It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Athiest society? why not loot! (designed this way)

page: 3
5
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 11:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
SaturnFX,
You are far too inteligent and sophisticated to indulge in such tactics and wordplay.

I used to play Dungeons & Dragons. Love the game. And in those terms,
and to counter the inverted nature of the quote above, I'll put it this way.

Say there are only 3 levels.
    Level 1: Faith based institutions
    Level 2: Secular
    Level 3: Athiest


By deleting level 1 from society,
how is anyone ever supposed to make it to level 2?

What are all the quotes by the looters saying?
They don't care, and don't want to go to school.

See what I'm saying?

/a little intimidated
David Grouchy


Sounds to me like typical youth to me. I wanted stuff, I did bad things as a teen, I would have probably been swayed to wander around

and yes, I was a christian until my mid 20s...just because I did bad things didn't remove me from the forgivness of god...actually, since I was of catholic background, all that was required was to confess now and then and voila.

What your saying is anyone whom is youthful = not a christian because they sin, they fall short of god...I think you even know the issue with this.

Atheism isn't a removal of any morality...actually the opposite, it is realizing there is nobody to absolve you of your sins beyond yourself and your actions...I cannot take comfort in the fact that God forgives me when I come to my senses...I have to go out and make things right personally..why? because even without a deity, I know what is right and wrong, I know I personally hate making others feel bad, and doing crimes and such do just that.

And most atheists I know personally and even online have the same outlook..

What good is having a ferrari if everyone hates you...Atheists (over 20ish) are all for community and friendship...and since we don't have jesus riding shotgun, we have to be of good quality towards our neighbor...this is human psychology 101. (everyone needs a friend)

Now, when I look at the riots, I see a mix of people...some fed up and trying to send a message, some opportunists, etc...most of them youth. Incidently, many over in the UK (arguably equal to the US) do believe in a god, they just don't believe in going to church...and in case you haven't noticed, churches are missing the 50 and under crowd in the US also.

I quite like playing Dungeons and Dragons also.
You mention the levels.
The institutions are always there...level 1 is starting and common...as a child, you believe in all sorts of weird and unique things.
But, I think we are all gaining experience collectively to start rising through the levels..dropping the level 1 belief system in favor of more knowledge..a greater level. Some won't...some choose not to gain experience, and so remain low level.

I don't believe in God, and since I made that statement many years back, I have gained and enhanced my morality far greater than any religion could ever try to hold over me.

Now...lets call these riots for what they are
The durned youth of today have no respect for their elders!!! -shakes cane at them-




posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 11:57 AM
link   
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


This is in reference to your third post. It is an airolite used in drug smuggling. Notice the symbols?

edit on 11-8-2011 by Agarta because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

No, they don't have internal morals built up. [color=gold] Which Christianity is at some fault for. These looters are either people incapable of morality (even if they're christians), or they weren't raised in a way that let them develop their own morality(possibly due to being taught not to sin instead of taught to have morals).


From what I understand they are moral to their own small gang. And no one else.

But If the decision is to blame Christianity for the looter's lack of a larger social understanding,
then fine. Do that. Or question the leaders of Athiesm on what we can do to solve this.

But either way, don't let the Athiests pretend this isn't entirely their desaster and something they should have been able to predict. Because the Christians have been predicting it for thousands of years now. For centuries. For Generations. For decades. And for years, right here on ATS.

The only prediction that I have been seing from Athiests is that
erasing all religion will solve-everything.

London is, by far, the Athiest center of the western world.

So step up, or admit failure.
But don't pretend some of us don't see you pretending it's not an issue you choose to tackle at this time.


David Grouchy
edit on 11-8-2011 by davidgrouchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:01 PM
link   
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


The Bible is strictly clear that even nature teaches that there is right and wrongs. So, even an Atheist might figure out some of it without a God. but they'd have no real reason to feel conviction over it.

Personally, I don't have the heart to kill. Take away God, that will always remain true. But there are some things I wouldn't feel the urge to do if I didn't believe. Having compassion for those with a different viewpoint is one thing that would be gone--mostly because I'm one of those intelligent people that has a hard time relating to those who plain can't keep up with me. I really have to remind myself that slow does not equal dumb, nor does wrong equal stupid. This is a failure that I may have to work on for the rest of my life.

