Man claims PAN AM flight logs show baby Obama flew with parents from Kenya to Hawaii

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
The man has done more to cover up any trace of his past; more so than any other president who came before him.

just how has he covered up traces of his past?

Please show the records you want from Obama for all previous Presidents - if you are unable to that makes your statement very stupid!

reply to post by spoor


Use the search feature.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
reply to post by spoor

 

Use the search feature.

So, as expected, you are unable to show the records from all previous Presidents that you demand Obama show... funny that!

Originally posted by fleabit

I'll gladly give some pdf's some credence...but not a .pdf file with inexplicable layers, kerning that didn't exist when the document was supposedly typed, multiple font types from one type writer, misspellings in the rubber stamp that didn't exist in other stamps at that time, a smiley face hidden in the doctor's name, mathematically perfect signatures, out of sequence registration numbers, haloing around the letters, no sign of an official stamp, and a pdf that magically appeared after the governor of HI and Obama both said the document simply didn't exist at all.

With all of those errors and inconsistencies, do you HONESTLY believe the document shown in that pdf is a scan of a 1961 birth certificate? If so, I'll gladly send you a .pdf of this court order I happen to have which demands that you send me $1,000,000 or face jail time. (just don't examine it or ask to see the original, ok?)

edit on 8/12/2011 by MiloNickels because: (no reason given)

And YOU honestly believe that the President, with all the lettered services at his disposal.. CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.. released such a laughably and horribly done hoax instead of the real deal? I'd like to think he would have the best services at creating false documents at his disposal. Not something a highschool student could put together in an afternoon, as you seem to think is what happened.

No.. it couldn't be that the "experts" who claim it's a hoax are WRONG.. could it.

a) In your own reply you refer to the document released by Obama as a "laughably and horribly done hoax".

b) Simply because the alphabet agencies could have made a far better forgery than the one Obama presented, doesn't change the fact that the one he presented is a "laughably and horribly done hoax".

c) It's easy to postulate that the experts are wrong, but what are you basing that on? You aren't basing it on any opposing experts, because there are none. The only thing that even comes close are that some experts have explained the layers...but none have been able to explain the kerning, the sequence errors, the typo in the stamp, etc... These "birther" experts have offered detailed analysis, years of expertise in their respective fields, and logical conclusions that the document released by Obama was fake. I love how you put the word "experts" in quotes. Have you read their pedigrees? They are people who write books on how to use adobe software, businessmen who have worked in the field of typesetting for more than 20 years, etc... A judge would certainly allow them to be classified as experts, capable of testifying in a court of law. What makes you so high and mighty to dismiss them simply because you don't like what they are saying? (Especially without any proof or experts on your side to shut them down)

d) Maybe Obama didn't even ask anyone to create a forgery for him. Maybe some moron thought they would "help" Obama if they snuck a forged document into the file for him. Both Obama and Abercrombie said it didn't exist...then it magically appeared. Perhaps THEY were fooled when someone tried to help them out by "finding it"... Kinda like replacing your kid's hamster that died. When they don't notice and introduce Mr. Fluffy (who isn't really mister fluffy) to their friends... THEY aren't necessarily lying.

e) Do you really think he could go to the FBI or CIA and ask for help usurping the US Government? That's like a wolf asking the chickens to help him convince everyone he's also a chicken. It doesn't work like that. Those agencies are BIG and something like that would certainly leak out--assuming they would say "sure...we'll help you usurp the presidency". When you pull off a lie as HUGE as this one, you kinda have to rely on those closest to you--and those people most likely won't have the technical savvy to create an iron clad electronic forgery.

f) Let's assume Obama did release a pdf of the real birth certificate and all the errors pointed out by the experts are a strange one in a million combination of natural anomalies. Why not end this debate once and for all by allowing someone to conduct a thorough forensic document analysis/carbon dating on the original? Privacy is no longer an issue because he released it for all to see on the internet. There is no reason NOT to put this issue to be once and for all if the pdf was real.

If a supermodel was always featured on the cover of magazines and appeared to be flawlessly gorgeous, but wore a mask every time she was in public and went out of her way to never let anyone see her face in person (other than her photographer), you would logically expect that her photos are somehow enhanced or airbrushed. You would reasonably suspect that she isn't REALLY as flawless as she appears to be in the magazines. You don't even REALLY know what she looks like at all!!!

Good deeds are done in the light.

You have to wonder what blemishes Obama is hiding when he will only let people examine a highly suspect digital image of that document. Take off the mask and show us that you belong on the cover of the magazine!!!!!

