meter, so there is no superiority Su-47 has taken otherwise its inlet design seem to be old fashion indeed.



You are warm welcome more than others if you can prove Su-47 HAS UNLIMITED A0A capability. I have watched videos many times, the Su-47 did normal turn even slower than F-18, comparatively, turn rate showed by Rafale A could be 45 degrees per second!




I'll reply that thread if I get more free time. What I have to point out here is that Cobra is nothing but other Post-stall maneuver developed from Cobra. As I have said above, unless you got omni-attack capability, post-stall maneuver still will be only way to kill. I have seen Russian jet fitted with Omnidirectional Vector Thrust did some actions which could be used same as Herbst maneuver that only done by X-31,although I've been seeking the prove show F-16MATV and F-18HARV can do it also, but I am failed I am afraid.


VERY GOOD POINT! UNLESS ITS EW HAS BEEN REDUCED TO 12 TON OR LESS.

There is no "if", mechanically, 3D VT has been impossible to fit with F-35, which is why we call it attacker rather than fighter, LM also is ready to redefine it.

By the way, I want to know why EF did in airshow which seem to be so mediocre?