Can you admit to your failures as easily?



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Now...lets call these riots for what they are
The durned youth of today have no respect for their elders!!! -shakes cane at them-


A long and thoughtful post,
well written, and worth reading slowly to ponder every word.
I wish I could star it twice. And you are right about the value of Atheism.

/ I plead no contest


David Grouchy



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


This is in reference to your third post. It is an airolite used in drug smuggling. Notice the symbols?


Yes, I do.
But if they were official they would be blue, not black.
And the stamps would be of much higher quality, not hand drawn in marker.


David Grouchy



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:14 PM
link   

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel

Can you admit to your failures as easily?



Yes. I'm a failure.







So is that it?

We're down to counter attacking
by digging up dirty laundry on other religions.

No evidence of the Athiests' solution to instilling
greater social responsibility in the people pushed
to the edges of society?


David Grouchy



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by CynicalDrivel
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


The Bible is strictly clear that even nature teaches that there is right and wrongs. So, even an Atheist might figure out some of it without a God. but they'd have no real reason to feel conviction over it.

Nobody has to feel conviction over right and wrong, and the believe or lack of belief in a deity doesn't change that much at all.
Murder, yes...thats a bad thing for obvious reasons, other aspects, such as thieving took time for me to understand why it sucks (aka, having my stuff stolen = lame).
I would venture to say that experience is the best teacher overall..be it yours, or someone elses passed down.



Personally, I don't have the heart to kill. Take away God, that will always remain true. But there are some things I wouldn't feel the urge to do if I didn't believe.

Then that is the person you are, and a deity holding you back from your true nature is false.
If you want to proclaim your the most interesting and intelligent person on earth, do so...and as I said, experience will surely be the best teacher.
There will always be someone faster, smarter, stronger than you and the second you climb up on a pedistal, prepare for a fairly quick knockdown...
With humility comes wisdom.

For now, pretending to be something your not will only subconsciously reinforce your supressed self importance...I say do the opposite...scream at others, point out and laugh at their failures, and watch how things change (aka, watch how someone a bit faster than you knocks you on your proverbial arse just to prove a point)


Can you admit to your failures as easily?


Would be easier to list the things I am great at verses the things I fail at frankly.

But anyhow, in regards to morality...well, my morality is different than a christians (obviously). I have no issue with how people live their lives. A gay person to me is just a person whom likes something I don't. Seeing them as somehow immoral would be equal to me seeing someone whom puts anchovi's on their pizza as immoral (they are btw...yuck!)

Other things like say, Abortion comes down to a philosophical and scientific quagmire..when does life start..I go with biology and the more "what is life" type discussion, etc...(experience..and experience comes with a brain recieving information..aka, central nervous system "turning on")

But anyhow, ya, be yourself, experience in life will sort you out as to what works well with you, and what doesn't work well. You think if there is a god, he will accept you for being something you didn't want to be only to appease him? If its not in your core, then its not you, and you can't fake it in front of a deity...he sort of see's through such things.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:34 PM
link   
there will always be evil morons what trash things for kicks, but this stuff in London is exceptional.

Grouchy is right, as is Johnnybgood. we take Christianity and Christian values from our schools and our culture (entertainment media, e.g.) and replace them with...what? evolution? 'you're nothing but an ape with consciousness, your life has no purpose, and oh your consumption is destroying the planet.'

Christianity values respect for God and fellow man. how do you convince an atheist or evolutionist to respect others? what's the motivation? from where do values stem?

and while many past wars are blamed on Christianity (and more rightly due to nationalist squabbling with religious themes as a veneer to hide true purposes), there's no doubt that atheistic/paganist beliefs (Marxism, Naziism, Fascism) caused the worst wars and deaths in the 20th century.
edit on 11-8-2011 by works4dhs because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:42 PM
link   
reply to post by CynicalDrivel
 


1. Social, Internal(guilt), legal, and many others are strong ways to enforce laws. Of course, you're acting like atheists don't have these either.