If a cop pulls you over he will not accept a pdf image of your drivers license as iron-clad proof you have a driver's license. You have to produce the real deal. And, you only have a broken tail light on your car!!!

if obama and his parents were in kenya and came back here when he was 5 months old, why is there no stamp on their visas????????no stamp because it didn't happen, what part of this is so hard to understand???

this is so ridiculous, and those that believe when the facts^ have been posted many times in this thread, it just makes you look like fools

reply to post by spoor


So, as expected, a blatant supporter of Obama is unwilling to do any real research for themselves. Typical liberal who wants everything handed to them.

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by MiloNickels
who's grandmother publicly claims she was present when he was born in a foreign country,

birther lie, she never claimed that

who uses multiple aliases,

wrong again

who uses multiple social security numbers,

birther lie

who's most commonly used social security number is from a state they never resided in,

another birther story, SS numbers are NOT entirely state based

who's classmates can't remember going to school with him

yet another birther lie

who released one fake birth certificate on his website while he was campaigning

birther lie

and another obvious fake this year,

still a birther lie

who paid over $2M to seal hide all the records from his past

birther lie (just how do you seal documents that are private anyway?)

who claimed a document did NOT exist (before he "released it"),

stil another birther lie!

etc...etc...etc...

and the birther lies contimue! Why do you persist in posting those lies, they have all been shown to be lies many time here and elsewhere?

I will be the first inline to decry him, question his eligibility, and demand full disclosure of any substantial proof before I trust him.

except you never demanded the same from all previous presidents, funny how none of them were black, but as soon as the first black president comes along you post lies about him....

how dare you make this a race issue?

because to a lot of birthers IT IS a race issue!

I notice that you conveniently left off the item about Obama's father not being a US citizen. Strange. This fact alone, disqualifies him from being president regardless of where he was born. When they examined McCain's citizenship status in 2008 (yes...they did subject a white man to similar scrutiny), in a measure that was cosponsored by Obama himself. John McCain was determined to be eligible because he was born in a US controlled military base to citizen parents. yes...parents with an S...PLURAL...he is natural born because BOTH of his parentSSSS were US citizens. This is FACT.

OK... let's pretend that everyone of those issues is a "birther lie". NONE of the arguments they present has anything to do with race. Even if these "lies" were invented by "racists"...the rest of us (who have heard them, believe that they sound plausible, and want hard proof to dispel them) have no racial agenda.

If a hard-core, rabidly racist KKK member invented a story that my house was on fire, should I ignore it (because he's racist) or should I at least take the time to make sure my house isn't really on fire? If I do check my house to make sure it's safe, does that make me a racist?

Other presidents have not been challenged on their place of birth because it wasn't a point of vagueness and contention for them. This issue is unique to Obama--just as Watergate was unique to Nixon and Monica Lewinski was unique to Bill Clinton. Bellyaching that other presidents didn't have their citizenship status questioned is like pointing out that Ronald Regan was never grilled about Watergate (which means it was unfair to Tricky Dick) or Obama was never forced to answer any questions about Monica Lewinski (which made that issue unfair for Slick Willy).

I'd like to point out that, although Nixon was the ONLY president to ever be questioned about Watergate, and Clinton was the ONLY president to be questioned about Lewinski...no one viewed this as discriminatory treatment because they were white. They deserved to have those questions asked, just as Obama deserves to have his citizenship questioned.

All presidents, throughout history, have had to face difficult, and unique, questions about their pasts. Some have had to answer questions about infidelity, or drug use, or alcohol abuse, etc. etc. etc... Obama's unique issue is his place of birth...not because he's black, but because he's president.

Originally posted by MiloNickels
I notice that you conveniently left off the item about Obama's father not being a US citizen. Strange. This fact alone, disqualifies him from being president regardless of where he was born.

And you never told us why you posted so many lies.... and again the claim that obama's father had to be a US citizen for him to be natural born is just another birther lie! When will you stop telling lies here?

OK... let's pretend that everyone of those issues is a "birther lie".

no need to pretend, they are all birther lies.

NONE of the arguments they present has anything to do with race.

that is simply because some birthers want to avoid being called racists as well, even though they are!

Even if these lies were invented by racists

They were!

the rest of us (who have heard them, believe that they sound plausible, and want hard proof to dispel them) have no racial agenda.

yes you do actually - when has Obama's grandmother ever claimed he was born in Kenya?

or should I at least take the time to make sure my house isn't really on fire?

but in the case of the birther lies you posted you never even bothered checking valid sources, as if you had bothered to check you would have known that they were in fact lies!