The difference though, is that the punishment with this is immediate. These punishments train us to strengthen our moral compass. When other's perceive our actions as wrong, it helps us see it when we don't. Our guilt after doing something against it strengthens our resolve against doing it again. The law, while flawed, makes people understand consequences to their actions. Of course, I think our (U.S) legal system is too focused on using excessive punishment as a deterrent, and should have more focus on rehabilitating criminals. In other words, helping them realign their compasses.

2. This is simple. Morality does not come from religion. That's the one of the worsts misunderstandings out there. Hearing others ideas and logic helps us reexamine our moral sense in new lights, and get better with it.

Atheism is the most logical belief system to talk about morals over. Because, atheists don't have a unified moral code. Instead, they find it in different locations grounded in the real world. It's not a debate as atheists from what's moral, it's as humans.

-
Compared to christianity, where the only moral debate is what parts of the bible to take seriously anymore. Make raped women marry the rapist? Um, no, that goes against modern morals. Gay people are bad for how they're born? Maybe, depends on the sect. Thou show not kill? Yeah, keep that one for sure.

People use their internal compasses when deciphering the bible. Only proving farther that it's an internal compass that guides us mostly, not a book.

3. Do you need god to try to better yourself? Change yourself, control what you can't. If you need the support of an idea to do that, fine. But many people can work on bettering themselves without doing it because big daddy in the sky says so. It's fallacious for you to say they can't, or even that they don't want to, simply because they rely on other senses than an unsensable entity.

~
Here's two videos, I strongly recommend watching. They are from a non-religious standpoint, you won't agree with the message. But it may be beneficial to see some of the standpoints of the people mudsling at, instead of arguing out of nothing but personal misunderstandings.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:45 PM
link   
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


I'm sorry, but the dude in that video is a asshat...lol he gave that girl the run around and didn't answer her question.......



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:49 PM
link   
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


Also if you wanna bash Atheism than why not bash Christianity as well? the bible says it's okay to kill people and marry young girls, many Christians see themselves better than others, and I bet you that alot of those looters are Christian or at least believe in a god, yet you chose to say that it's the Ashiest fault...psh if it wasn't for your phony God we would all probably be on mars right now enjoying unity and one love.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 12:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by works4dhs
and replace them with...what? evolution? 'you're nothing but an ape with consciousness, your life has no purpose, and oh your consumption is destroying the planet.'

Ethics...you replace it with ethics (which is also not being successfully taught in school incidently).
My life has purpose incidently, even if I am just a smart ape.
And overconsumption is hurting standards of living globally...does that somehow make you feel apathetic?



Christianity values respect for God and fellow man. how do you convince an atheist or evolutionist to respect others? what's the motivation? from where do values stem?

Easy really:
Atheists...don't murder people, because they die, and you wouldn't want someone to murder you...
Also, it causes pain in the surviving familys. If you instead become helpful, people generally become quite happy and like you.

Should work on most..however, some are thick and require prison first.

Values stem from the brain, along with the rest of the thoughts



and while many past wars are blamed on Christianity (and more rightly due to nationalist squabbling with religious themes as a veneer to hide true purposes), there's no doubt that atheistic/paganist beliefs (Marxism, Naziism, Fascism) caused the worst wars and deaths in the 20th century.
edit on 11-8-2011 by works4dhs because: (no reason given)


According to you
Christianity started wars...but not because of christianity...this was because of nations squabbling and power

Atheists started wars...but...because they are atheists, not because of the nations squabbling and power.

Surely you just said that last bit for a laugh...right? I mean, You seem bright enough..you learned how to use a computer, you realize then that you just said perhaps one of the most hypocritical things I have seen so far today..rethink that.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by works4dhs
and replace them with...what? evolution? 'you're nothing but an ape with consciousness, your life has no purpose, and oh your consumption is destroying the planet.'

Ethics...you replace it with ethics (which is also not being successfully taught in school incidently).
My life has purpose incidently, even if I am just a smart ape.
And overconsumption is hurting standards of living globally...does that somehow make you feel apathetic?