Other presidents have not been challenged on their place of birth because it wasn't a point of vagueness and contention for them.

nor is it for Obama - it is just a point the racist birthers bring up as they cannot accept a black man being the legal preident

This issue is unique to Obama

Except there is no real issue - his grandmother, the birth announcements in the paper, his 2 types of birth certificates all say he was born in Hawaii - and all the birthers can produce is a forged Kenyan birth certificate!

, just as Obama deserves to have his citizenship questioned.

Why does he? There is zero evidence he was born anywhere other than in Hawaii....

Obama's unique issue is his place of birth...not because he's black, but because he's president.

Except there is no issue about his place of birth in the real world - it is only a issue in the fantasy world birthers live in, a world where no black man will ever be president!

reply to post by spoor


You are so wrong. You know many T Partiers like Herman Cain because he sticks with the Constitution, unlike Obama. Yes, it does make a difference that his father was a Kenyan born under British Rule. Even the Kenyan parliament said Bama is Kenyan.

... and again the claim that obama's father had to be a US citizen for him to be naturally born is just another birther lie! When will you stop telling lies here?

First..."naturally born" is not a term. I'm sure he was naturally born, unless he was grown in a test-tube. He is not a natural born citizen--according to his own criteria. According to Obama's own co-sponsored bill, John McCain had to meet two criteria to be considered a natural born citizen--those criteria being a) born on US controlled land and b) born to US citizen parents. Are you saying that you disagree with Obama that those are the requirements to be a natural born citizen? Are you saying that Obama, himself, is perpetuating a "birther lie" about the natural born citizen criteria? (or did only Obama's white half co-sponsor that?) Is Obama somehow ABOVE the natural born citizen criteria that HE HIMSELF cosponsored?

but in the case of the birther lies you posted you never even bothered checking valid sources, as if you had bothered to check you would have known that they were in fact lies!

We can't check the "valid sources" because Obama initially paid $2M+ to hide them, then he said they don't exist, then he released a pdf file rather than the actual paper and ink documents... WE WANT TO EXAMINE THE VALID SOURCES...

The only person who keeps bringing up race is YOU... who's the racist?

How long are you going to ignore that John McCain had his citizenship questioned by OBAMA? Or is John McCain secretly black too?

As long as you use the term "naturally born" and cry racism (while ignoring the fact that a white man, named John McCain, was scrutinized for the same issue) you have absolutely NO credibility.

Do yourself a favor and read the Senate Resolution which deemed John McCain a natural born citizen.

www.govtrack.us...

As you read it ask yourself if Obama meets the requirements that John McCain had to meed... In particular, pay attention to this one:

"Whereas John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens" (plural)

If these are the criteria that John McCain had to meet, wouldn't they also be the criteria that everyone else (including Obama) have to meet? Or did they go extra hard after McCain (presumably because he's white)?

reply to post by MiloNickels


lol Great response! I love it hahah test tube bama

Originally posted by MiloNickels
We can't check the "valid sources" because Obama initially paid $2M+ to hide them

Except that claim by itself is just a birther lie - when will you stop telling lies?

How did Obama cover up his grandmother stating he was born in hawaii?

WE WANT TO EXAMINE THE VALID SOURCES...

Funny how you never wanted to examing the "valid sources" of all the past white presidents, but as soon as a black man is elected you claim you want to examine valid sources....

and you have yet to explain why Obama has to spend any money at all to hide his past documents - i havent spent any money and you are unable to obtain my personal records either - a fact birthers ignore! care to show us exactly where obama has spent money to cover his past - remember that his lawyer is working pro-bono...

who's the racist?

you are, and some other birthers!

www.govtrack.us...

you ignore the fact that that also states....

Whereas the term `natural born Citizen', as that term appears in Article II, Section 1, is not defined in the Constitution of the United States;

So where does the law state that both parents have to be citizens....

It doesnt, it is just something racist birthers try and use to imply the first black president is not legal, as that fact really upsets them!

reply to post by spoor


Except there is no issue about his place of birth in the real world - it is only a issue in the fantasy world birthers live in, a world where no black man will ever be president!

Hilarious.. the "real world" comes from the internet and television...eh?

People on TV and articles on the internet can describe what an Orange tastes like.. but in the "real world" one must investigate... eat an Orange.

Some people on TV and the internet say he was born "over here", others claim it was "over there".. we tax slaves who weren't there can't possibly know.. we can choose to believe one side, or the other.

An open fair legal process... will never happen.. that wades through the spin, propaganda and feculent political muck from BOTH sides might reveal an answer , maybe.. until then, it's intellectually retarded for anyone to claim they "know" what the "facts" are..

fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com...

reply to post by MiloNickels


First off, "natural-born" is a term, and it's used in the constitution. Natural Born, as in an attribute by birthright. You're born in America you are given citizenship by birthright. You are born to one American parent you are an American citizen by birthright.

Aside from the slightly off-topic discussion of what natural born means, the $64 dollar question the birthers in this thread are conveniently failing to address is why Obama Sr. shows no entry or exit stamp in his visa that the promoter of this latest birther lie claims concurs with the time frame of said alleged flight. If Obama Sr. flew from Kenya to the USA or from Kenya to anywhere, there would be a record of it in his visa (the record of which has, as mentioned several times already, been obtained by Heather Smathers in a FOIA request of Obama Sr. immigration papers).

Well, birthers? Care to answer that? Or will we go back to the straw man argument about what "natural born" means, and then infer that such arguments should be applied to Obama even though he was born in the Hawaii, as has been demonstrated many times over.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by MiloNickels

 

First off, "natural-born" is a term, and it's used in the constitution. Natural Born, as in an attribute by birthright. You're born in America you are given citizenship by birthright. You are born to one American parent you are an American citizen by birthright.

How do you O-bots keep ignoring and twisting the fact that the US Constitution says you MUST be a natural born citizen in order to be president. Sure, if he was born in HI to one american parent, he's a US citizen. But merely being a citizen is not enough to be eligible for president. You MUST be a "natural born citizen". This 3 word-phrase constitutes a specific legal definition--where you must meet certain criteria (born on US property to citizen parents). You can't cherry pick, alter, and minimize the phrase, or the meaning of this phrase, while maintaining any level of intellectual honesty or integrity. "Natural born", "naturally born", "Naturally born citizen", "US citizen"...etc...etc...etc...are not the same thing as "natural born citizen"--please stop pretending they are.

True, the constitution doesn't define the term "natural born citizen", as pointed out in John McCain's senate hearing. This is why they had the hearing--to interpret this missing definition. The fact that it isn't defined in the constitution is meaningless because they defined it for us in that senate hearing. According to their own interpretation, and the criteria they ultimately used to vet McCain, when the Constitution uses the legal term "natural born citizen" it means: born on us property to citizen parents.

Furthermore. How can you say Obama is receiving unfair scrutiny over his citizenship when he never had to face a senate hearing on it? He get's picked on by internet bloggers, authors, and some radio hosts. John McCain had to answer to the entire US Senate!!!! And, since they never put ANY black candidates through a similar senate hearing, I think they only put McCain through this hearing because he's white.

reply to post by axslinger


Oh, I understand that. Just insisted on pointing out that there's plenty of Birthers who are not at all racist. Yes some are.

And I was for OJ winning the case, for all that I believe he is a murderer. "If the Glove don't fit, you must aquit!" Seriously, the whole concept of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is why he got off. If he couldn't wear the glove, there's reason to dobut he's the murderer. If the contextual witness that insists he did it is a crackpot that can't string 2 truths together, there's reason to doubt he's a murderer. If the cop is known to not follow the chain of evidence, there's reason to doubt he's a murderer. If you don't let the murderers go when there's reasonable doubt, you'll jail the innocent for the same excuse.

Originally posted by MarshMallow_Snake
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

As much as I am not a fan of Obama, here is my question...and maybe I need a better understanding, so please help me out.

Since his Mom was a citizen, wouldn't he be a citizen too? I assume they were married, but I am not up to date on that:

"For persons born between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true (except if born out-of-wedlock):

1 - The person's parents were married at the time of birth
2 - One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person was born
3 - The citizen parent lived at least ten years in the United States before the child's birth;
A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday."

Marriage murky:
www.bing.com...

As his mom was 18 when Obama was born, she's 1 year shy of #3. But these rules only apply to those who are born outside the country, if I remember correctly.
snopes.com...

how the heck did this one double post?!?

Originally posted by karen61057
reply to post by spinkyboo

 

Funny how this integrity never came into play with all the white presidents. None of them were ever asked over and over to produce a BC beyond the initial screening process that is used for all candidates. ( including Mr Obama ). So one can assume that the reason why this president is asked this over and over is because he is viewed as some kind of pretender. Whether that is because of the color of his skin or because they think he was born in Kenya ( a country located on the continent of Africa ) it still seems to me that it boils down to the same thing. Why do you think the birthers are so passionate about this ? From what standpoint do they rally?

Now THAT'S just false. Herbert Hoover had similar issuse since he didn't reside on American soil for 14 consecutive years before he ran for president, and John McCain's origin of birth was filed into a lawsuit as well.