Christianity values respect for God and fellow man. how do you convince an atheist or evolutionist to respect others? what's the motivation? from where do values stem?

Easy really:
Atheists...don't murder people, because they die, and you wouldn't want someone to murder you...
Also, it causes pain in the surviving familys. If you instead become helpful, people generally become quite happy and like you.

Should work on most..however, some are thick and require prison first.

Values stem from the brain, along with the rest of the thoughts



and while many past wars are blamed on Christianity (and more rightly due to nationalist squabbling with religious themes as a veneer to hide true purposes), there's no doubt that atheistic/paganist beliefs (Marxism, Naziism, Fascism) caused the worst wars and deaths in the 20th century.
edit on 11-8-2011 by works4dhs because: (no reason given)


According to you
Christianity started wars...but not because of christianity...this was because of nations squabbling and power

Atheists started wars...but...because they are atheists, not because of the nations squabbling and power.

Surely you just said that last bit for a laugh...right? I mean, You seem bright enough..you learned how to use a computer, you realize then that you just said perhaps one of the most hypocritical things I have seen so far today..rethink that.


1) again, what is the motivation? 'stealing is wrong.' 'why?' 'we must respect property blah blah blah'. obviously not every non-Christian is a violent thief but what's happening in the London streets is the inevitable result of an atheistic values system (public schools, media). it is impossible to instill long-term mass-population values on such a flimsy foundation.

2) the holocaust was the direct idealogical result of anti-Christian pagans in power. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot deliberately killed, or allowed to die, millions of their own people based on crackpot Marxist doctrine. there is no Christian equivalent to this.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:02 PM
link   
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


There are no leaders of Atheism. And Atheism isn't there to define morality. Atheism doesn't condone immorality, nor does it promote it.

That's like blaming murder on vegetarians because their beliefs are only regarding animals. Vegetarians morality outside of eating meat, comes from other sources. Just because vegetarianism doesn't touch the topic, doesn't mean vegetarianism is to blame.

Is immorality a problem? Yes. Is atheism the cause of immorality though? No. Does Christianity cause morality? Usually only when the person was a moral person without a problem anyways.

Atheism is, exclusively, a lack of belief in one or more gods. It's grounded in reality, not made to decide morality. And since it says nothing regarding morality, it opens gateways to use non-religious reasons for morality.

I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

~
Those two videos I recommended to CynicalDrivel, you should check them out too.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:04 PM
link   
reply to post by davidgrouchy
 


Another idiot. I'm an atheist and I'm not about to loot anything. Also, the churches loot the church goer.... They ask for 10% of your earnings and say it will guarantee your spot in heaven. They are looting millions of people on a daily basis... and those people that give their 10% lose their homes and CONTINUE to give 10%.

But it's atheism's fault? Also, you are sooooooooo wrong by making the assumption that all the looters aren't the "church goer" type. Have you ever been to church? It's FULL of criminals. Drug addicts, drug dealers, murderers, thieves, alcoholics, sex offenders, etc... etc... The people looking for "forgiveness" on Friday for the crimes they committed on Thursday.

The bottom line is, theism doesn't fight crime, people do horrible things due to an uncountable amount of variables....

This is fact. This is why us atheist constantly laugh at you "theists." You guys don't think -- you just speak.

P.S.

Looting and riots are caused by CIVIL UNREST and has ALWAYS occurred throughout history... You just aren't educated... The looting jusssssst might have something to do with EU's financial problems... and the fact they they are going broke faster than us.

Has nothing to do with religious belief... it has everything to do with political unrest.
edit on 11-8-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
. . . it opens gateways to use non-religious reasons for morality.



Like - - I am solely responsible for my own integrity and behavior?

Not - - I can blame it on an imaginary devil - - then get forgiveness from an imaginary man with the title god.

I prefer my integrity without the imaginary safety net.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
. . . it opens gateways to use non-religious reasons for morality.



Like - - I am solely responsible for my own integrity and behavior?

Not - - I can blame it on an imaginary devil - - then get forgiveness from an imaginary man with the title god.

I prefer my integrity without the imaginary safety net.


Noooooo #. If anything Religion creates criminals because it gives them the ultimate reasoning. "The devil made me do it." Just take a look at CHAAAAAAARLEEE, Mr. Manson.

P.S.

Morality isn't created by religion. This argument is so stupid. Morality is built in by the mechanism known as "Self Preservation." I don't murder people because I don't want to be murdered. I don't rob from people because I don't want to lose my stuff. I don't cheat on my g/f's because I don't want them cheating on me. I also discovered that team work yields better results... therefore, if I go at something with a network of people -- there is a considerable chance it will reap better rewards.. and as such -- stipulates community... Which is even more of a reason not to kill/steal/harm members of my community.

Where does Religion even fit into the origins of Morality? I was raised in a catholic school... I was beat up bullied and picked on... by the employees of the school as well as other students. So much for God being an advocate of morality... right?

The one thing my stay in theist schools proved to me is -- it stops people from truly understanding the things that go on in life... and it brainwashes them to ignore the facts and to recite canned responses.

I.E.

It doesn't teach morality at all, it teaches the art of "God will forgive you" and that "Satan's temptation is to strong to avoid." It also teaches people to do moronic things and avoid real hard evidence like the cause for looting in this very thread... It literally has nothing to do with theism... and everything to do with social politicking. However, the people who have been brainwashed by the church set off on a tangent literally creating a segregation amongst man.

We don't need to fight each other, we need to be friends... however, the OP has now started a "war" with non-theist and as such will carry this prejuduice over into his daily activities causing more social and civil unrest.

It's like saying "Black people created the LA riots." So it's ALL BLACK PEOPLE'S FAULT. If you follow that line of thinking than you'd be a racist and condone the lynching of honest people for no other reason than they have a different skin pigment. The real answer was, social unrest...
edit on 11-8-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by works4dhs

1) again, what is the motivation? 'stealing is wrong.' 'why?' 'we must respect property blah blah blah'. obviously not every non-Christian is a violent thief but what's happening in the London streets is the inevitable result of an atheistic values system (public schools, media). it is impossible to instill long-term mass-population values on such a flimsy foundation.

2) the holocaust was the direct idealogical result of anti-Christian pagans in power. Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot deliberately killed, or allowed to die, millions of their own people based on crackpot Marxist doctrine. there is no Christian equivalent to this.


1. The biblical god allows slavery, and the oppression of women. It doesn't say anything about electronic piracy, being a reckless driver, child porn, or being a crack addict. Nothing against torturing non-human animals. Never says wars need to be for a justified reason.

Why are these wrong then? You say that you can't have motivation to find something immoral without god, does this mean that these things actually can't be immoral?

2. You leave out the person who actually instructed the Holocaust, Catholic Hitler. Who used the jews non-acceptance of jesus as one of his demonization selling points to get the christian populace ok with persecuting them. Along with most of the nazi's doing the killing being christian.

And there's a lot more examples of christians tyranny. Crusades, Knights Templar, KKK, it's a lengthy list. Those don't just didn't happen because you say they didn't.

Also, the communist leaders were geniuses. Geniuses tend to be atheists. Anyways, these people weren't immoral out of atheism. or atheists because they were immoral. They had greed for power. and used the intelligence they had(same intelligence that lead to atheism), to do damage.

Compare to the amount of people killed, not only by christians, but in the name of Christianity. Tell me, how many people have ever been killed, in the name of atheism?



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 01:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by Annee
Like - - I am solely responsible for my own integrity and behavior?

Not - - I can blame it on an imaginary devil - - then get forgiveness from an imaginary man with the title god.

I prefer my integrity without the imaginary safety net.


Exactly, Annee. You're responsible from an atheistic view.

On top of that, you can subscribe to different philosophical and moral views to strengthen you're integrity. You can reach for whatever helps you the best, without needing to believe a god made the rules up.

I prefer not having an imaginary safety net too. Having something like that only would weaken my morals over time. Better to deal with things as they are when they happen. Not sugar coat reality to make it easier to get over being burdened by your misdeeds.



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join